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DanQ
Joined: 07 Feb 2004
Posts: 114
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Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 4:31 am
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purplepolecat wrote: | The most heartbreaking moment in the whole series is when Anthy immediately starts addressing Utena as "Tenjou-san" instead of "Utena-sama" after Touga wins the duel, as if they are strangers. There's a more obvious physical betrayal at the end of the series, but this one struck me as more cruel. What could be worse than discovering that your closest friend was just pretending to like you from the very beginning? |
Tell that to Saionji-senpai ~_^.
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whiskeyii
Joined: 29 May 2013
Posts: 2245
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Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:56 am
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@purplepolecat, that's a pretty big late-game spoiler, so you might want consider tagging that. ^^;
I have to admit, the Black Rose arc was my least favorite arc of the show. Not so much for the content, I think, but rather the format. This is, in my opinion, the most 90's of the arcs in a very "Monster of the Week" setup. That said, I do adore the added depths it gives to previously unexplored side characters. I'm also looking forward to an analysis of the Onion Prince episode, as I never quite understood the why of it, even if it never bothered me on a narrative level.
I also appreciate the detailed look at the stained glass window themes; while I understood on a basic level how each of those themes related to their respective duels, I'd never really considered how they related to the winner and losers. Initially I wrote this off as the one recap episode that was potentially skippable, but now I think that episode might have a lot more to add than I'd realized.
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Tiago97
Joined: 22 Dec 2016
Posts: 14
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Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:29 am
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So, what happened to these reviews? They got me to finally watch Utena, and I was watching at the pace the reviews came out, and then they suddenly stopped after changing schedule. Everything okay with Jacob?
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BodaciousSpacePirate
Subscriber
Joined: 17 Apr 2015
Posts: 3017
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Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:41 pm
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Tiago97 wrote: | So, what happened to these reviews? They got me to finally watch Utena, and I was watching at the pace the reviews came out, and then they suddenly stopped after changing schedule. Everything okay with Jacob? |
They start back up on July 21st.
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Tiago97
Joined: 22 Dec 2016
Posts: 14
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Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:17 pm
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BodaciousSpacePirate wrote: | They start back up on July 21st. |
Great! Thanks.
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JacobC
ANN Contributor
Joined: 15 Jan 2008
Posts: 3728
Location: SoCal
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Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 6:23 pm
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Hey guys, just a heads-up that today's scheduled review will be up tomorrow at the same scheduled time instead. (Noon EST) Thank you for your patience.
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whiskeyii
Joined: 29 May 2013
Posts: 2245
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Posted: Sat Jul 22, 2017 4:53 pm
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I have to admit that Kozue's subplot always rang a bit hollow for me. Maybe that's because I'm a twin myself, but out of all the Black Rose duelists, Kozue and Miki's relationship always felt the most fantastical and tropey, whereas everyone else's interpersonal relationships felt more realistic and grounded.
It's kind of a shame, because the fears about growing apart as you and your twin grow older are valid, but I think it was handled far better in something like Space Brothers (or even the Rugrats All Growed Up episode) than it was here.
Last edited by whiskeyii on Sun Jul 23, 2017 11:52 am; edited 1 time in total
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invalidname
Contributor
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 2444
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
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Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 8:52 am
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Quote: | On its surface, this might appear to be a simple and silly morality play about the dangers of vanity, like "The Emperor's New Clothes" with an udderly absurd twist. |
Quote: | Of course, all these morbid messages are totally tenderized by the ridiculous reality of this episode's plot. |
I have a beef with all the bovine puns peppered throughout this week's review.
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Zin5ki
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Posts: 6680
Location: London, UK
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Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 10:19 am
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Whilst Nanami's cowbell episode requires the viewer to respect the sobering aspect of an absurdity, which is quite a gamble when it comes engaging an audience, there was still something refreshing to it in comparison to the previous Black Rose episodes.
I have in mind its climax. You see, I would rather that the conflict of the episode's central character is resolved through a novel form of altercation—and nothing can be more novel than an impromptu bullfight—than through another duel that Utena seems certain to win. It stops the finer features of each character study from being offset and overshadowed by a formulaic structure.
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Shay Guy
Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 2115
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Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 2:19 pm
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I don't think I was ever able to bring myself to hate Shiori. I just felt sad. Which would probably infuriate her much worse than being hated.
I have trouble imagining what she would be like if not for the way she keeps hurting herself and Juri. That aspect of her is so overwhelming that I struggle to think of what her neglected strengths even are. Which may just underscore her tragedy all the more.
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whiskeyii
Joined: 29 May 2013
Posts: 2245
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Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 3:00 pm
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Shay Guy wrote: | I don't think I was ever able to bring myself to hate Shiori. I just felt sad. Which would probably infuriate her much worse than being hated.
I have trouble imagining what she would be like if not for the way she keeps hurting herself and Juri. That aspect of her is so overwhelming that I struggle to think of what her neglected strengths even are. Which may just underscore her tragedy all the more. |
Count me in the "hated Shiori" camp. I remember feeling that she was a little too one-note for me with her massive sense of self-loathing, but even though her reasons for her self-loathing are obviously nuanced and complicated, it was really hard for me to scrounge up even a modicum of sympathy for her because she seemed to delight in trying to drag others down to her level all the while. It wasn't til her second mini-arc that I started to feel anything more than mingled frustration and disgust for her, as cruel as that is to say.
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Scherzo
Joined: 27 Feb 2013
Posts: 149
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Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 4:44 pm
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Sort of off topic, but something I've been thinking about. I don't mean to defend current gender and sexual inequalities, but I sort of was wondering what specifically Jake's is meaning when talking about the status quo in society. Obviously I don't think that traditions should be imposed on people merely because 'that's the way it's always been', but is it wrong to identify with and derive value from cultural norms, so long as you don't force others to abide by it? Though, I would say it does benefit people to be self-aware of how their beliefs are shaped by their culture, even if they do ultimately identify with them.
On topic, it's been a couple years since I've watched the show myself, so I can't be entirely certain about my opinions on its structure, but I remember not liking the Black Rose arc that much. I get it being character studies, but on my first watch it seemed to disrupt the flow of the narrative too much for me.
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whiskeyii
Joined: 29 May 2013
Posts: 2245
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Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 6:15 pm
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Scherzo wrote: | Sort of off topic, but something I've been thinking about. I don't mean to defend current gender and sexual inequalities, but I sort of was wondering what specifically Jake's is meaning when talking about the status quo in society. Obviously I don't think that traditions should be imposed on people merely because 'that's the way it's always been', but is it wrong to identify with and derive value from cultural norms, so long as you don't force others to abide by it? Though, I would say it does benefit people to be self-aware of how their beliefs are shaped by their culture, even if they do ultimately identify with them.
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I'm not sure if you're referring to a specific mention by Jake of the status quo, but you've kind of answered your own question there. In the world of Ohtori, everyone is imposed on, even our heroine, for all Utena's obviously good qualities. Touga is caught up in the idea of what a "prince" should be, Saionji is practically drowning in toxic masculinity, Juri is slowly dying inside due to a world that expects heterosexuality, etc., etc. All these ideas, of how people should act according to their genders, of how relationships are "supposed" to go, those are examples of real life status quo ideas--you only have to look so far as the pervasive "Men are from Mars, women are from Venus" silliness for that--which are being extracted from their real-life entanglements and placed in a microcosm, the school, so that viewers can more readily examine what those confines mean, especially for people who do not adhere to them.
There is no "not forcing people to abide by cultural norms" in this show--and yes, that extends to Utena herself as well--and that's in part because many, many cultural norms are simply taken for granted and not examined unless one is directly confronted with it, like many of these characters are.
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Scherzo
Joined: 27 Feb 2013
Posts: 149
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Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 11:33 am
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whiskeyii wrote: |
I'm not sure if you're referring to a specific mention by Jake of the status quo, but you've kind of answered your own question there. In the world of Ohtori, everyone is imposed on, even our heroine, for all Utena's obviously good qualities. Touga is caught up in the idea of what a "prince" should be, Saionji is practically drowning in toxic masculinity, Juri is slowly dying inside due to a world that expects heterosexuality, etc., etc. All these ideas, of how people should act according to their genders, of how relationships are "supposed" to go, those are examples of real life status quo ideas--you only have to look so far as the pervasive "Men are from Mars, women are from Venus" silliness for that--which are being extracted from their real-life entanglements and placed in a microcosm, the school, so that viewers can more readily examine what those confines mean, especially for people who do not adhere to them.
There is no "not forcing people to abide by cultural norms" in this show--and yes, that extends to Utena herself as well--and that's in part because many, many cultural norms are simply taken for granted and not examined unless one is directly confronted with it, like many of these characters are. |
Sorry, I didn't mean to say Jake had said anything wrong. I'm not saying that the way society often pushes people into boxes isn't harmful. I get the feeling though that Ikuhara is a bit of a radical anarchist in the sense that he doesn't believe that there is any positive result from interacting with society; that societies are inevitably abusive hierarchies that stunt the actualization of true self and happiness. And while I think that's an argument worth considering, it's not one I personally agree with, not entirely at least. I don't believe there is a true self that exists entirely independent of social context; everyone to some degree is embedded within their social circumstances. A transgender person can chafe against the tyranny of the expectations of biological sex in a society while simultaneously, just as an example, still identify with its values of liberal democracy.
I think there's quite a lot to be said about how society plays a role in cultivating self, and not in a purely negative role but also a positive one as well. I get the appeal of the transcendental self, and in a lot of ways I'm extremely pro-Individualism. But I feel that a picture of society as deleterious to a meaningful sense of self is incomplete.
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whiskeyii
Joined: 29 May 2013
Posts: 2245
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Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 12:00 pm
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Yeah, I realized afterwards that my reply might come off as confrontational, which was not my intent at all, so sorry about that. ^^;
As for Ikuhara, I don't think he's advocating for the total abandonment of all societal norms. Rather, I think he's arguing against the patriarchal, heteronormative status quo (which, let's face it, is pretty much the universal status quo), and I think this is pretty evident given the ending. Utena graduating means she no longer "fits" in the world of Ohtori, and no longer plays by that world's rules of what it means to be a Prince, or a Princess, or a boy, or a girl. She no longer allows herself to be hemmed in by the patriarchal, heteronormative status quo.
I think it's also worth remembering that while Utena has pretty strong universal appeal, it's still a show made for a Japanese audience, and Japan has some pretty strong social penalties for not adhering to cultural norms.
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