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The Hidden Depths of Miss Kobayashi's Dragon Maid


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Vaisaga



Joined: 07 Oct 2011
Posts: 13227
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:53 pm Reply with quote
Wtv wrote:
I do see the value of a platonic familiar relationship. But if you're doing it, you should use a straight couple that's saturated already, and one less won't be missed. When you do it with a same-sex couple, you're just being coward and playing safe.


I think in this particular case it has to be same sex characters. Imagine if Kobayashi was a guy. He'd be criticized for being a spineless coward for rejecting Tohru's advances, or called a sexist pig because he keeps a female servant around.

If Tohru was a guy, he'd be seen as a complete creeper and potential rapist for continually making unwanted advances towards her.

DuskyPredator wrote:
Well it has been clear that Kobayashi is quite into maids, you can see the pictures in her home, that she almost seems her most sexual (or compassionate) when she is thinking of them.


She certainly gets worked up about them, but I don't think it's sexual arousal. She's passionate about maids in the same way train otaku like trains, etc. The pictures she hasn't aren't 'sexy' maids but authentic classic ones.
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Animegomaniac



Joined: 16 Feb 2012
Posts: 4082
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:06 pm Reply with quote
njprogfan wrote:
My love for this anime centers around Kanna, my now favorite small child anime character, (and I didn't think any would take the place of Akira from A Lull in the Sea). Any scene with her and Kobayashi are pure gold!


Is she really a kid or is she just playing one? Or perhaps I should be asking if she's an immortal immature.

I'd rather just have this a gag series and not read anything into it, otherwise I'll start pointing out "thing". Things like shapeshifter squick or if the dragons can change their scales to clothing then can't they change their horns and tails to accessories? It's all "magic" after all...

Nope, nope, treat the dragons as people. Oh well, at least it's not as bad as Eccentric Family where I have to deal with "She's kissing a tanuki. How am I supposed to take it?" right in the first episode. It could just be, maybe, that Kobayashi thinks of Tohru as a dragon?
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Jose Cruz



Joined: 20 Nov 2012
Posts: 1773
Location: South America
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:08 pm Reply with quote
This show is a masterpiece of post-modern social construct: a family involving simultaneously lesbianism and a non-sexual relationship? Never seem that before. Well, its "platonic" like in that movie Leon but here in a very different way. And it's has dragons, great direction, animation and art. Its so far has been perfect for me. Easily better than any show over the past year.

The show also surpasses KyoAni previous efforts in its stylistic innovations. Its perhaps their best show ever, even if they already made several great ones. I think this show will be remembered as a classic.
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bleakessence



Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 10
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 11:24 pm Reply with quote
Very thought-provoking piece. Loved it.

As a side-note though, I also love how Kobayashi's Maid Dragon is normalizing same-sex relationships by inserting so many fantastical elements. You have two girls shacking up together (Kobayashi and Tohru) and two dudes shacking up together (Fafnir and the otaku guy). Yet their homosexual relationships aren't slapped all over your face like Yuri on Ice or Simoun. You have two people of the same sex cohabiting together, but the story focuses more on their circumstances and interactions. the main couples just so happen to be gay, and the show is not beating you over the head how gay they are.

I like how this anime does more for normalizing same-sex relationships than other more titles that aggressively force the issue of homosexuality upon the viewer.
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Vaisaga



Joined: 07 Oct 2011
Posts: 13227
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 11:59 pm Reply with quote
Kobayashi and Tohru are one thing, but I think you have your yaoi goggles on too tight if you think there's anything between Takiya and Fafnir.
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relyat08



Joined: 20 Mar 2013
Posts: 4125
Location: Northern Virginia
PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 12:04 am Reply with quote
bleakessence wrote:
Very thought-provoking piece. Loved it.

As a side-note though, I also love how Kobayashi's Maid Dragon is normalizing same-sex relationships by inserting so many fantastical elements. You have two girls shacking up together (Kobayashi and Tohru) and two dudes shacking up together (Fafnir and the otaku guy). Yet their homosexual relationships aren't slapped all over your face like Yuri on Ice or Simoun. You have two people of the same sex cohabiting together, but the story focuses more on their circumstances and interactions. the main couples just so happen to be gay, and the show is not beating you over the head how gay they are.

I like how this anime does more for normalizing same-sex relationships than other more titles that aggressively force the issue of homosexuality upon the viewer.


I don't think Yuri on Ice slapped its relationship all over the place at all. It was incredibly normalized, and viewed very much as this-is-just-a-totally-normal-romantic-relationship, making it probably my favorite instance of homosexuality in anime. Well, maybe second to From The New World, but it's fantastic nonetheless. I really don't see Kobayashi as canonically gay at all though. Like many have said, what you seem to think is "normalizing" it, is kind of just its lack of existence at all. It can be a mother-mother family if you want it to be, but there is zero sexual interest on the part of Kobayashi. I'm a fan of them as a family unit regardless of what form their relationships take. I don't care if there is romantic development later on, but really just not seeing it so far.
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Sakagami Tomoyo



Joined: 06 Dec 2008
Posts: 940
Location: Melbourne, VIC, Australia
PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 1:29 am Reply with quote
meiam wrote:
Personally I think homosexual people falling in love with straight people (or the opposite, straight for homo) is incredibly underutilized topic in anime story. Most yaoi/yuri show seems to happen in alternate reality where everyone is gay or bi and the topic of mismatch sexuality is never discussed despite it being one of the very few story element that can only be explored in show about homosexual people (i.e. most yaoi/yuri show are essentially just straight romance with one of the character being gender flipped and don't actually use there setting). So I like the interpretation that Kobayashi is straight or asexual a lot more.


Actually, I've seen it explored more in regular shows that feature a homosexual character than in outright yuri or what little yaoi I've seen. Usually as a gag, but occasionally with some some measure of sensitivity and thoughtfulness.

Vaisaga wrote:
I think in this particular case it has to be same sex characters. Imagine if Kobayashi was a guy. He'd be criticized for being a spineless coward for rejecting Tohru's advances, or called a sexist pig because he keeps a female servant around.

If Tohru was a guy, he'd be seen as a complete creeper and potential rapist for continually making unwanted advances towards her.


Still, "rape/sexual assault/sexual harassment is okay if it's same sex" is its own kind of unfortunate implications.
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uguu



Joined: 02 Oct 2010
Posts: 220
PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 2:25 am Reply with quote
None of the things the article writer brought up have any actual "depth" and none of the extremely light thematic content was remotely "hidden", which was pretty much what I expected given this is a male otaku targeted manga drawn by a man who draws shotacon, lolicon and cowtits porn all day. The scene about uniforms and conformity has about as much "hidden depth" as the really in-your-face "weird ugly mutants vs boring same-faced cops" symbolism in Dead Leaves.

The fact that it's not a softcore porn anime is not surprising given the general attitude of a lot of moe anime, that of "don't sexualize it TOO much - otherwise, the perverts will get upset". It's like pretending to be surprised that Lucky Star isn't Seikon no Qwaser.

I also love how writers always ignore the obvious sexualization of the oh-so-pure little girl daughter figure and act like the boobs are the only perverted thing about the show. I'm not remotely anti-loli but if you're gonna bring up "things that might make it uncomfortable to watch with your family" then there's far more to it than just boob fanservice. Boobs being sexualized is as normie-friendly and common in media as it gets.

[quote="Sakagami Tomoyo"]
meiam wrote:


Still, "rape/sexual assault/sexual harassment is okay if it's same sex" is its own kind of unfortunate implications.


It's nothing surprising given the author is a perverted porn artist otaku; I doubt he'd even take issue with it if it was 'man making advances on women' and he probably gets off to worse things. It's funny how writers have to portray it as a woke portrayal of queer relationships though.
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relyat08



Joined: 20 Mar 2013
Posts: 4125
Location: Northern Virginia
PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 2:54 am Reply with quote
^That's quite the hate you've got there! I actually thought the author was a lady, but I couldn't find anything doing a quick google search on their alias in Japanese. For what it's worth, the show has a pretty sizable female audience from what I've seen. At least where I spend my time.
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bleakessence



Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 10
PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 3:32 am Reply with quote
relyat08 wrote:
bleakessence wrote:
Very thought-provoking piece. Loved it.

As a side-note though, I also love how Kobayashi's Maid Dragon is normalizing same-sex relationships by inserting so many fantastical elements. You have two girls shacking up together (Kobayashi and Tohru) and two dudes shacking up together (Fafnir and the otaku guy). Yet their homosexual relationships aren't slapped all over your face like Yuri on Ice or Simoun. You have two people of the same sex cohabiting together, but the story focuses more on their circumstances and interactions. the main couples just so happen to be gay, and the show is not beating you over the head how gay they are.

I like how this anime does more for normalizing same-sex relationships than other more titles that aggressively force the issue of homosexuality upon the viewer.


I don't think Yuri on Ice slapped its relationship all over the place at all. It was incredibly normalized, and viewed very much as this-is-just-a-totally-normal-romantic-relationship, making it probably my favorite instance of homosexuality in anime. Well, maybe second to From The New World, but it's fantastic nonetheless. I really don't see Kobayashi as canonically gay at all though. Like many have said, what you seem to think is "normalizing" it, is kind of just its lack of existence at all. It can be a mother-mother family if you want it to be, but there is zero sexual interest on the part of Kobayashi. I'm a fan of them as a family unit regardless of what form their relationships take. I don't care if there is romantic development later on, but really just not seeing it so far.



Since you mentioned Yuri on Ice, I have to compare that show to Keijo. Keijo is a sports shounen show with cool characters, but the T&A takes center-stage. If you don't like T&A, then you'll likely drop the show without knowing about those characters. Yuri on Ice is a sports shounen show with cool characters, but the gay relationships are also center-stage. If you don't like gay content, then you'll likely drop the show and without taking the time to learn more about the characters.

And that's the beauty of Kobayashi MD. The lack of sexual tension or overt gayness is it's greatest contribution to normalizing homosexual couples. The family unit they form is fascinating to watch, even when their sexuality is not the focus of the story. For me, Tohru and Kobayashi being mom-and-mom to Kanna is like that. I like watching them, and their sexuality barely registers in my mind.

This is especially true for the relationship between Fafnir and Takiya.

To be honest, I'm normally turned off by male gay relationships - implied or otherwise. That is why I never watched Free! or Yuri on Ice, despite all the high praise heaped upon them. But watching these two dudes shack up compelled me enough to care about their relationship. I enjoyed watching Fafnir going full otaku mode and then noting how Takiya is an 'okay' guy by his standards. All without my 'gay' flags going up in arms and ringing bells in my head.

This, to me, was impressive enough to make me agree wholeheartedly with Gabriel Peralta's opinions

*off-topic
holy smokes. my ANN account is 10 years old already, and with only 8 posts? damn if that doesn't make me feel old af
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roxybudgy



Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 129
Location: Western Australia
PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 3:37 am Reply with quote
Vaisaga wrote:
Never claimed she was straight. Could be asexual like some people have suggested.


I'm leaning towards thinking Kobayashi is asexual and/or aromantic. Nothing wrong with that, why are people obsessed with shoe-horning people into hetero/homo/bi sexuality? As an asexual person who used to be in a relationship with a heterosexual person, the way Kobayashi behaves towards Tohru makes sense to me.
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#863661



Joined: 09 Nov 2016
Posts: 9
PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 3:52 am Reply with quote
Sorry to burst your bubble but Kobayashi is not gay, read the manga, and understand that Kyoani likes the yuri tease. As far as the immigrant allegories go I can agree but yeah like the sjaydoubleu uguu poster says, these things are not hidden, these themes the show is portraying are clear as water.
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uguu



Joined: 02 Oct 2010
Posts: 220
PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 4:30 am Reply with quote
relyat08 wrote:
^That's quite the hate you've got there! I actually thought the author was a lady, but I couldn't find anything doing a quick google search on their alias in Japanese. For what it's worth, the show has a pretty sizable female audience from what I've seen. At least where I spend my time.


Valkyrie Drive and Seikon no Qwaser have a ton of female fans too. Would love to see ANN write about how progressive those two are.
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relyat08



Joined: 20 Mar 2013
Posts: 4125
Location: Northern Virginia
PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 4:36 am Reply with quote
^So, if both men and women like the show, in very large numbers, why are you so caught up in calling it this super sexist, Male-Otaku targeted, gross, evil thing?

bleakessence wrote:

Since you mentioned Yuri on Ice, I have to compare that show to Keijo. Keijo is a sports shounen show with cool characters, but the T&A takes center-stage. If you don't like T&A, then you'll likely drop the show without knowing about those characters. Yuri on Ice is a sports shounen show with cool characters, but the gay relationships are also center-stage. If you don't like gay content, then you'll likely drop the show and without taking the time to learn more about the characters.

And that's the beauty of Kobayashi MD. The lack of sexual tension or overt gayness is it's greatest contribution to normalizing homosexual couples. The family unit they form is fascinating to watch, even when their sexuality is not the focus of the story. For me, Tohru and Kobayashi being mom-and-mom to Kanna is like that. I like watching them, and their sexuality barely registers in my mind.

This is especially true for the relationship between Fafnir and Takiya.

To be honest, I'm normally turned off by male gay relationships - implied or otherwise. That is why I never watched Free! or Yuri on Ice, despite all the high praise heaped upon them. But watching these two dudes shack up compelled me enough to care about their relationship. I enjoyed watching Fafnir going full otaku mode and then noting how Takiya is an 'okay' guy by his standards. All without my 'gay' flags going up in arms and ringing bells in my head.


It sounds like what you're saying, though, is that you're only okay with gay romance if it is treated like a background element and not the focus of a show. That's not a step forward, and that's not something to praise about Maid Dragon at all! That's a BAD thing! Normalizing a gay relationship is giving it the EXACT SAME RESPECT AND EXACT SAME FOCUS that any other romantic relationship would receive in the same situation. What you're saying is that a "normal" gay relationship is one that takes place in the background and can't take the spotlight, because it'll turn you off if they focus on it too much. That's a very sad thing to hear. I maintain that YOI is a beautiful example of a gay romance being treated respectfully and normalized in the best way possible. While Dragon Maid is not a normalization of gay romance in any fashion. The only character in that show that is probably gay is Tohru. There is very little reason to think anyone else is.
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uguu



Joined: 02 Oct 2010
Posts: 220
PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 5:03 am Reply with quote
relyat08 wrote:
^So, if both men and women like the show, in very large numbers, why are you so caught up in calling it this super sexist, Male-Otaku targeted, gross, evil thing?

uguu wrote:
I'm not remotely anti-loli

Yeah.

I'm not at all a fan of people who say otaku moe shows are immoral or whatever. The thing is trying to counter that by saying "uhhh it's DEEP" is mistakenly trying to counter people like that using their own rules. A cute girls show doesn't need 'hidden depth' to be good.
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