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BodaciousSpacePirate
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 1:57 pm Reply with quote
I never realized Girl Beats Boys was going to be a short-form title. Everything about it screamed "full-length, single-coeur otome adaptation" to me.
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Key
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 2:19 pm Reply with quote
ChibiKangaroo wrote:
1. I thought some of the dialogue choices were a little strange. For example, at the beginning, when they first see the blue haired girl, the creatures in the crowd say she is disfeatured or whatever because she has no "fur," but then there is a toad dude standing right next to them who also has no fur, and as far as I could tell there wasn't any particular class distinction between the furry creatures and the toad/lizard type creatures. It's a minor thing, but it's the type of simple writing error that stands out to me because it indicates that someone sort of half-assed things. That kind of inconsistency can be an indication of things to come as well...

Could be a translation issue, or could just be a generic term that's developed over time for people who don't have animal or goblinoid features. The latter seems plausible enough to me that I don't plan to fret over it.

Quote:
4. I won't re-open the harem discussion here. Once the first review posts for this show, I'll raise it there, but I did take note that although the "weapon girls" appear to be innocently presented at the moment, there are clearly some sexy times envisioned between our self-insert hero and at least blue haired girl and troll girl (the latter of whom repeatedly says she will "eat him" while playing her tongue about or otherwise putting forth cliche indications of arousal, and the former of whom blushes around our hero and is seen naked and blushing in the final shot of the "next episode" teaser).

So what? Two girls does not make a harem, so I hope you don't intend to rigorously pursue that angle unless there are clear indications of more than that being romantically interested in the MC. (Besides, despite all of the innuendo being tossed out, I do think that the "eat him" thing is also intended literally.)

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5. The weapon girls were cute, but almost annoyingly so. Also, thus far, they don't seem to have been presented as being much of individuals.

Can't agree here. Even though they've only acted as a group so far, each has shown a clear enough distinct personality.

Anyway, I'm going to be following it for at least a couple more episodes myself, so I'm sure will have further debates about it in the streaming review thread.
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ChibiKangaroo



Joined: 01 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 2:55 pm Reply with quote
Key wrote:
ChibiKangaroo wrote:
1. I thought some of the dialogue choices were a little strange. For example, at the beginning, when they first see the blue haired girl, the creatures in the crowd say she is disfeatured or whatever because she has no "fur," but then there is a toad dude standing right next to them who also has no fur, and as far as I could tell there wasn't any particular class distinction between the furry creatures and the toad/lizard type creatures. It's a minor thing, but it's the type of simple writing error that stands out to me because it indicates that someone sort of half-assed things. That kind of inconsistency can be an indication of things to come as well...

Could be a translation issue, or could just be a generic term that's developed over time for people who don't have animal or goblinoid features. The latter seems plausible enough to me that I don't plan to fret over it.


I considered this, but I'm sort of doubtful that it was translation. But if anyone has a definitive answer that would be good. The reason I'm doubting it is because the only type of thing that would have made sense here would be a made up word of some type that covers all animal-type people, and if that were used in the original, it would have just been mirrored in the subs.

Your second possibility also seems kind of implausible because the person was referring specifically to her lack of fur on her body, not to the fact that she wasn't an animal person. It clearly would have made more sense if they had created some term that covers all animal people and said that she wasn't "that." Instead, they were talking of her lack of a highly specific quality that only some of the animal people have.

Now, if there was a class distinction between furry people and toad/lizard/goblin type people and that becomes clear later on, then that might make more sense but it would still be a little strange to refer to someone as a disfeatured if they don't have fur, unless toad/lizard/goblins are also covered under disfeatured. Again, these are the types of things that I get annoyed with in anime because I think a lot of people writing anime take that "who cares... close enough... doesn't matter if our story's internal logic really seems to make sense or is completely thought out, as long as it half-way makes sense, its fine." It's why we get so much bad quality in anime, and as bad as a lot of current American animation can be with its visuals, they usually put a lot more thought into the editing process so even this type of issue won't come up.

Quote:

So what? Two girls does not make a harem, so I hope you don't intend to rigorously pursue that angle unless there are clear indications of more than that being romantically interested in the MC. (Besides, despite all of the innuendo being tossed out, I do think that the "eat him" thing is also intended literally.)


Somehow I am doubting that those two girls will be the only two in the entire world that indicate interest in this guy. If so, it would be a pleasant surprise, though still a bit of a low bar really.

I'm going to check out Grimoire of Zero now. I'm thinking these two shows will have a lot to compare based on the reviews.
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Yttrbio



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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 3:52 pm Reply with quote
I read "disfeatured" as "not having animal features." Once you see her hair, you'd expect fur. But she doesn't have any. Surprise! I mean, featureless was far more prominent in everyone's comments than the absence of fur that one guy mentioned.
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ChibiKangaroo



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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 4:06 pm Reply with quote
Yttrbio wrote:
I read "disfeatured" as "not having animal features." Once you see her hair, you'd expect fur. But she doesn't have any. Surprise! I mean, featureless was far more prominent in everyone's comments than the absence of fur that one guy mentioned.


That does make sense as an explanation for "disfeatured," but at the moment that the comment was made I only remember someone saying she has no fur, and thus is disfeatured.
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vonPeterhof



Joined: 10 Nov 2014
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 4:09 pm Reply with quote
ChibiKangaroo wrote:
Key wrote:
Could be a translation issue, or could just be a generic term that's developed over time for people who don't have animal or goblinoid features. The latter seems plausible enough to me that I don't plan to fret over it.


I considered this, but I'm sort of doubtful that it was translation. But if anyone has a definitive answer that would be good.
I could be overthinking this, but it can actually be argued to be a translation issue, though the issue I see isn't with the word "fur" (the original used 毛皮 kegawa, which means "pelt" or "fur"). 毛皮もねぇ奴 got translated as "someone without any fur". The particle も has the basic meaning of "too" or "also", but in negative phrases where it modifies only one word it acquires the meaning of "even" or "as much as". Either way it implies that other options may be present, while the negative version sets up the option that is mentioned as some sort of minimal requirement that hasn't been met. In other words, a more literal translation would be "someone who doesn't even have fur". The implication that fur is some sort of minimal standard of animal status can still feel a bit jarring, but it's at least understandable given the apparent prevalence of furry animals in the local population and the biases of the beastman who made the remark. He would likely see fur as the least unusual marker, so for him it's like "if you're not covered in feathers, slime, scales, a carapace or green skin, then you've gotta at least have fur like most of us".
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ChibiKangaroo



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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 4:37 pm Reply with quote
vonPeterhof wrote:
I could be overthinking this, but it can actually be argued to be a translation issue, though the issue I see isn't with the word "fur" (the original used 毛皮 kegawa, which means "pelt" or "fur"). 毛皮もねぇ奴 got translated as "someone without any fur". The particle も has the basic meaning of "too" or "also", but in negative phrases where it modifies only one word it acquires the meaning of "even" or "as much as". Either way it implies that other options may be present, while the negative version sets up the option that is mentioned as some sort of minimal requirement that hasn't been met. In other words, a more literal translation would be "someone who doesn't even have fur". The implication that fur is some sort of minimal standard of animal status can still feel a bit jarring, but it's at least understandable given the apparent prevalence of furry animals in the local population and the biases of the beastman who made the remark. He would likely see fur as the least unusual marker, so for him it's like "if you're not covered in feathers, slime, scales, a carapace or green skin, then you've gotta at least have fur like most of us".


Thank you for this. It's very helpful. I do recall someone else saying at another point in the show (might have been narration) that "horns" was another thing. So your explanation might be the most plausible one, i.e. that the particular individual who was saying that was somewhat prejudiced in their own judgment that fur was a minimal standard. If that's the case, I would like to see that further explored at some point and not just tossed out there.
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Gina Szanboti



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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 7:16 pm Reply with quote
What did the troll woman have that marked her as not-human? As far as I noticed, it was only her fangs when she smiled, but unless she's baring them all the time on the street, I don't know why people don't react the same to her or people like her.
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AsuraTheDestructor



Joined: 24 Dec 2013
Posts: 466
PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 7:20 pm Reply with quote
Gina Szanboti wrote:
What did the troll woman have that marked her as not-human? As far as I noticed, it was only her fangs when she smiled, but unless she's baring them all the time on the street, I don't know why people don't react the same to her or people like her.


Anyone that looks like a human will be a discrimated, regardless of the fact that humans aside from Willem are exinct.

There is a VERY good reason for this, one that if I spoil, it might ruin the whole show.
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Kadmos1



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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 9:23 pm Reply with quote
"Disfeature" is a word on dictionary.com, so it is a "real" word. When you have an uncommon word like that, I wonder how they go about deciding "let's use this word".
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Nordhmmer



Joined: 11 Feb 2017
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 9:42 pm Reply with quote
Key wrote:
ChibiKangaroo wrote:
1. I thought some of the dialogue choices were a little strange. For example, at the beginning, when they first see the blue haired girl, the creatures in the crowd say she is disfeatured or whatever because she has no "fur," but then there is a toad dude standing right next to them who also has no fur, and as far as I could tell there wasn't any particular class distinction between the furry creatures and the toad/lizard type creatures. It's a minor thing, but it's the type of simple writing error that stands out to me because it indicates that someone sort of half-assed things. That kind of inconsistency can be an indication of things to come as well...

Could be a translation issue, or could just be a generic term that's developed over time for people who don't have animal or goblinoid features. The latter seems plausible enough to me that I don't plan to fret over it.

Quote:
4. I won't re-open the harem discussion here. Once the first review posts for this show, I'll raise it there, but I did take note that although the "weapon girls" appear to be innocently presented at the moment, there are clearly some sexy times envisioned between our self-insert hero and at least blue haired girl and troll girl (the latter of whom repeatedly says she will "eat him" while playing her tongue about or otherwise putting forth cliche indications of arousal, and the former of whom blushes around our hero and is seen naked and blushing in the final shot of the "next episode" teaser).

So what? Two girls does not make a harem, so I hope you don't intend to rigorously pursue that angle unless there are clear indications of more than that being romantically interested in the MC. (Besides, despite all of the innuendo being tossed out, I do think that the "eat him" thing is also intended literally.)

Quote:
5. The weapon girls were cute, but almost annoyingly so. Also, thus far, they don't seem to have been presented as being much of individuals.

Can't agree here. Even though they've only acted as a group so far, each has shown a clear enough distinct personality.

Anyway, I'm going to be following it for at least a couple more episodes myself, so I'm sure will have further debates about it in the streaming review thread.



ChibiKangaroo Consider that humans are thought to have destroyed the world, so anyone with human like features is looked upon with fear&hate-hence "markless" or "disfigured", "markless" is another translation I've sen from the LN.

And ChibiKangaroo you're right many of the names seem to be translated differently in the LN vs the anime-Kutori is given as Chtholly (the blue haired girl) for example.

ChibiKangaroo,whatever your conception of what a harem trope is-Sukasuka is not it,Willhem is simply a supportive father figure,to say more would be a mild spoiler.
Sukasuka is full of twists and reveals and it is easy to be mistaken.

ChibiKangaroo Naigrat(the troll girl) is NOT being sexual in anyway when she says she'll eat people- the characters all know she means what she says-it's a troll thing.


As far as saying "weapon girls" really that is a misconception,let the anime tell the story.
And again Sukasuka has nothing to do with a rom-com,harem or any of that-

ChibiKangaroo a very mild spoiler and may clear up somethings for youspoiler[ Think more Angel Beatswithout the humor and then you'll touch upon what Sukasuka brings][/b]
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ChibiKangaroo



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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 10:08 pm Reply with quote
Speaking of Granblue Fantasy, I don't understand why it is that so many people (including some of the reviewers) always complain about mascot characters. It's a well established staple of the fantasy/RPG/adventure type story. Sometimes they are comic relief, but usually they act as a friend and conscience or otherwise serve in an advisory role to the main character. Sometimes, depending on the nature of the show, their role might expand into more of a guardian role, which I think is the best version of such characters. In general, I have absolutely no problem with these characters. In addition to their relationship to the main character, they tend to be cute in a way that makes them sort of like pets. The idea of a pet who is also your friend is basically every kid's dream come true, so yea I find them kind of fun and appealing in that way. There have occasionally been a mascot character who was so obnoxious or has a character design that is so offensively bad that they serve no purpose, but as long as they are cute I think they have met the minimum standard.

Vyrn appears to be a visual mix between a dragon and a puppy (and thus generally looks cute), and they have properly given him a cute sounding voice actor. That meets the bare minimum standard for a good mascot. If he also serves some of the other roles I mentioned above, I think he gets better and better. Ideally, a mascot character would also be a fully realized character of their own with a backstory and thoughts and emotions that are separate from the main character they follow about. That would make them a superior example of that type (and I think it would make the writers REALLY committed to their story, which would mean the rest of the writing is probably excellent as well), but if not, I won't sweat it.
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Key
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 11:05 pm Reply with quote
ChibiKangaroo wrote:
Speaking of Granblue Fantasy, I don't understand why it is that so many people (including some of the reviewers) always complain about mascot characters. It's a well established staple of the fantasy/RPG/adventure type story. Sometimes they are comic relief, but usually they act as a friend and conscience or otherwise serve in an advisory role to the main character. Sometimes, depending on the nature of the show, their role might expand into more of a guardian role, which I think is the best version of such characters. In general, I have absolutely no problem with these characters. In addition to their relationship to the main character, they tend to be cute in a way that makes them sort of like pets. The idea of a pet who is also your friend is basically every kid's dream come true, so yea I find them kind of fun and appealing in that way. There have occasionally been a mascot character who was so obnoxious or has a character design that is so offensively bad that they serve no purpose, but as long as they are cute I think they have met the minimum standard.

Given what else you get picky about, that you're tolerant here just flabbergasts me. But to each his own, I guess.
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ChibiKangaroo



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 12:17 am Reply with quote
Key wrote:
ChibiKangaroo wrote:
Speaking of Granblue Fantasy, I don't understand why it is that so many people (including some of the reviewers) always complain about mascot characters. It's a well established staple of the fantasy/RPG/adventure type story. Sometimes they are comic relief, but usually they act as a friend and conscience or otherwise serve in an advisory role to the main character. Sometimes, depending on the nature of the show, their role might expand into more of a guardian role, which I think is the best version of such characters. In general, I have absolutely no problem with these characters. In addition to their relationship to the main character, they tend to be cute in a way that makes them sort of like pets. The idea of a pet who is also your friend is basically every kid's dream come true, so yea I find them kind of fun and appealing in that way. There have occasionally been a mascot character who was so obnoxious or has a character design that is so offensively bad that they serve no purpose, but as long as they are cute I think they have met the minimum standard.

Given what else you get picky about, that you're tolerant here just flabbergasts me. But to each his own, I guess.


Well is it really that big of a surprise? I would first ask you this. When someone states that they hate a mascot character, what standard are they judging that by? I have pretty much never seen any standard articulated. It's always just kind of a throw away comment like, "meh, the mascot is annoying and needs to go." Given that this is a major character type that is common throughout these RPG/fantasy type narratives, why is there not some kind of standard that people go by when they offer criticism? At least I have put forth something above. Like I said, there have been some mascot characters that I thought had an ugly design or a similarly 'ugly" personality, and that would qualify as bad. But from what I have seen of Granblue Fantasy, Vyrn is both cute and is a good friend to the main character (to the extent that he cries over his body when he thinks he is dead). His comic relief level is actually very low. I think the most he's been used in that role was in the scene where Katalina admits that she is obsessed with "cute fluffy animals" and suddenly chases after him trying to pet him. Other than that, he has been limited to a simple sidekick/friend.

The thing I complain about more than anything else is poor writing, no matter the genre. Certain types of things are easier to write than others. Fantasy/RPG mascot characters are very easy to write well, in my opinion. Their purpose is simple, well established and straightforward. The proper characteristics are obvious. By contrast, rom/com plots are very difficult to write well. They lend themselves easily to Gary Stu type wish fulfillment main characters who are the object of desire/obsession of every girl in the land. A rom/com plot can be written exceptionally well, but it takes more complexity to make the characters not seem like mere vehicles for the wish fulfillment end.

The same can be said of certain fads in anime. For example, we are still living in the 'Madoka fad," so stories about special young girls who undergo devastating loss in the name of some greater cause is a trope that is getting repeated heavily. "Moe girls as weapons" is a similar fad. Often times, stories that focus on these fads are written in an "end justifies the means" manner, where the primary purpose of the story is to set everything up in a way to maximize the enjoyment of the particular fad. Thus, everything is contrived in a way to service that goal. Again, this easily lends itself to poor writing, as the narrative becomes flimsy and thinly supported by depth/development, and instead focus is placed on set-pieces that emphasize whatever fad is being sort of fetishized.

So yea, that's what I complain about. I think it's pretty consistent across my commentary. So it shouldn't be a surprise that I usually find a cute, friendly mascot character completely inoffensive because it is such a simple concept that is hard to mess up in my opinion.
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Key
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 12:39 am Reply with quote
^
I'll agree that mascot characters are very easy to write, but they aren't at all easy to use in ways that aren't annoying to anyone not enamored towards (and tolerant of) their cute factor. Vyrn is absolutely nothing special in that regard. (At least based on the first two episodes, anyway. I haven't gotten around to seeing episode 3 yet.) To be clear, I'm judging the mascot in this case on the fact that he contributes absolutely nothing except being cute, and I'm not even sure I'd agree with that.

So what I'm basically seeing here is this:

cute mascot characters = inoffensive
cute little girls = loli pedo bait sure to be forced into a harem mix because that's what anime series commonly do.

In other words, you're looking optimistically at one and pessimistically at the other due to personal preference.

Now, mind you, I don't have a problem at all with it being personal preference, as long as we're not trying to pass it off as really being objective. Heck, I'll freely admit that my dislike for mascot characters is entirely long-standing personal bias and I don't think I've every claimed that it wasn't.
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