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HeeroTX wrote:

One could argue that if not for the Black Cats debacle, he might've settled into a comfortable routine just hanging out with friends and doing exactly what you say, sitting around enjoying "life" in Aincrad. But he literally watched several people DIE right in front of him, and from then on he's trying to minimize that.

While I agree with you on his desire to help people (at his core, he's actually a nice guy)....

Watching Sachi die, and Kieta commit suicide over what he viewed as his failures - that changed everything. On multiple occasions after that he even refers, obliquely, to the incident - "I'm never going to let a party member die on my watch again". That ultimately becomes his motivation to "beat the death game", as that's the most straightforward and simple way to ensure nobody dies.

I think people miss that because while it became his motivation, it didn't become his obsession. He remained a nice guy, he remained grounded, he didn't become monomaniacal.

Akane the Catgirl wrote:

Yes, but what is he hoping to get out of it is the question I'm asking. You say his motive is to be the hero. In that case, if that's it, then that makes Kirito's entire character arc of learning to appreciate people moot because he never has to learn the lesson in the first place.

You said a friend told you that's the character arc. You want me to say "Kirito never grows as a person/character in the show"? Fine, he doesn't, he's the same guy at the end as he is at the beginning, just more powerful/skilled at the game in question. Kirito is like Superman, Captain America, etc. That guy that's just supposed to represent a heroic "ideal", he does the right thing BECAUSE it is the right thing. Sometimes it's good to believe someone will do the right thing "just because" rather than because "he gets X out of it". If that doesn't do it for you, then sorry to hear it, but that's what it is IMO and I'm fine with that. "Sword Art Online" is basically "The Lone Ranger", but a video game world instead of the old west. Why does everything need to be some kinda deep, philosophical, existential "experience", why can't some of us just have "fun" entertainment where the good guy wins and gets the girl in the end?

HeeroTX wrote:

Akane the Catgirl wrote:

Yes, but what is he hoping to get out of it is the question I'm asking. You say his motive is to be the hero. In that case, if that's it, then that makes Kirito's entire character arc of learning to appreciate people moot because he never has to learn the lesson in the first place.

You said a friend told you that's the character arc. You want me to say "Kirito never grows as a person/character in the show"? Fine, he doesn't, he's the same guy at the end as he is at the beginning, just more powerful/skilled at the game in question. Kirito is like Superman, Captain America, etc. That guy that's just supposed to represent a heroic "ideal", he does the right thing BECAUSE it is the right thing. Sometimes it's good to believe someone will do the right thing "just because" rather than because "he gets X out of it". If that doesn't do it for you, then sorry to hear it, but that's what it is IMO and I'm fine with that. "Sword Art Online" is basically "The Lone Ranger", but a video game world instead of the old west. Why does everything need to be some kinda deep, philosophical, existential "experience", why can't some of us just have "fun" entertainment where the good guy wins and gets the girl in the end?

I'm not saying everything has to be "deep". But SAO doesn't commit fully to being light entertainment like, say, Black Butler or Code Geass. I would have been perfectly fine if the series wanted to just be something fun and mindless. But if it did, then it failed because it takes itself far too seriously to be just action fluff. There's really not much levity or light-heartedness to balance out the drama and angst among other things.

As for an ideal hero, I don't have a problem with that either. Kenzou Tenma from Monster is one of my favorite protagonists of all fiction, and he's one of the nicest and sweetest characters you'll ever see in anime. The difference between him and Kirito, though, is that Dr. Tenma has fully realized personality and a clear-defined goal and motive (in this case, stop Johan Liebert because guilt).

Actually, ninety percent of my issues with Kirito aren't necessarily with his character writing. (In a vacuum, he's just sort of generically nice). It's the plot and pacing that I felt ruined anything unique or interesting about him. I will never forgive this show, for example, having over half the timeline covered by the end of the third episode out of fourteen. Which was my least favorite episode, by the way.

HeeroTX wrote:

You said a friend told you that's the character arc. You want me to say "Kirito never grows as a person/character in the show"? Fine, he doesn't, he's the same guy at the end as he is at the beginning

That's not actually true though....he learns how to let people into his heart. In episode 02, when everyone is forming parties, we are shown how he has social anxiety and Asuna had to be the one to approach him first.

But by episode 25, he is not only surrounded by people who are close to him, he regularly interacts with them on a daily basis and doesn't hesitate to rely on them.

In the second season, we are shown that he doesn't only hang with all his friends from SAO in the virtual world but the real world as well. For the NEET Kirito of the first few episodes of Aincrad, this would have been unthinkable.

Chiibi wrote:

That's not actually true though....he learns how to let people into his heart. In episode 02, when everyone is forming parties, we are shown how he has social anxiety and Asuna had to be the one to approach him first.

Is...is that what happened? I don't remember it going like that. All I recall is that the blue-haired guy called for everyone to form groups, ten seconds of Kirito looking around, him noticing Asuna, then scooching towards her. Him being socially anxious or awkward could have been demonstrated far better than just him looking around for a lab partner. I do remember suggesting that the first two episodes could have been expanded into four and been better off. Once again, can't forgive "Aincrad" for covering half the timeline by the end of episode three out of fourteen.

Chiibi wrote:

That's not actually true though....he learns how to let people into his heart. In episode 02, when everyone is forming parties, we are shown how he has social anxiety and Asuna had to be the one to approach him first.
...
For the NEET Kirito of the first few episodes of Aincrad, this would have been unthinkable.

I have to disagree. We don't really have any indication that Kirito was a NEET before SAO and he clearly isn't one after. (to be fair, we don't know MUCH about him before) And we see at the start that he doesn't really have problems reaching out to/connecting with "good" people. He STARTS the show helping Klein, and he was close to just joining Klein at the beginning, but he doesn't for several reasons, one purely functional (its easier for him to power level by himself). He also didn't have problems joining the Black Cats, he was just severely traumatized by the experience with them.

Personally, I don't take issue with that. To again use "The Lone Ranger" as example, he doesn't really "grow" throughout the series, he just helps people in need and then moves on. I think Kirito has a cler personality, but I DO think he's written somewhat as a cipher and we are intended to empathize more with the people he helps rather than with Kirito himself, which is why THEIR struggles are more pronounced. Leafa, Sinon, Silica and Liz all clearly have stories told more from THEIR perspective, rather than from Kirito's.

HeeroTX wrote:

Chiibi wrote:

That's not actually true though....he learns how to let people into his heart. In episode 02, when everyone is forming parties, we are shown how he has social anxiety and Asuna had to be the one to approach him first.
...
For the NEET Kirito of the first few episodes of Aincrad, this would have been unthinkable.

I have to disagree. We don't really have any indication that Kirito was a NEET before SAO and he clearly isn't one after. (to be fair, we don't know MUCH about him before) And we see at the start that he doesn't really have problems reaching out to/connecting with "good" people. He STARTS the show helping Klein, and he was close to just joining Klein at the beginning, but he doesn't for several reasons, one purely functional (its easier for him to power level by himself). He also didn't have problems joining the Black Cats, he was just severely traumatized by the experience with them.

Personally, I don't take issue with that. To again use "The Lone Ranger" as example, he doesn't really "grow" throughout the series, he just helps people in need and then moves on. I think Kirito has a cler personality, but I DO think he's written somewhat as a cipher and we are intended to empathize more with the people he helps rather than with Kirito himself, which is why THEIR struggles are more pronounced. Leafa, Sinon, Silica and Liz all clearly have stories told more from THEIR perspective, rather than from Kirito's.

I do agree with you to an extent. Kirito doesn't really have problems with people in general. What about Argo, the girl with cat whisker markings? Or Agil? Or Klein? Do they not count? That always confused me.

As for the Lone Ranger thing, I do have to disagree with that. Episodes Four and Ten feature climaxes that would have been stronger if Kirito wasn't the center of attention. If respectively, Silica and Asuna were the ones who defeated Rosalia and Kuradeel, the narrative would have been stronger. I do believe that Kirito was intended to be an escapist protagonist any of the readers could relate to, but I don't think it was well-executed and that the writers were playing it too safe.

A better example of a "Lone Ranger" character would be Dr. Kuro'o "Black Jack" Hazama from Osamu Tezuka's Black Jack. The series is an anthology about the good doctor's adventures and that of the people who come to see him. More often than not, Black Jack was a supporting or minor role to the Patients of the Week's stories e.g. a teen delinquent girl who finds a baby in a coin locker. Also, Black Jack is an awesome character and you should read all of his comics because if you have to read something created by the great god of manga, might as well be that.

HeeroTX wrote:

I have to disagree. We don't really have any indication that Kirito was a NEET before SAO and he clearly isn't one after.

I recall Suguha pretty much lampshading it. He is the biggest NEET ever; only shutting himself up in his room, playing games all the time.

Quote:

Kirito doesn't really have problems with people in general. What about Argo, the girl with cat whisker markings? Or Agil? Or Klein? Do they not count? That always confused me.

He never gets that close to them though. He talks to them and stuff but he doesn't open himself up to them. He helps out Klein with attack technique and then leaves. He partners with Silica for a couple days, and leaves. He partners with Liz for a day and leaves. Why did he keep leaving everyone behind? Because he is afraid. Asuna was the only one he opened up to and finally stays with but even that took a long time.

Quote:

Episodes Four and Ten feature climaxes that would have been stronger if Kirito wasn't the center of attention. If respectively, Silica and Asuna were the ones who defeated Rosalia and Kuradeel, the narrative would have been stronger.

Silica was far too inexperienced to do that. Both Pina and Kirito had to save her from some monsters at the beginning of her story so it would have been very unrealistic for her to suddenly be able to defeat a skilled PKer after what? Two days, I think?

It would have been better if that episode was only about Silica and Kirito reviving Pina and the Rosalie subplot wasn't in there at all. Just a nice little slice-of-life cutesy ep to break away from the drama would have been fine.

As for episode 10, Kirito didn't want Asuna to have to go through the trauma of murdering someone. In season II, we are shown how much PTSD actually affects him. Even in self-defense, a life is still a life. If I was put into that situation, I'd be pretty messed up. I'd be really grateful if another person stopped me from doing such a thing. Killing Kuradeel still really affected Kirito, which led to him reaching out to Asuna with "I don't want to be alone tonight" which led to her misunderstanding, which led to some very hilarious moments of awkward, which led to them sleeping together anyway and starting a real relationship.

So it does fit together. I'm not sure all of that would have gone the same way if Asuna's role in the battle was changed. I suppose it could have....but there's no guarantee. I've always looked at that chain of events in episode 10 as "cause and effect comfort sex" Anime hyper

Chiibi wrote:

Quote:

Kirito doesn't really have problems with people in general. What about Argo, the girl with cat whisker markings? Or Agil? Or Klein? Do they not count? That always confused me.

He never gets that close to them though. He talks to them and stuff but he doesn't open himself up to them. He helps out Klein with attack technique and then leaves. He partners with Silica for a couple days, and leaves. He partners with Liz for a day and leaves. Why did he keep leaving everyone behind? Because he is afraid. Asuna was the only one he opened up to and finally stays with but even that took a long time.

The Liz thing is inaccurate because we see her a few episodes later hanging out with Agil. And I don't know, it seemed like Kirito was on good terms with Agil long before his and Asuna's relationship arc began.

Chiibi wrote:

Quote:

Episodes Four and Ten feature climaxes that would have been stronger if Kirito wasn't the center of attention. If respectively, Silica and Asuna were the ones who defeated Rosalia and Kuradeel, the narrative would have been stronger.

Silica was far too inexperienced to do that. Both Pina and Kirito had to save her from some monsters at the beginning of her story so it would have been very unrealistic for her to suddenly be able to defeat a skilled PKer after what? Two days, I think?

It would have been better if that episode was only about Silica and Kirito reviving Pina and the Rosalie subplot wasn't in there at all. Just a nice little slice-of-life cutesy ep to break away from the drama would have been fine.

As for episode 10, Kirito didn't want Asuna to have to go through the trauma of murdering someone. In season II, we are shown how much PTSD actually affects him. Even in self-defense, a life is still a life. If I was put into that situation, I'd be pretty messed up. I'd be really grateful if another person stopped me from doing such a thing. Killing Kuradeel still really affected Kirito, which led to him reaching out to Asuna with "I don't want to be alone tonight" which led to her misunderstanding, which led to some very hilarious moments of awkward, which led to them sleeping together anyway and starting a real relationship.

So it does fit together. I'm not sure all of that would have gone the same way if Asuna's role in the battle was changed. I suppose it could have....but there's no guarantee. I've always looked at that chain of events in episode 10 as "cause and effect comfort sex" Anime hyper

In regards to Silica, she's only that inexperienced because the writers made her that way. You do realize that you're using the Thermian argument in this case? (For those who don't know, the Thermian argument, coined by Dan Olson, is when someone uses in-universe reasoning to deflect criticism of a writing decision). I'm not questioning the logic behind Silica's power levels and whatnot; I'm complaining that Kirito was the center of attention when Silica should have been. Side note: I think you're onto something with Rosalia being unneeded. The episode should have focused more on Kirito and his connection with his family through his time with Silica.

Same thing with Asuna. It's still a use of the Thermian argument from your side. The story would have been stronger if Asuna had the spotlight in defeating Kuradeel instead of Kirito. It would have been an improvement if both Kirito and Asuna worked through their trauma instead of what I actually got. Kirito gets too much attention throughout Aincrad anyway.

Akane the Catgirl wrote:

As for the Lone Ranger thing, I do have to disagree with that. Episodes Four and Ten feature climaxes that would have been stronger if Kirito wasn't the center of attention. If respectively, Silica and Asuna were the ones who defeated Rosalia and Kuradeel, the narrative would have been stronger.

You're making up problems here to justify your issue with Kirito. Silica defeating Rosalia would have made ZERO logical sense for any reason whatsoever. To use your own constructs, the Silica story is actually 2 PARALLEL stories: 1) Silica trying to save/revive Pina, 2) Kirito hunting Rosalia. The fact that we don't KNOW about the 2nd plot until the end shows that Kirito is NOT the main character of the story, Silica is. And her whole story begins with her leaving the group, losing her friend, and then regaining it. Kirito helps her because frankly, if Silica was strong enough to beat Titan's Hand she never would have lost Pina in the first place. Kirito is there to catch Rosalia so that he has a "valid" reason to be screwing around in the lower level area, because otherwise he has ZERO reason to do so and Silica is SCREWED. For the larger narrative, you can say it adds (minimal) depth to Kirito by giving him a chance to explain how he obviously already went looking for a way to revive dead people, part of his efforts to deal with his grief.

Regarding Asuna/Kuradeel, I'd actually agree that Asuna SHOULD have been the one to beat him. I can understand the argument that having Kirito do it allows him to keep Asuna from becoming a murderer, but that whole argument gets dicey especially considering the final boss and some of the ret-con Laughing coffin backstory added in GGO. We never get any indication that Asuna KILLED anyone, but IIRC she was involved in HUNTING them, and there's just too many instances of "righteous threats" (like Rosalia) for me to really connect to the "in game self defense=murder" angle. But I also consider that particular side-plot to be weak and one of the more ridiculous ones.

HeeroTX wrote:

Akane the Catgirl wrote:

As for the Lone Ranger thing, I do have to disagree with that. Episodes Four and Ten feature climaxes that would have been stronger if Kirito wasn't the center of attention. If respectively, Silica and Asuna were the ones who defeated Rosalia and Kuradeel, the narrative would have been stronger.

You're making up problems here to justify your issue with Kirito. Silica defeating Rosalia would have made ZERO logical sense for any reason whatsoever. To use your own constructs, the Silica story is actually 2 PARALLEL stories: 1) Silica trying to save/revive Pina, 2) Kirito hunting Rosalia. The fact that we don't KNOW about the 2nd plot until the end shows that Kirito is NOT the main character of the story, Silica is. And her whole story begins with her leaving the group, losing her friend, and then regaining it. Kirito helps her because frankly, if Silica was strong enough to beat Titan's Hand she never would have lost Pina in the first place. Kirito is there to catch Rosalia so that he has a "valid" reason to be screwing around in the lower level area, because otherwise he has ZERO reason to do so and Silica is SCREWED. For the larger narrative, you can say it adds (minimal) depth to Kirito by giving him a chance to explain how he obviously already went looking for a way to revive dead people, part of his efforts to deal with his grief.

Regarding Asuna/Kuradeel, I'd actually agree that Asuna SHOULD have been the one to beat him. I can understand the argument that having Kirito do it allows him to keep Asuna from becoming a murderer, but that whole argument gets dicey especially considering the final boss and some of the ret-con Laughing coffin backstory added in GGO. We never get any indication that Asuna KILLED anyone, but IIRC she was involved in HUNTING them, and there's just too many instances of "righteous threats" (like Rosalia) for me to really connect to the "in game self defense=murder" angle. But I also consider that particular side-plot to be weak and one of the more ridiculous ones.

Allow me to be more specific. We find out at the beginning of Silica's episode that Rosalia constantly picks on her. It's her and her group's abuse that leads Silica to finally quit and go look for a new party. If Silica is the main lead and Rosalia her antagonist, then why doesn't Silica have a confrontation with her at the end? It doesn't even have to be physical, it just needs to exist. Instead, Silica doesn't get to do anything during the fight when she should have had a significant role. Kirito can still play a role in Rosalia's defeat, but he should be second fiddle to Silica. Though in general, this is all moot because Rosalia wasn't a good idea in the first place.

Keep in mind that I've only seen the first season (though I am keeping an open mind for Number Two), so my opinion may change. After all, the sheer badness of "Fairy Dance" did force me to appreciate "Aincrad" for all it's faults. Still, it's far too late to get me to care about Kirito. Maybe if they focused more on plot cohesion and better pacing, I'd give a sh*t. But I don't.

Addendum: I'm going to have to call it a night. I'm really tired, my cat's probably sick, and I'd ideally like to have my recap of Code Geass Episode Two up tomorrow. Take care.

Akane the Catgirl wrote:

Allow me to be more specific. We find out at the beginning of Silica's episode that Rosalia constantly picks on her. It's her and her group's abuse that leads Silica to finally quit and go look for a new party.

As far as we know, Rosalia doesn't "constantly pick on her", from the information we HAVE, Rosalia hasn't even been with their party that long (since she scouts targets for PK). What we "know" is that Rosalia argued with Silica AND Silica is "full of herself" (she admits such later). This causes Silica to make a foolish decision to go on her own that leads to the "death" of Pina (her only "true" friend at the time). Silica's journey to save Pina is ALSO a journey of growth for Silica, she realizes that she ISN'T as important as she previously thought and that's why we can be confident that Pina won't die again, because Silica will be more cautious and keep Pina "safer". If Silica defeated Rosalia, it would actually dispute/nullify exactly the lesson she learned from Pina's death.

Quote:

If Silica is the main lead and Rosalia her antagonist, then why doesn't Silica have a confrontation with her at the end?

Because Rosalia is not Silica's antagonist. Silica's battle is internal (with HERSELF), Rosalia's whole story is the inciting action for Silica's growth, but is otherwise unrelated. ROSALIA'S story is why Kirito gets involved, technically Kirito is the protagonist of Rosalia's story, but it's not the "main" plot thread. (Kirito only "seems" like the protagonist of Silica's story because people like to see someone kick ass, but Silica's story is not (itself) and "ass-kicking" story) Like "Titanic", the "main" story is the love triangle, the "well-known" story of the sinking boat is just the wrapper for the love story James Cameron chose to tell. There's plenty of "heroes" to the "sinking ship" story, but that doesn't make any of them the "protagonist" of the movie's plot.

This is not to say Kawahara is not a clumsy author. Many people have already stated that but if you just wanna gripe, you can find faults (if you wanna dig for them) in ANY popular work of fiction.

Let's just end this here because we're going nowhere. I did an entire recap of the season almost a year ago on my own thread, and I really don't want to exhaust myself more than I already have. It's getting late. Good night.

Excellent points, Heero.

But I don't know why everyone wants Asuna to kill Kuradeel. I've never been able to figure that out. What is the big deal over that?

Chiibi wrote:

But I don't know why everyone wants Asuna to kill Kuradeel. I've never been able to figure that out. What is the big deal over that?

Oh, that's an easy one. There are some who think that her not killing Kuradeel marks her as weak.

(And yeah, I never agreed with that, either.)

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