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EP. REVIEW: Revolutionary Girl Utena


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DanQ



Joined: 07 Feb 2004
Posts: 114
PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 5:56 am Reply with quote
Cryssoberyl wrote:
1. As pointed out, this duel was not a clean win. Although the victor on a seeming technicality, Utena did not defeat Juri in the battle of wills that constitutes the duels of Ohtori, which are about the steel in your spirit, not your blade. This is not the only time it will happen, but it is one of the few times. Watch for it.

As Jacob implied (if I understand it right), Juri probably didn't want to win. Maybe because she didn't want to destroy miracles at all… or maybe because she was afraid to have Anthy as a Rose Bride.

Cryssoberyl wrote:
2. I believe that of all the duelists, Juri had by far the best insight into who and what Anthy truly was, even at this early stage. Understandably: they are in fact very similar, in ways not yet revealed, and their brief interaction in this episode is another of those moments to be looked back upon much later in a very different light.

Well, if you countspoiler[ Tóga] as duelist, he probably know much better true face of Anthy than anybody else. But, than again, even spoiler[Akio probably didn't know true face of his sister. And maybe, just maybe, Anthy didn't know either ~_^.]


whiskeyii wrote:

But damn it all if Juri's arc doesn't just curbstomp my heart into a million fractured pieces. TT^TT Out of all the side(?) characters, I find her story to be the most emotional, in both a good and bad sense. It does make me wonder if she was something of a staff favorite, given how all of her episodes land with a much bigger oomph than the others, especially early on.

Well, main screenwriter Yoji Enokido said his favourite character is Shiori, so probably there was some favour for Juri, but usually, character's episode had dedicated team who works on them - script, storyboard and episode director... (like Nanami's episodes were written by Noboru Higa, aka Ryota Yamaguchi and so on) and authors worked with full engagement on "their" character's episodes so that "much bigger oomph" is probably just individual preference of viewer ~_^.

{Edit}: Please refrain from making several posts in a row when 1 post would suffice. You can just put all your points in one post. I merged your posts together. ~ Psycho 101
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Cryssoberyl



Joined: 17 Jan 2009
Posts: 237
PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 8:10 am Reply with quote
Quote:
As Jacob implied (if I understand it right), Juri probably didn't want to win. Maybe because she didn't want to destroy miracles at all… or maybe because she was afraid to have Anthy as a Rose Bride.


I think it's less that she didn't want to win, and more that she just involuntarily couldn't. She definitely wants to assert herself: wants to assert her own worldview as the correct one, and wants to assert her own will over her feelings.

However, the world just isn't allowing her to do that - in fact, that's the real meaning of her "defeat" here as I see it. It's another instance of the world rejecting her dismissal of miracles, and that probably had more weight for her than we're allowed to see.

As for her feelings, her inability to let those go in the face of both her own hopelessness toward them, and also the behavior of their object, is a long-running theme of her development. (Oh no, I made another veiled allusion to later events!)

What she feels toward Anthy definitely isn't fear, although I would certainly agree to the idea that she has no wish to be involved with her, especially as close as she would have to be as the "engaged".

Quote:

Well, if you count spoiler[Tóga as duelist, he probably know much better true face of Anthy than anybody else. But, than again, even Akio probably didn't know true face of his sister. And maybe, just maybe, Anthy didn't know either ~_^.]


Gotta be extra careful with those spoiler tags Dan, or you'll be next on the crucifix. The thing is, spoiler[although obviously at some point he becomes privy to Anthy's role in Akio's game, in my opinion Touga never understood Anthy's nature at all, nor did he try to. They have almost literally zero interaction through the entire show except when he briefly takes her from Utena as his own Rose Bride, and even then he treats her dismissively as nothing but a possession, a thing. As I see it, he had the least insight into her of all the duelists.]
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DanQ



Joined: 07 Feb 2004
Posts: 114
PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 9:47 am Reply with quote
Cryssoberyl wrote:
However, the world just isn't allowing her to do that - in fact, that's the real meaning of her "defeat" here as I see it. It's another instance of the world rejecting her dismissal of miracles, and that probably had more weight for her than we're allowed to see.

So, basically, it was duel Juri VS Miracles… and Miracles won?

Cryssoberyl wrote:
What she feels toward Anthy definitely isn't fear, although I would certainly agree to the idea that she has no wish to be involved with her, especially as close as she would have to be as the "engaged".

I didn't mean that she would afraid Anthy personaly spoiler[(althought: she should be afraid. very afraid)], but being closeted lesbian, she propably doesn't want to be associated with something like having "bride".

Cryssoberyl wrote:
Gotta be extra careful with those spoiler tags Dan, or you'll be next on the crucifix.

Don't wanna be crucified! Halp! Shocked

Cryssoberyl wrote:
The thing is, spoiler[although obviously at some point he becomes privy to Anthy's role in Akio's game, in my opinion Touga never understood Anthy's nature at all, nor did he try to. They have almost literally zero interaction through the entire show except when he briefly takes her from Utena as his own Rose Bride, and even then he treats her dismissively as nothing but a possession, a thing. As I see it, he had the least insight into her of all the duelists.]

spoiler[Ah, you got point. Touga probably know only about Anthy's role in the Duelists' game, but didn't know anything about Anthy's personality. But it would be strange for him not to try dig up something against Anthy, isn't it? At least he got full exploit of weaknesses of Saionji and Nanami. Mayby he just can't dig up anything, because Akio (well, he was just pawn in Akio's hand ~_^).]
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Cryssoberyl



Joined: 17 Jan 2009
Posts: 237
PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 11:42 am Reply with quote
Quote:
So, basically, it was duel Juri VS Miracles… and Miracles won?


Did they though? After all, wasn't it just dumb luck, a fluke of physics, that Utena's sword came down right on her rose? Or...was it? That's the thing, she can't be sure. WE can't be sure either.

Part of the weight that I ascribe to this event is that Juri now senses in Utena a possibility of....maybe. Maybe just maybe there was something more after all.

Quote:
spoiler[But it would be strange for him not to try dig up something against Anthy, isn't it? At least he got full exploit of weaknesses of Saionji and Nanami.]


spoiler[There was no need to though. Anthy was, right up until the end of the show, acting perfectly within the role assigned to her. Touga saw only that and was satisfied that she was playing her part. It was arrogant, callous, and unperceptive of him to think so, but that's Touga after all. He doesn't understand women, and doesn't try. He doesn't need to, as long as they're doing what he wants. Even with Utena, with whom he came closest to actually having a real human connection...in the end that too came down to nothing more than "become my woman".]
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Shay Guy



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
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PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 1:04 pm Reply with quote
Didn't have access to my Chromebook last weekend, so I'm responding now.

Remember when I mentioned this, when "overshooting" came up?

Shay Guy wrote:
Cryssoberyl wrote:
(People's minds overshooting is a common thing when Utena is discussed and interpreted!)


One bit in episode 7 had me thinking "ok but is that just what Ikuhara WANTS us to think she feels based on his reputation or whatever". Will specify when we hit that point.


The bit in question was that shot of the locket at the end, where Ikuhara makes it crystal clear what Juri's deal is. See, I went in knowing that the one thing everyone knows about Ikuhara's work is "lesbians" (it is, after all, the free space in Ikuhara Bingo). And that a knowledgeable viewer in 1997 might already have such a sense of his work, between making waves with Haruka/Michiru and clearly setting up Utena and Anthy as a central couple here. (In retrospect, without Juri, the other cases may not have been enough to build up that reputation.)

As I recall, I also had an understanding that there was more to characters than would be apparent early on. And this still counted as "early on". So when Ikuhara decided to make it obvious what he was doing? Part of me started wondering if it wasn't too obvious.

Yeah, that's right. Go ahead and laugh.

Bottom line, any new viewers who are thinking about doing the iocane powder thing... don't bother. You don't get any points for not being fooled about things, or not making mistaken assumptions. Let yourself think what the show wants you to think, then look back if and when it surprises you.



Other commentary:

If a miracle is "something extraordinary that no human can achieve, given to you by some higher power", that'd arguably make one's own birth a "miracle". Juri's own choices surely account for a great deal of her success, but a good deal of one's own personality and circumstances are inborn. Talent is a real thing; it matters. So does upbringing. Heck, for that matter, she didn't choose to be gay through Pure Will and Reason.

(I'm not sure I was going anywhere worthwhile with that. Except maybe "there's a middle ground between 'you have total control of your own fate' and utter hopelessness"... which is kinda reiterating the review's points, so, eh.)

I've seen suggestions that Anthy's rabbit thing may have been a joke about Juri's voice actor. Also that Utena knowing more about Juri than she did the male celebrities of the student council may be a hint that her interests don't lie where she claimed they did earlier. ("All I want is a totally normal boy!")

And a minor note... does anybody have any idea why the translation subtitles her name as "Jury"? I never figured that out.

Cryssoberyl wrote:
(Oh no, I made another veiled allusion to later events!)

...

Gotta be extra careful with those spoiler tags Dan, or you'll be next on the crucifix.


Is the persecution complex strictly necessary?
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Zin5ki



Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Posts: 6680
Location: London, UK
PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2017 2:48 pm Reply with quote
The drama of episode nine will require take some beating to eclipse! One matter that this tower-toppling tale brings to the fore is that of who can prove to be viler; the fulminatingly toxic Saionji or the more cunning but equally unprincipled Touga. I can only hope that the moral tone of the story continues to vilify the latter with the same focus as it does the former, for while Touga is calculatingly complex in his motives—or even his lack thereof—his greater guile does nothing to excuse his willingness to bring everyone around him before harm's way. Anything that might ennoble him, up to and including the now-debunked hypothesis that he is Utena's prince, would be more than is deserved.
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ckajMonet



Joined: 28 May 2017
Posts: 1
PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2017 11:11 am Reply with quote
I just want to say how much I've been enjoying these write-ups, they're really fantastic. Even if I wasn't enjoying the character writing and themes at play in the story as much as I do, just on an aesthetic level this show is really intoxicating. This is my first time watching despite being a big fan of ikuharas other works and I'm glad I waited as the essays are the only thing stopping me from gorging. Also I suck at deciphering subtext so theirs that too.
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Cryssoberyl



Joined: 17 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 1:46 am Reply with quote
Another great write-up, Jacob. Very cogent analysis of Saionji and his issues. It doesn't excuse him of course, but he is certainly a more complex and interesting character than a lot of people give him credit for.

I agree that Curried High Trip is the weakest episode of the show, by far. The best that can be said about it is that, if it had to happen, its location within the chronology of the show is merciful: neither early enough to give people a wrong impression of the show (thanks to the excellent Miki and Juri episodes having established its quality), nor late enough to be a speedbump for the runaway freight train that is the series' ever-gathering momentum.
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BodaciousSpacePirate
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 2:43 pm Reply with quote
Even if it had ended here, people would probably still be talking about how much they enjoyed this series. In many ways, I feel the same way about these 12 episodes as I do towards Flip Flappers' 13-episode run: a wonderfully-crafted - yet noticeably incomplete - magical realism story, that leaves room for a great deal of follow-up.

Arguably, though, the majority of the show's best episodes are still yet to come.
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NeverConvex
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Joined: 08 Jun 2013
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 4:58 pm Reply with quote
I didn't realize this was going on. I'm going to use this as an excuse to try Utena again; I had previously given up on it out of disinterest.

I'm entertained that the first 3.3 pages of this thread or so (all I've read so far) do not actually mention any specific evidence from the series for any arguments made (otherwise I'd've stopped reading to avoid spoilers). Whether that's a good or bad sign I'm not yet sure.
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whiskeyii



Joined: 29 May 2013
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 6:19 pm Reply with quote
BodaciousSpacePirate wrote:
Even if it had ended here, people would probably still be talking about how much they enjoyed this series. In many ways, I feel the same way about these 12 episodes as I do towards Flip Flappers' 13-episode run: a wonderfully-crafted - yet noticeably incomplete - magical realism story, that leaves room for a great deal of follow-up.

Arguably, though, the majority of the show's best episodes are still yet to come.


I agree. So much of this episode just feels like a finale, especially in a storybook sense. Ending here would basically be our "and they lived happily ever after" send off for Utena herself, but of course, Ikuhara loves to remind us of the importance of other people in their own stories, so let's share the spotlight, shall we?

That said, darnitall Jacob, you're too good at this! I spent all of last week re-examining my feelings about Nanami because of your review, only to get smacked in the face today with more stuff to mull over. I haven't wracked my brain this hard since high school. Laughing
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Zin5ki



Joined: 06 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 12:15 pm Reply with quote
I must say, Ikuhara was very considerate to prioritise the expression of his intended message over the use of certain previous indulgences: the Absolute Destiny Apocalypse scenes are substantially shortened and adjusted from those in previous episodes for great dramatic effect—especially insofar as they depict Anthy—and there is something so refreshigly ordinary to Utena's conciliatory scene with Wakaba that it outshines many of the more intricate exchanges we've seen so far. While I may not exactly relish this series yet, I commend its ability to restrain itself for the sake of clarity in the parts that really matter.

Something I think I ought to mention here is the difference between Utena's loss of her duel and Miki's loss of his several episodes ago. In both cases, Anthy gently discloses something antithetical to what her fancier wished of her, but while the ensuing hurt is similar in kind in both cases, Miki naively continues his hopeless pursuit whereas Utena feels forced to withdraw completely from hers. In tellingly different ways, each is a victim of how they assume they should behave when events do not go in their favour.

whiskeyii wrote:
So much of this episode just feels like a finale, especially in a storybook sense. Ending here would basically be our "and they lived happily ever after" send off for Utena herself...

As far as triumphs go, I was more spirited by the dance in episode three, though I'll agree this happy ending is very fitting. The almost unmitigated evil of Touga—and 'evil' is the precise word to use for him right now—can only be appropriately countered by a sweet tale of redemption at this point. (I still need to pepper my sentences with such disclaimers as "at this point", sadly. Now that we've reached a comfortable stopping point, whatever happens hereafter is an utter mystery to me.)
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Shay Guy



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 11:23 pm Reply with quote
I neglected to say last week: Now we have a reason for why the animal kingdom hates Nanami!

spoiler[The other reason, of course, being that witches can commune with animals.]
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DanQ



Joined: 07 Feb 2004
Posts: 114
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:36 am Reply with quote
BodaciousSpacePirate wrote:
Even if it had ended here, people would probably still be talking about how much they enjoyed this series. In many ways, I feel the same way about these 12 episodes as I do towards Flip Flappers' 13-episode run: a wonderfully-crafted - yet noticeably incomplete - magical realism story, that leaves room for a great deal of follow-up.

Arguably, though, the majority of the show's best episodes are still yet to come.


I'm glad to not to be only one who got some "utena-vibes" from Flip Flappers Anime smile.

Cryssoberyl wrote:
I agree that Curried High Trip is the weakest episode of the show, by far. The best that can be said about it is that, if it had to happen, its location within the chronology of the show is merciful: neither early enough to give people a wrong impression of the show (thanks to the excellent Miki and Juri episodes having established its quality), nor late enough to be a speedbump for the runaway freight train that is the series' ever-gathering momentum.


I'm probably minority here, but I consider 8. episode one of the best. And I agree, that timing of this episode is probably perfect one. It's silly, like... totally silly. but it portraits perfectly the sillier side of many characters, which makes them more 3 dimensional. And its really good to have episodes like this because better counterpoint with serious, heavy ones. (And those episodes make me fan of Nanami, not vice versa. I initially didn't like her ~_^).

Shay Guy wrote:

spoiler[The other reason, of course, being that witches can commune with animals.]


Your spoiler hits the mark, sir Anime smile
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purplepolecat



Joined: 15 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 7:41 pm Reply with quote
The most heartbreaking moment in the whole series is when Anthy immediately starts addressing Utena as "Tenjou-san" instead of "Utena-sama" after Touga wins the duel, as if they are strangers. There's a more obvious physical betrayal at the end of the series, but this one struck me as more cruel. What could be worse than discovering that your closest friend was just pretending to like you from the very beginning?
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