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EP. REVIEW: Attack on Titan

danpmss wrote:

No, you are misinterpreting the post I linked and my own words regarding it. As I already told you, there may be references for both elements, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are DIRECT paralels to our reality, and that's precisely the point of the linked post.

Again, to quote the post you linked to "Now, it is undeniable that the parallels are there, and most likely intentional."

But like I said, that post was terrible and argued against strawmen anyways, but even it at least acknowledged parallels were there.

So are Eldians Nazis or Jews? None of those two, not everything is black and white, which is the point Isayama tries to make.

danpmss wrote:

And please explain how the heck that would make it anyhow offensive if you may.

If I have to explain to you why a work of fiction saying "here's a group of people who clearly intended to be an analogue for Jews, also actually they're the original Nazis too!" is offensive then I'm not sure where to even begin.

I personally think the post is completely wrong about any Nazi parallels though, and agree more with what johan.eriksson.9003 said regarding Imperial Japan. Which uh, isn't all that great, but is better than the alternative.

Side note, a lot of people seem shocked by the very idea that people would draw any comparisons between Jews and Eldians. Well...

The Eldians are an oppressed people living in a society comparable in many ways to 20th century Europe, where they are forced to live in ghettos, wear distinctive armbands identifying themselves, and are mocked for apparently believing they're "God's chosen people." The Eldian royal family has the last name of Fritz, for crying out loud.

Mad_Scientist wrote:

Side note, a lot of people seem shocked by the very idea that people would draw any comparisons between Jews and Eldians. Well... The Eldians are an oppressed people living in a society comparable in many ways to 20th century Europe, where they are forced to live in ghettos, wear distinctive armbands identifying themselves, and are mocked for apparently believing they're "God's chosen people." The Eldian royal family has the last name of Fritz, for crying out loud.

Not disagreeing with your overall point, and admittedly this is a bit of a tangent, but is Fritz even common as an Ashkenazic name? Here in Russia it’s firmly associated with (non-Jewish) Germans, to the point that during World War II “Fritz” was a derogatory word for the German soldiers. Judging by British wartime propaganda, it was used similarly in the UK as well (I guess the US equivalent would be “Kraut”). But then, Hoffman isn’t really considered a “Jewish” name around here either, apparently unlike the US.

Mad_Scientist wrote:

Whoa, whoa, hold on a second, back up. Okay. Jews are not some monolithic hivemind where every one agrees with each other, and you are not the Jew whisperer speaking to the forums to proclaim what "the Jews" do or do not feel. Let's avoid any sweeping generalizations about what "the Jews" feel in the future. That goes for anybody in this thread, regardless of side.

Obviously. Certainly not any more than those feeling concerned on their behalf. But what I brought up in that example is an undeniable fact. Every concerned criticism one could level at Attack on Titan over this, is so much more applicable to the film 'Life is Beautiful' - that it can be accused of only using everything about the actual historic holocaust in the real world to make people laugh and make a big joke out of it. But obviously the greater context and intent matters, and Jewish audiences are not stupid. So while it goes without saying that Jewish people are not some hivemind where everyone thinks or feels the same, certainly only one of these two sides in this debate entertains the fact that Jewish audiences are perfectly and reasonably accommodating of using an event like the holocaust in a liberal fashion to make a point. If 'Life is Beautiful' can do that, and Life is Beautiful was threading on far thinner ice than anything Isayama is 'guilty' of, then there is really no need for any over-concern about how Jews will feel about a work of fiction that unlike Life is Beautiful is not actually set in real world history.

Mad_Scientist wrote:

Side note, a lot of people seem shocked by the very idea that people would draw any comparisons between Jews and Eldians. Well... The Eldians are an oppressed people living in a society comparable in many ways to 20th century Europe, where they are forced to live in ghettos, wear distinctive armbands identifying themselves, and are mocked for apparently believing they're "God's chosen people." The Eldian royal family has the last name of Fritz, for crying out loud.

Not disagreeing with your overall point, and admittedly this is a bit of a tangent, but is Fritz even common as an Ashkenazic name? Here in Russia it’s firmly associated with (non-Jewish) Germans, to the point that during World War II “Fritz” was a derogatory word for the German soldiers. Judging by British wartime propaganda, it was used similarly in the UK as well (I guess the US equivalent would be “Kraut”). But then, Hoffman isn’t really considered a “Jewish” name around here either, apparently unlike the US.

Mad_Scientist wrote:

danpmss wrote: No, you are misinterpreting the post I linked and my own words regarding it. As I already told you, there may be references for both elements, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are DIRECT paralels to our reality, and that's precisely the point of the linked post. Again, to quote the post you linked to "Now, it is undeniable that the parallels are there, and most likely intentional." But like I said, that post was terrible and argued against strawmen anyways, but even it at least acknowledged parallels were there.

I mean, that post isn't arguing against strawmen, since this very same accusations did take place back when the manga was released, are still in part taking place in some discussions, and even took place in this very discussion, and your review does the same comparison "Eldians = Persecuted Jews" in a way.

You know what my country did during WW II? We rounded up a certain segment of our population and put them into camps, which they were not allowed to leave. These people had committed no crimes, but there they were. Only they weren't Jews, they were Americans of Japanese ancestry.
*****
In many countries, those of certain race or ethnicity were prohibited from going into certain areas or establishments. Throughout history, "the Other" has been used as a way to manipulate the populous.

Well I'll try to keep things short since I think everyone's discoursed out.

Do I think Attack on Titan is purposefully anti-semetic? No. You don't write a story demonizing a minority while having every single viewpoint character be said minority. Do I understand people who'll take offense to it, yep.

The further the series goes on the more out of the way Isayama will go to state that oppression is bad, that persecution of minorities is evil. But the unfortunate implications of the Titan is still there, and there's more unfortunate implications to come. The story is a mess, and that mess can be interpreted badly by the worst people.

Back when I was reading the chapters I had a different reaction, knowing Isayama's controversy. I read Marley as Koreans angry at Japan for denying the existence of War Crimes. Both Eldia supressing it's own history paralleling Japan's controversy with it's own history education/denialism, and Isayama's own conflicts with Korean fans. Admittedly this reading annoyed the hell out of me. As comparing people wanting you to stop glorifying Imperial Japan to jewish persecution is a tad odious.

What kind of saves it though is that the story is very clear that Grisha isn't a great person, and his POV isn't one you should trust

But there are things I like about the backstory. I mean there has been discourse around Attack on Titan before this. A country trying to gain more territory, killing enemies that are literally inhuman monsters. Eren our protagonist is on a genocidal vendetta of revenge, vowing to exterminate the Titans from the world. People have been comparing this universe to the worldview of fascism and imperialism before this.

The revelations basically turn this narrative on it's head.

It turns out that the entire world agrees with Eren Jaeger. And that worldview Eren holds may be the death of Eren and everyone he cares about.

If I were to end this season it'd be on a scene of the Marley military, doing their own version of the Survey corps salute. A Marley recruit does a passionate speech vowing revenge, a promise to exterminate every single Titan inside the walls.

A bitter ironic echo of Eren's vow in the beginning of the series.

A couple points.

-I'm not the reviewer.

-The post you link to argues against the argument, among other things, that "Isayama uses Holocaust parallels, and is therefore a Nazi apologist", which brings up my comment about strawmen. That is an absurd argument, but it's also not an argument that either myself or James is making.

I'd respond to more of your wall of text, but I'm honestly not sure there's a point, as it seems clear we're not gonna really come to any understanding here.

Sherris wrote:

Has virtue signalling gone too far? It's a fictional story, with fictional characters and settings. Even if some resemblance to real-life events could be drawn in some cases - WHY should it be considered offensive? On a purely intellectual level. Are certain types of imaginary too politically incorrect? Why? Who decides this? Why is that person's judgement considered more acceptable than another's? Discuss.

On a "purely intellectual level" it's because fiction still has meaning, and much of the discussion around fiction (especially visual media) is about using different tools of communication to both impart and decipher that meaning. If a creator is using a particular piece of imagery, be it as a reference or allusion or direct comparison, then the various ideas attached to that imagery are going to be brought up in the minds of the audience.

Titan isn't stepping into this by accident, either. It's very deliberately referencing one of the most memorable symbols from the Holocaust. You can have whatever reaction to that you want, and if it's to just ignore it that's your call. But saying it's "virtue signalling" to acknowledge and dissect that decision isn't just bad faith arguing, it's willfully lying about what the series is doing.

My absolute biggest concern would be if Attack on Titan sends the message that rememberance of one’s ancestors/forefathers/nation’s misdeeds is not necessary or worse, actively oppressive against innocent descendants.

For the love of God, this is a story about WAR.

Everybody is making parallels as they see fit because almost every nation in this planet has a history of war. War is illogical by definition; it only makes sense when you look at it from a completely utilitarian perspective: "I'm hungry. The person next to me has food. I will go kill the person next to me and grab their food and this is how I will survive." This is how it is basically dumbed down. The problem comes when you need to persuade other people do the killing for you. That's when you use: "The person next to us is a bad person and deserves to be killed. Go kill him." And you can use absolutely anything to portray them as a bad person, usually them being different. Because they believe in a different God, because they have different laws or customs, because they simply have different anatomic characteristics. Different defies tradition, it defies order, change seems difficult and threatening.

History is also written by the winners. If the Nazis had won back in WWII, society would probably look very different than what it is right now. Yet life would still go on, even so, one way or another. Genocides have been committed multiple times during the course of history, with the worse one being... oh right, AMERICA GOD BLESS. (Apparently God didn't bless the natives enough, how sad, offer some prayers) Atrocious war crimes have been committed, and are still being committed right now as we are talking about fictional stuff and worry how much they might offend whomever. Sometimes I think we live inside a pretty pink cloud, protected from all the horrors other people have to face. People are dying in Syria, Iraq, and other places so that you and I can sit behind a computer and hypocritically ponder about how much an armband should offend a previously oppressed group of people. Does it make you feel uncomfortable? It should be.

The reason we do talk about fictional stuff is because there are things to be learnt through them without us having to experience them directly. Attack on Titan tells you that it is important to remember your history, (The name of the Queen is Historia! Come on!) albeit difficult, because history can be conveniently altered in order to fit political agendas. BUT, remembering your history is really an entirely different animal than blaming currently living people for crimes that have happened in the past. Some history has unfortunately been lost forever. Do you imagine where humanity would have been right now if the Library of Alexandria hadn't been burnt to the ground?

The message is that every person born into this world deserves to be happy in it, no matter the circumstances surrounding their birth. Nitpicking armbands doesn't contribute - it's like focusing on a tree and missing the forest behind it. Instead of keeping a calm head and seeing the armbands for what they are - imagery famous and effective enough to make the audience do an immediate connection to political oppression without having to explain much, under the "show don't tell" principle - we keep talking against one another like we have to prove the other wrong as a matter of honor. Yes, controversy is trendy and catchy and all, but dragging this too far cheapens the essence of the series.

Instead of keeping a calm head and seeing the armbands for what they are - imagery famous and effective enough to make the audience do an immediate connection to political oppression without having to explain much, under the "show don't tell" principle - we keep talking against one another like we have to prove the other wrong as a matter of honor. Yes, controversy is trendy and catchy and all, but dragging this too far cheapens the essence of the series.

I find it sad that after such a reveal in the story some people would focus on one single aspect that might be controversial for some, rather than seeing the bigger picture. To be honest I came here to ask if anybody else thought the titans in the walls might be a reference to the Golden Army from Hellboy, but instead I got caught in a political debate. Awareness of history is one thing, but there is a fine line between awareness and being oversensitive about political symbolism put into a vague context. Really, I wonder why no one here has accused the author of glorifying white supremacy yet because there is no black character in AoT.