Forum - View topicThe Spring 2017 Anime Preview Guide
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Gina Szanboti
Posts: 11335 |
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For me it depends on what the mascot brings to the table and how irritating its voice is.
For example Naviloo, the cat-thing sidekick in Monster Hunter Stories, kept trying and failing to be funny and had a voice that was almost as annoying as Flora in Asterisk War. Comic relief characters' one job is to be funny and if they're not, they're an albatross on their series' neck. Fuzzy in The Morose Mononokean didn't speak at all, and was the perfect mascot when he was around. Ao no Exorcist's Kuro is a plus whenever he's on screen. Mokona is also a good mascot, being quite useful and not too annoying. If Nyanko-sensei counts as a mascot/sidekick, then there's not a thing wrong with him either.
I'm not crazy about Vyrm, and he can go anytime as far as I'm concerned, but so far he doesn't make me want to toss him off a floating island. As you can see from some of my examples, it helps a great deal when mascots don't talk. Then the creators don't feel tempted to give it a voice that makes you want to set it on fire.
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mangamuscle
Posts: 2658 Location: Mexico |
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My problem with said mascot is that it has wings ... but levitates!? I remember in Tanken Driland there was later on a similar levitating winged mascot, but that was cheap Toei at work, here we have gorgeous animation budget but they do not properly animate a creature flying? Why not make it instead a magical levitating lizard? It hurts my suspension of disbelief 
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ChibiKangaroo
 Posts: 2941 |
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He hasn't been special thus far, but he has also been basically a cute, friendly sidekick so that's my point, he has only fit the basic role of a mascot at this point nothing more nothing less. If people want to complain about the very concept of a mascot character existing, they are then really complaining about the existence of this genre of anime, rather than complaining about the character who appears in the show, because the mascot is such an ingrained part of this type of anime that he/she appears in a very high proportion of such shows. It would be like me complaining about a magical girl show by saying "you know what though? that magical transformation thing? that annoys me, it must go." People would be like, that isn't really useful criticism. You are watching a magical girl show and complaining about her having a magical transformation? Why? Plus, it's such a simple thing to write. It's kind of hard to mess up writing a magical transformation, since there are only a few aspects to it. I agree that Vyrn hasn't thus far shown anything that would make him a superior mascot character. If they wanted to give us that, they would have probably already explained to us where he comes from and why he and Gran are friends. They have at least made it clear that he cares a lot about Gran, since they put in the effort to animate him tearfully mourning Gran when he gets killed, but that's it so far. Also, they've had him get upset at being called a lizard a few times. It's reminiscent of Nall or Ruby from the Lunar Silver Star/Eternal Blue games being angry at being called a cat, when it was later revealed that spoiler[they were actually very powerful and important dragons who were a key part of protecting the world]. I'm doubtful that this show has similar plans for Vyrn since they haven't done anything yet to leave hints (contrast with Nall in Silver Star, where he is given to the main character's family as a baby along with the girl who spoiler[ends up being the important goddess of their world]). Also, he hasn't yet been set up as a guardian, which would also be a better form of mascot. He might be the "adviser/conscience" type, but we will see. Anyway, you get the point. By all appearances, they have created a basic cute mascot and if that, in and of itself, offends someone then I think they have somewhat of a problem with this genre of anime.
No, you could only think that if you didn't really take to heart what I wrote in my last response. I said the cute little girl fad shows that have popped up recently are hard to write well, because they are heavily focused on re-creating the fad (whether it is Madoka type girls being sacrificial lambs or purely girls as weapons). Often, everything in the show gets manufactured and contrived and twisted into a pretzel just to ensure that the desire for the fad is fully satisfied. The end justifies the means. The narrative becomes very thin and under-developed, except for anything that maximizes the impact of the fad - that is where all of the development goes. I do complain about harem shows (again, based upon the definition that I used previously in the thread, which means sexual or platonic), but not because I cannot accept the concept of such a show. I can, if it is written well. However, I already indicated that this type of show is difficult to write well, and thus the majority of such shows appear to me to be poorly written. Thus, when I see one coming, my expectations are not good. I think you have the impression that I find the loli character type offensive, which is not accurate. I am fine with the existence of both the loli and shota character type. I generally think they are cute. My concern is that the loli type in particular is all too often written poorly. She is usually purely an object, not an individual. She is usually there to satisfy a very specific desire, and everything about her is contrived toward that end. It's a fake character, who is written that way without any care because the author only intends to satisfy the desire in question and nothing more. That is what annoys me, not the fact that lolis exist and otakus like them. Same goes for general cute innocent moe girls. It doesn't matter to me if there is a sexual component or not. Once I see that the show is following a certain fad (i.e., one important male guy with control over a large number of such cute moe girls) I start expecting that the writing is going to probably be immature and questionable at best, unless I get surprised. I feel like I've tried to make this distinction numerous times now though, and you should have seen it several times too in my various posts.
I have a bias but only to the extent that I have an expectation that writing for certain types of anime fads is going to be poor, and sometimes I get surprised. My bias is not that I cannot accept those types of anime fads. I can accept and enjoy them if they are well written. So to whatever extent that I can claim an objective basis for the source of my criticism, I will, even if I am having bias of low expectations prior to fully exploring such shows. |
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Yttrbio
 Posts: 3652 |
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Mascot characters are a very old fad, driven by merchandising concerns. Thus far, there's been no reason given why this particular mascot character shouldn't just be another person. He hasn't been used in any compelling way. He just looks like "writing-by-numbers" to me.
I've also seen tons of these kinds of adventurous fantasy journey anime that don't have a cute mascot character, so I don't know what "genre" you think includes mascot characters intrinsically. The fact that they show up often doesn't mean anything more than the complaints you have about writing problems that show up often in harem shows, and the fact that some mascot characters are actually interesting reminds us that it's perfectly fair to judge this particular one as an instance of a badly-written mascot character. |
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ChibiKangaroo
Posts: 2941 |
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Actually, I think its perfectly simple why this mascot character shouldn't be another person. 1. If he were another person, then he wouldn't be as simple to write. Like I said above, mascot characters are very easy to write well. They only have to look cute, speak cute, and generally be cute. That's it. Because they are such an established aspect of these types of RPG/fantasy stories, and they have been long established in that particular context, they are well known for the limited role and don't require complexity to be effective. If you made Vyrn another person, suddenly he would have to be more complex in order to not be a bad character. The group already has 3 "main" characters. Certainly you could add a 4th into the mix (and I assume we will see others at some point), but it would significantly alter the dynamics of the party if Vyrn was the "4th" rather than the "mascot." Keep in mind, this show is based off of an actual game. Games like this with RPG elements are even more likely to have mascot characters than your average generic fantasy anime. They serve additional purposes in video games - most prominently, they tend to explain useful information to the player during the quest which avoids info dumps and instruction manuals. 2. If he were another person, we would need a separate reason as to why he is joining Gran on this quest. Consider for example the fact hat Aaron seems to be Gran's best friend (to the point of being extremely angry when Gran decides to leave). Why isn't he going with? Because the writer decided that they wanted to start the story with a 3 person party. Thus, there's no room for a 4th. However, a mascot doesn't need a reason to follow the hero around. It is assumed that they will follow the hero anywhere because they are a pet-type companion that the hero would rarely leave behind. (Recall what I said above about the mascot being a mixture of "pet" and "friend." Well this is where that becomes an advantage.) Thus, Vyrn can be a member of the party without actually taking up space, so to speak. This is also how such characters work in video games. They are always a member of the party, but they don't fill a party slot. Sometimes they accompany the group into battle, but only in some instances do they serve a battle function. 3. Mascot characters serve a purpose that is not easily accomplished by a person. Their relationship with the hero is unique and the interactions between them and the hero can reveal things about the hero that might be more difficult to do with another person. Again, they are a "pet" and a "friend," so they likely spend almost all of their time with the hero. Thus, they have intimate knowledge about the hero and know all of his/her flaws and strengths. Thus, when they do serve as an adviser or conscience, they are particularly effective. Like I said, based on what I have seen so far, I would expect that that is the area Vyrn will fall into, which is pretty standard. There are certainly fantasy adventures that don't have mascot characters. However, particularly in these RPG/game type shows, it is highly common to see them to the point that I consider it a normal feature of such shows. In that context, it is ingrained enough that I think saying "it's annoying and needs to go" is a very weak criticism. If people want to complain about the mascot character, they should put forth some explanation about why that particular one is bad. And again, you've sort of ignored the conversation I was having with Theron by saying that there is no difference between judging a mascot character and complaints about harem shows. Even Theron agreed that a mascot character is extremely simple to write. A harem scenario is not simple to write well. It is very complex, and thus it is much more likely to be written poorly. |
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Yttrbio
Posts: 3652 |
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Writing a bad, annoying, pointless mascot character is indeed simple. That's what we have here. But it's simple to write a bad harem plot too. I disagree with both of you that writing a mascot character that actually contributes something to the show is simple.
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ChibiKangaroo
Posts: 2941 |
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You are doing the exact thing that I have complained of. Making short statements without much substance. How exactly do you envision them "contributing to the story?" Are they supposed to steal the scenes and take center stage somehow? Is the story supposed to really be about the mascot? Maybe you are looking for a Digimon type show? You need to articulate what it is that you want to see and say how that is not happening. Simply responding "annoying, pointless" provides absolutely nothing. Maybe they are just there to be a friend and positively impact the main character through their companionship. Have you thought of that? have you ever had a pet? If you did, I bet you'd also say that it is an annoying, worthless, pointless character in your life who doesn't contribute anything. I can imagine you walking around cleaning up after your dog's poo and railing against the world about this insufferable, worthless pup who doesn't pull his own weight. "Get a job, doggo!!!"
Anyway, I think i've already articulated numerous ways that this mascot might have other impacts on the story. We will see how far they take him, or if he just remains as "pet/friend" to Gran. |
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Yttrbio
Posts: 3652 |
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Uh, you started by complaining that you couldn't understand how people would react negatively to the mascot character. Given how well you understand how little people without pets would appreciate having a pet in their life, I find it bizarre that you didn't understand the sentiment everyone else here has made about Vyrn. When people tell you, you insist that they haven't put enough words in their statements to satisfy you, and go into long, winding explanations of why someone might appreciate a mascot character, which is totally irrelevant to your initial point that you couldn't understand a negative reaction. If you want to understand, try listening.
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ChibiKangaroo
Posts: 2941 |
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You still haven't articulated a standard which you think the character ought to live up to. You haven't said the things that he should be doing in order to be a good character. Only in the bizzaro world of internet commentary is it a bad thing for someone to give a careful explanation of their thoughts, and a "good" or "correct" thing for someone to give no real explanation, and simply answer with short statements focused on buzz words like "annoying" or "worthless." My point was, people stating that they hated the mascot characters weren't explaining why. They were just making short conclusory statements that don't explain what it is they would like to see. Apparently, that is how you like to offer commentary as well. Okay, but I think that is a weak form of criticism. P.S. Look up at Gina's response at the top of the page. Gina actually offered examples of other mascots, discussed things that worked and didn't work, and indicated something that Vyrn could do that would make him more enjoyable (i.e. not talk). Notice how I did not respond to Gina, because Gina's response mostly answered my complaint. |
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Yttrbio
Posts: 3652 |
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I assure you, every single person understood everything that was communicated by saying "annoying mascot character." You did, too. It's a fully-formed argument, merely truncated because everyone understands the issue being raised. You responded to it because you understood it, too.
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18175 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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First off, CK, I was harsh to the point of baiting in my previous post, so I feel a need to apologize for that.
You've articulated your argument on how you judge the other stuff to my satisfaction, so apply that argument and pessimistic expectation to mascot characters, too, and you've got where my attitude on them comes from. |
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ChibiKangaroo
Posts: 2941 |
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No, it is not a fully formed argument. It is a simplistic way of dismissing something rather than explain your thought process, which I think there is too much of on the internet. What I understood is exactly what I explained thoroughly in my responses.
Thanks. I apologize since I know I can give the wrong impression sometimes about my feelings on certain content. (I'm not as blunt as Blood-, but I think I can go in that direction sometimes ) You would probably be surprised by the stuff that I actually enjoy, but yea, I understand your feelings on mascots as well now.
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Nordhmmer
Posts: 1028 |
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So paragraph upon paragraph,"wall o text" and it comes down to mascots and a personal take of what a harem consists of.
Well simple,when taking an anime as a infomercial,mascots sell plushies (harems other tibits). Luv 'em or hate 'em, both help push the merchandise. Too cynical? or too low brow lol.
Happy 'Patriot's Day' btw
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Yttrbio
Posts: 3652 |
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But hey, maybe you haven't heard this argument a thousand times on the internet and don't appreciate people being concise. I prefer people who avoid spending 1000 words to say something they can successfully communicate in 3. Thankfully, the next time someone says "annoying mascot character," you'll know exactly what was meant, and we won't have to deal with this again. Because I don't think anyone here has an obligation to avoid doing the things that you "think there is too much of on the internet." |
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ChibiKangaroo
Posts: 2941 |
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Nope, the next time "someone" says it I won't. If Theron says it I might recall that he indicated he has similar low expectations about such characters that I have about some other things. In that case, I would probably make that interpretation. If Gina says it, I might recall the specifics of their post and think "oh it means Gina likes mascots who are silent." But since you and whoever else didn't give any such specifics, I won't know. Sorry. You'll have to do like they did and use your noodle a bit. |
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