Forum - View topic
ANNCast (Video) - Scum As You Are


Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

Note: this is the discussion thread for this article

Anime News Network Forum Index -> Site-related -> Talkback
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Blood-



Joined: 07 Mar 2009
Posts: 20224
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 7:36 pm Reply with quote
Consider your loli scrutinazation challenge accepted! Wink

And I think you are selling me a little short. If you were able to compile a list of several shows that had loli objectification, I would not blow that off. And even if I did blow it off, it would be obvious to other posters that that is what I was doing.

I have some reservations about you as a debater (i.e. your tendenancy to read what you want to read as opposed to what's actually there) but I have seen with my own eyes your willingness to ... if not concede a point, then at least be willing to consider it and modify somewhat your original position. I'm no different. I loathe people who, when faced with convincing evidence, refuse to change their view one iota out of some misplaced sense of ... whatever. I try very hard not to fall into that trap.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime My Manga
Megiddo



Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Posts: 8021
Location: IL
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 7:46 pm Reply with quote
I'll just say that after glancing at the original source material that was adapted for the Twister scene KyoAni did what it could to stay faithful to the source while removing a certain amount of squickiness.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ChibiKangaroo



Joined: 01 Feb 2010
Posts: 2940
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:25 pm Reply with quote
Blood- wrote:
Consider your loli scrutinazation challenge accepted! Wink

And I think you are selling me a little short. If you were able to compile a list of several shows that had loli objectification, I would not blow that off. And even if I did blow it off, it would be obvious to other posters that that is what I was doing.

I have some reservations about you as a debater (i.e. your tendenancy to read what you want to read as opposed to what's actually there) but I have seen with my own eyes your willingness to ... if not concede a point, then at least be willing to consider it and modify somewhat your original position. I'm no different. I loathe people who, when faced with convincing evidence, refuse to change their view one iota out of some misplaced sense of ... whatever. I try very hard not to fall into that trap.


I'll admit that I read between the lines with some anime, but i'm not afraid of doing it. I've been watching anime too long and have seen the same tricks and ideas recycled time and time again. I think I get upset to see anime stagnating in many ways for the last 10+ years while American animation is advancing in leaps and bounds. A lot of people were complaining about Your Name not getting an Oscar nod when we had one of the best years ever for American animation, both from a financial standpoint and from studios just putting out exceptional work. Plus, we have been having somewhat of a renaissance on American television animation that's been going strong for at least six or seven years, with a lot of new solid content or just quality adaptations.

I know you said earlier that there has been a few titles out the last couple seasons in anime that are fresh, but its not enough. Not yet. You may have noticed (or at least those who carefully read my arguments will notice) that when it comes to things like loli, or harem, or whatever else. I try not to criticize the concept behind the sub-genre or archetype, because I do not personally take offense at much content in that way. What disturbs me is the often sloppy and halfassed way that such conventions are used repeatedly, again and again and again. Every time a new season comes out and we have the obligatory slew of titles that slavishly pay homage to the exact same tropes and the same sloppy usage of these conventions, I feel the same urge to start flipping tables.

P.S.

Megiddo's response is now causing such curiosity... just how squicky was this scene in the source material??? ;0
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Chiibi



Joined: 19 Dec 2011
Posts: 4187
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:43 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
Every time a new season comes out and we have the obligatory slew of titles that slavishly pay homage to the exact same tropes and the same sloppy usage of these conventions, I feel the same urge to start flipping tables.


Lol honestly, I don't feel that American TV is really any better.

The only ongoing shows I watch are The Big Bang Theory and Doctor Who.

Yes, American animation has gotten pretty good....but that's also thanks to keeping it clean so all ages can enjoy it.

But there is no need to flip tables over the current anime industry. If the same tropes work for one show, yeah, they are going to use them over and over again. Complaining about it here isn't going to do any good.....so what's the point of getting that angry over it?

Quote:
I've been watching anime too long and have seen the same tricks and ideas recycled time and time again.

I've been watching it even longer than you......but this is going to hold true to ANY type of media you partake in; not just anime.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Blood-



Joined: 07 Mar 2009
Posts: 20224
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 7:50 am Reply with quote
American animation advancing in leaps and bounds? Technically, perhaps, but from a content point of view - at least on the feature film level - American animation has been trapped in the PG family film template for ... well, pretty much forever. Disney invented the genre and no American studio has really broken out of it. Don't ge me wrong, I really enjoy those films and they are incredibly well done but I wouldn't mind a little variety. You can argue that film economics do not encourage attempts at creating purely adult Western feature animation and you'd be right, but it still doesn't alter the fact that narratively there has been absolutely no "advancing in leaps and bounds."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime My Manga
ChibiKangaroo



Joined: 01 Feb 2010
Posts: 2940
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 9:16 am Reply with quote
Blood- wrote:
American animation advancing in leaps and bounds? Technically, perhaps, but from a content point of view - at least on the feature film level - American animation has been trapped in the PG family film template for ... well, pretty much forever. Disney invented the genre and no American studio has really broken out of it. Don't ge me wrong, I really enjoy those films and they are incredibly well done but I wouldn't mind a little variety. You can argue that film economics do not encourage attempts at creating purely adult Western feature animation and you'd be right, but it still doesn't alter the fact that narratively there has been absolutely no "advancing in leaps and bounds."


It's true that American animated feature films have been family friendly, even in recent years, but they have moved far beyond the kids stuff of older years. There has been a clear shift in the narrative depth of American animation over the last decade and a half. Up through the 90s, for example, Disney films tended to be fairy tales or cute animal movies that were largely irrelevant to real life except as a way to push princess merchandise or similar stuff. Nowadays, the movies from every major animation outlet are very relevant to people's lives and address real issues in ways that connect with adults in the audience. Look at last couple years for example: Zootopia was essentially a movie about racism and prejudice, Finding Dory was (apparently - I didn't see that one but it got rave reviews) about dealing with mental disabilities, as was Inside Out. Death has also become more of a theme that is being explored in such movies, Big Hero 6 was a good example of that, and of course who could forget UP, which brought many adult audiences to tears in the first few minutes.

Has American animation already surpassed anime as far as telling more adult stories? No. But it might not be too long before it does. I think American audiences are already beginning to accept the medium as more than just kid's stuff, and all it would take is some visionary and some risk takers who decide to start experimenting further. That envelope was previously pushed by Don Bluth back in the early 80s, but the audience wasn't ready for it back then. They might be now.


P.S. On the specific subject of Don Bluth, I once wrote a term paper tracking his career and noting his similarities to Tezuka. I summarized that while Japanese audiences were more accepting of Tezuka's ideas, American audiences weren't as ready for Bluth's. Most of his movies were called "too dark" by critics, and you can see the results as the sequels to Secret of Nimh, Land Before Time and American Tale all became light, happy fluff and Bluth withdrew his involvement. If he had come into his prime now, I think we would have some pretty amazing stuff. But there will be another Bluth sooner or later.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Blood-



Joined: 07 Mar 2009
Posts: 20224
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 10:09 am Reply with quote
Actually, even the older Disney films tackled some pretty tough subjects. I think we all know what happened to Bambi's mom. I would agree that the range of issues - like mental health - has broadened, but tonally, this material is handled all the same way. Regardless of studio, the material will be couched in funny popular cultural references, usually some bippy tunes, some earnest and reassuring messaging, and a poignant moment or two. Again, don't get me wrong, I ain't dissing the effectiveness of this stuff as entertainment.

I hope your optimism about adding to the palette is right. I'm not so sure myself, but I'd definitely like to see it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime My Manga
ChibiKangaroo



Joined: 01 Feb 2010
Posts: 2940
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 10:22 am Reply with quote
Bambi was an important film, and is still one of my favorites. However, after that, Disney didn't make a similar film for a very long time. Disney became the "princess" studio for a long time, but has started to break from that over the last couple decades. Plus other studios have begun to crop up and gain prominence.

Sure I'm being optimistic, but I think there is something important to the fact that American animation has been taking a LOT of risks lately. Whereas anime has been playing it safe and sticking to their formulas. For me, that's a sign.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Blood-



Joined: 07 Mar 2009
Posts: 20224
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 10:47 am Reply with quote
Laughing

Wow, so wrong. What risks has American animation taken that is comparable to something like Yuri!!! on Ice? Can you imagine an American feature film tackling a gay relationship? I can't. Would American animation dare to do a slice of life series about a guy who is editing a dictionary? To do a series based on a kid who is suffering from depression as he tries to become a shogi master? This is my last word on the subject because it is obvious you are totally locked into your mania that anime does nothing but derivative stuff: there are really interesting, non-typical anime being created all the time. You are simply too disinterested to bother doing your homework to acknowledge them. Eh, enjoy your tunnel vision, I guess.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime My Manga
Chiibi



Joined: 19 Dec 2011
Posts: 4187
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 10:51 am Reply with quote
Don Bluth is my freaking hero

He's solely responsible for my passion of animation; I wanted to work for him as a kid and I still do right now. I should track him down and ask if he's hiring.

He is currently planning to make a Dragon's Lair movie. I contributed to his kickstarter for it and last I heard, it made WELL more than enough to launch the project. Razz
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
ChibiKangaroo



Joined: 01 Feb 2010
Posts: 2940
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 11:09 am Reply with quote
Blood- wrote:
Laughing

Wow, so wrong. What risks has American animation taken that is comparable to something like Yuri!!! on Ice? Can you imagine an American feature film tackling a gay relationship? I can't. Would American animation dare to do a slice of life series about a guy who is editing a dictionary? To do a series based on a kid who is suffering from depression as he tries to become a shogi master? This is my last word on the subject because it is obvious you are totally locked into your mania that anime does nothing but derivative stuff: there are really interesting, non-typical anime being created all the time. You are simply too disinterested to bother doing your homework to acknowledge them. Eh, enjoy your tunnel vision, I guess.


Wow, thanks for calling me a maniac. I thought it was pretty obvious that I have been talking about both American movies AND television animation. As I've said elsewhere, I wasn't a huge fan of Steven Universe at first. In fact I was quite critical of it. However, since then that show has done things that I didn't think were possible on American tv. The show is aimed at middle school or junior high school kids and has explicit lesbian couples who are in fulfilling and loving relationships. This has been confirmed by the creator of the show. Then you have the main character on several occasions essentially becoming a trans female when he fuses with his girlfriend. Yet, despite these things that should have the right wing politicians up in arms, the show is a hit on American tv. It's not the first time in recent years that American television has experimented like that. Yea there was Avatar Korra, but there has been other experimentation pushing things a bit at a time. Shezow was pretty controversial when it first came out (about a boy who becomes a crossdressing super hero). And Adventure Time apparently confirmed that a few of its main characters are bisexual. Even the juvenile show Clarence (which seems aimed at kids around 7-10) had an explicitly gay couple as parents in an episode.

It's hilarious to me that you would overlook these things because these are shows meant for KIDS. Anime might be experimenting with implied relationships for shows aimed at adults, yet American animation is having fully acknowledged gay/lesbian/bisexual relationships in shows aimed at KIDS. So yes, America is moving faster on that point. Now put that in your pipe and smoke it mister maniac Smile

P.P.S. I didn't get to talk about Bojack Horseman, which is AMAZING, but that is a whole new angle on this conversation. But yea, you claim there is nothing on American tv dealing with depression? Bojack Horseman is undoubtedly the quintessential animated show on that topic, whether you are discussing American or Japanese animation.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Chiibi



Joined: 19 Dec 2011
Posts: 4187
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 12:55 pm Reply with quote
ChibiKangaroo wrote:
American animation is having fully acknowledged gay/lesbian/bisexual relationships in shows aimed at KIDS. So yes, America is moving faster on that point.


"Moving faster" only applies if you are a liberal and fully supportive of such things. But if you want to make that argument, it doesn't hold much water. Sailor Moon, a show aimed at four-year-old girls even in Japan, has been doing this since 1992.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
ChibiKangaroo



Joined: 01 Feb 2010
Posts: 2940
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 1:20 pm Reply with quote
Chiibi wrote:
ChibiKangaroo wrote:
American animation is having fully acknowledged gay/lesbian/bisexual relationships in shows aimed at KIDS. So yes, America is moving faster on that point.


"Moving faster" only applies if you are a liberal and fully supportive of such things. But if you want to make that argument, it doesn't hold much water. Sailor Moon, a show aimed at four-year-old girls even in Japan, has been doing this since 1992.


I think that's probably the only example that you can find on that, and even in the case of Sailor Moon, there has been much debate about the explicitness of that representation, particularly in the animated versions.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Chiibi



Joined: 19 Dec 2011
Posts: 4187
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 1:47 pm Reply with quote
What? In the 1992 version?

Have you um.....watched it? Laughing
I don't know how you can argue with that; Kunzite and Zoisite are explictly gay together, Fish Eye is explicitly gay, Uranus and Neptune are explicitly gay.

There is no wiggle room to interpret any of those relationships as anything but gay.

Also, no, Sailor Moon was not the only example. Utena's entire cast was either gay or bisexual. And I'm sure there are more titles than just those two.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
ChibiKangaroo



Joined: 01 Feb 2010
Posts: 2940
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 2:09 pm Reply with quote
Chiibi wrote:
What? In the 1992 version?

Have you um.....watched it? Laughing
I don't know how you can argue with that; Kunzite and Zoisite are explictly gay together, Fish Eye is explicitly gay, Uranus and Neptune are explicitly gay.

There is no wiggle room to interpret any of those relationships as anything but gay.

Also, no, Sailor Moon was not the only example. Utena's entire cast was either gay or bisexual. And I'm sure there are more titles than just those two.


I've watched Sailor Moon and I recall that most if not all of the relationships were implied, but if you have something that says the old anime showed it as explicit, please attach that and I'll retract that position. Utena, I understand the significance of although I am no expert on that property. Even if I were to grant that those are both explicit examples in Anime , the conclusion would be that anime was once (decades ago) slightly more progressive on this issue with two shows, but has since had a massive backslide into the place it's in now (i.e. only implicit relationships that are mostly played for fetish or laughs)? That would be even worse in my opinion.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Anime News Network Forum Index -> Site-related -> Talkback All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Page 4 of 5

 


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group