Forum - View topicDiversity in anime.
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Mad_Scientist
 SubscriberModerator  Posts: 3011 |
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Funny enough, I apply my own "straight white male" test. If the character is a straight white cis male, and the story would not have suffered in any way for it being different(which is 99.9% of the time), then there was no value in the character being a straight white cis male, and in fact, most likely the story is worse off from it since stories about straight white cis males flood the market and variety is a good thing. Though obviously this test is modified when applied to anime, as for one thing, most anime tends to star Japanese characters as opposed to white characters. |
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Stuart Smith
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Presumably because most content creators are white and want to write white characters. Or in anime's case, Japanese writing for Japanese. Seems the main issue here is people want Japanese writers to make more minority characters as if it's somehow a Japanese person's job to write about minorities. Seems pretty unfair to criticize a writer for writing what they want. White or Japanese. -Stuart Smith |
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Errinundra
Moderator
 Posts: 6525 Location: Melbourne, Oz |
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I was initially attracted to anime and still watch it because it does things differently from other TV, film or video media. It's at its best when it's subversive. So, like Mad_Scientist, I also do a "straight white male" test and, if it conforms to that overused category, I go "meh" and most likely move on.
Also, people, leave out the political namecalling, whether aimed at the left or the right. |
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Blood-
 Bargain Hunter Posts: 23770 |
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Errinundra, I'm glad that you are older than me. It leaves open the possibility I may be able to enjoy ANN some day without the blight of your ham-fisted, overbearing censorship. I'm going to try this again:
Yeah, I'd love to know how having ethnically or sexually diverse characters for the sake of showing ethnic or sexual diversity is a problem. To me that's like saying, "the problem with being mindful of comedy is you get to point where suddenly characters are being made comedic for the sake of being funny." |
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Redbeard 101
Oscar the Grouch
Forums Superstar  Posts: 16935 |
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You want to know why having diverse characters simply for the sake of it can be a problem? I'll bite.
When you add anything to a movie, anime, manga, story, etc for the sake of simply doing it then you are not thinking of the actual story first. You're thinking of political, societal, or some other more secondary reason for doing it. It can take away from the story or make it convoluted if it was not intended as such. I'm not saying it's a guarantee, but it is a possibility. "We're going to add in this lesbian character, this autistic character, and this gay jewish black male character for the sake of simply being diverse. No we didn't actually weave them into the story for more altruistic reasons or because it was what we originally wanted. We did it simply to shut people up" In those sorts of situations it CAN be a problem. It CAN take away from the story or on the flip side add unneeded complications that do not fit. It can make the story a jumbled mess trying to make all these "diverse" characters make sense in a story that was not designed for it. Plus if you're just doing for the sake of it then it's empty and hollow. I'm going to copy something I read elsewhere on the topic (diversity in literature but it applies here as well) that says it much better than I could. "Tokenism means that no true effort is made to represent the minority. Concessions are merely symbolic to appease those who demand ethnic diversity. Tolerating tokenism means allowing for the inclusion of that very dependable Asian friend who is so smart and hardworking but otherwise bland. It allows for that crazy Latino girl and her lazy brother. It allows for “exotic” characters with little substance. In essence, it accepts the bare minimum and calls this progress." Now I am not an alt right meathead thank you very much. I am a moderate liberal for lack of better phrase. I am all for equal rights and I do think there should be more diversity in hollywood, books, anime, & entertainment as a whole. HOWEVER, it should be done right. That gay black man, autistic lesbian, or whatever else should be in story A because that author, screen writer, etc wrote them into it on purpose. They did it because they wanted to and because they were creating a story that they wanted that specific character in. That character is there because they are central to that story and without them the story would not make sense or would be incomplete. They don't even have to be an MC or a central part of the story, just don't be a token diverse character that fits a stereotype and adds nothing to the actual story. That's why having diverse characters simply for the sake of it can be a problem. |
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Mad_Scientist
Subscriber Moderator Posts: 3011 |
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"Having diverse characters just for the sake of it"? As opposed to what? Non diverse characters? Why does no one talk about having "non diverse characters just for the sake of it?"
That's the problem I see with a lot of complaints about diversity. The assumption that white straight cis male etc is the DEFAULT. And that they can be included all the time, for NO reason. But if you diverge from that, you need a reason. Why do we need "reasons" to include black characters, yet not need them to include a white characters? Why is a straight hero just "normal" and not at all required to be plot relevant, but a gay hero is "forced" or a "token" unless you give some detailed story explanation for why them being gay is important? So I'll take what you said, and turn it on its head. Let's use white characters as an example. Never, ever include white characters unless you have a good reason for it. It HAS to be important to the story that the character is white. If not, then it's forced whiteness, and bad. So let's take Harry Potter. Harry, Hermoine, Ron? All white. Forced whiteness. Tokens. Bad. Star Trek Captains? Kirk, Janeway, Archer, and Picard are all white. Them being white isn't important to the story. Forced whiteness. Tokens. Bad. Star Wars? Luke, Han, Lela, all white. Them being white is meaningless to the story. There's no good reason for them to be white. Forced whiteness. Tokens. Bad. If you think I'm being absurd and reductive, realize that what I'm arguing about white character now is essentially what people are arguing about diverse characters. Right now, the white cis straight male, and sometimes female, is considered the default. Such characters can exist in a story, and practically no one looks for or demands some "reason" for them to be white, or straight. Yet any character that diverges needs some reason or it's considered "forced." This is harmful marginalized folks. And ironically enough, it provides a good reason to include diverse characters. The reason is to change the default. To get people used to seeing diverse characters in situations where the plot doesn't revolve around their diversity. A character shouldn't need a "reason" to be black, or gay, or trans. They should be able to simply exist as such, the way a character can simply exist as white, or straight, or cis. Until that happens, until people no longer assume things like "white" as a default and demand long explanations anytime something else is shown, then yes, there is a very good reason to include diverse characters in every roll possible. And yes, tokenism can be a problem, but the solution to tokenism is MORE diverse characters, not less. |
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鏡
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I didn't know asking for explanations of opinions I don't understand constituted "begging an argument". As for criticizing writers, I don't think anyone was actually doing that - the thread is about whether we think anime should have more diversity, not about whether individual writers have made mistakes by not writing more diverse stories. |
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ChibiKangaroo
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I think mad scientist explained it pretty darn well there. If you want more reading on the topic of the "default" concept, there was an article written some time back (I forget by whom, but you can Google it) called "What if the player was black." It delves deep into the topic in the context of video games. Suffice it to say, you shouldn't have to have a special reason to include a minority character. They should just be normally in stuff. And the argument that they are somehow being "forced" in or whatever just never holds water. No one has presented any evidence of artists forced to do anything of the sort. It's a straw man position meant to make diversity seem scary.
Also, in the anime context, consider Afro Samurai. Notwithstanding that black people do not have any particular role as samurai in Japanese folklore or history, some Japanese dude was like, "hey it would be cool if I made this revenge samurai story and instead of having a Japanese dude like everyone would expect, I'll make it a black dude." Then he had a hugely successful series with 2 anime adaptations and multiple mangas. Some people would claim he "forced" a black guy into a Japanese story. Well they are the people who don't have enough vision to make such successful new material. |
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Stuart Smith
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It's the default because that's what the creator knows best. Would you criticise Empire defaulting to black characters because the creator is black? They're defaulting to their own race after all. Why should it be any different for a work made by a Japanese person or a white person? Simply put, the reason most American leads are white is because they're made by white people. The reason Japanese leads are usually Japanese is because they're made by Japanese. All the examples you listed fall into that category. JK Rowling, George Lucas, and Gene Roddenberry are all white. Amazing enough, movies and shows directed by black people usually have black characters. Same with Japanese creators. Same in Bollywood. If people want more diverse work, then they should get into the field and make what they want to see. -Stuart Smith |
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Mad_Scientist
Subscriber Moderator Posts: 3011 |
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Did J K Rowling ever go to a wizard school, or use magic?
Did Gene Roddenberry ever ride on a starship, or battle Klingons? Did George Lucas ever channel a mystical energy field and move things with his mind? I'm sorry, but "they're just writing what they know" is a transparent excuse for excluding diversity. And "if you want more diversity, just write it yourself" is a cop out because it ignores that a) There are often a lot of barriers that make it difficult for marginalized folks to succeed and they tend to not have the same opportunities as more privileged folks b) Even when the above doesn't happen, their works are STILL considered a divergence from the default, and "forced" and/or an attempt to push a political agenda. |
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Zin5ki
 Posts: 6680 Location: London, UK |
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I concur with all of Mad_Scientist's points. A status quo wherein certain perspectives are not represented in fiction due to barriers to entry is morally unsatisfactory, and so too is any attempt to use this status quo as an excuse for such a lack of perspectives. An identifiable cause for a problem does not double as a good reason for the problem's existence.
Given such an unfortunate status quo, we can only demand on behalf of underrepresented individuals that an effort is made to cater for them, ideally with a degree of research being undertaken by writers to account for their limited acquaintance. As Psycho 101 indicates, this can easily result in problematic works, but this outcome is not universal: Utena and Yuri on Ice are notable successes in this respect. It goes without saying that a state of affairs wherein writers simply shy away from attempting to cover unfamiliar perspectives would be far dourer. |
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ChibiKangaroo
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Empire doesn't have a black cast because the person writing or creating it is black. It has a black cast because someone decided to do a story about a black entertainment empire, just like Afro Samurai is black because some Japanese guy decided to do a story about a black samurai. The funny thing for me is that you make this argument about Empire "defaulting to black characters because the creator is black" when you could have done the most miniscule research on Google to educate yourself about the fact that Empire has two creators, one of whom is Danny Strong, who is WHITE. Not only is Mr. Strong co-creator for Empire, but he is also executive producer and writer. See, you just assumed that Empire was created by black people because that's how your perspective sees things. White people create things with white people and black people create things with black people, and Japanese create things with Japanese people (this last one you should already have known was totally false as an anime fan, since white characters appear routinely in anime, but because you accept white as the default you would expect white people in all media anyway.) This is a very narrow perspective on media that seeks to promote and in some cases enforce ethnic/racial segregated media, by claiming that "diversity" in media is somehow bad and illegitimate. That perspective doesn't allow for new perspectives to be expressed and embraced. For example, Mr. Strong won an award from the NAACP for his work in creating Empire. Obviously, that organization believes that his perspective on a black media empire is noteworthy. Also, I don't know how much you have heard about the Disney show Doc McStuffins. It is a hugely popular kids show about a little black girl who pretends she is a doctor to her stuffed animals. Guess what, also created by a white woman. Look at Stan Lee. He's created many of the most popular black super heroes. If perspectives like yours had won out, we wouldn't have a lot of the great content we have today. Usually, greatness in media comes from creators reaching outside of their mundane lives and creating something that is different and new. This is true when it comes to ethnicity just like other subjects. Last edited by ChibiKangaroo on Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:55 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter Posts: 23770 |
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This point has already been made, but I'll put it into my own words: I like diversity not simply because I think that representing it more accurately reflects the real world and because I like the idea of traditionally marginalized groups getting to "see" more characters that look like them and reflect their experiences... but because I like encountering different looks and different perspectives. If black, lesbian, wheelchair protagonists became the dominant model then at a certain point, I'd go, "enough. Show me something different." I reached that point with white, straight, male protagonists a long time ago. Show. me. something. different.
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Animegomaniac
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"Show me something different?" or "be something different?" or, to put it simply, who's telling the story here, some white guy or someone else? Example: I recently saw the movie Get Out. That was different, not because it had a black male protagonist but because it was written and directed by one... unlike Night of the Living Dead which had a male black protagonist but was written, well, not only by a white male but was written just to be a random guy, read that as *white*, and Duane Jones just happened to be the best actor. The audience reaction at the time would matter and certainly add subtext to the character that's not there on the screen but 50 years later, there's nothing to it for the modern audience, it's just a guy as it was written.... we could get into the blatant sexism of the female characters but that could fill another post. Get Out is different and will probably always be different as its perspective is authentic. It's not written with a motive in mind but rather that perspective, something Ghostbusters 2016 was too lazy to do.... again, sexism would be another post. Essay, book. Ok, look, racism is systemic these days but sexism, that's pretty much in our DNA. Among other places where it shouldn't be... We accept it on a much baser level because our species requires it. As to the topic of diversity in anime: There is no racial diversity and it's why most non-Japanese characters tend to be thin stereotypes... even Koreans in Japan are more of a myth than anything else in anime. Sexually? Oh boy... Even female leads written by woman are, how to put it... Must. Resist. Urge. To. Quote. James. Bond... |
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Stuart Smith
Posts: 1298 |
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The first is only a problem if you think someone is entitled to make a successful product. Most people will never make a show regardless of what group they belong to. And sorry, it just sounds like an excuse. Plenty of people have gone from rags to riches through hard work. If mangaka who grew up in homes who couldn't even afford a 250 yen copy of a manga magazine or had to wear hand-me-down clothes can make some of the biggest series out there, then people with apparently easy access to the internet and enough time to complain about things are certainly in a better off starting position. The second is a strawman. It's a case by case basis. Usually the most resistance comes up in cases where changing established characters and settings in order to be more diverse like Hollywood anime adaptions, replacing superheroes, and so forth. Lazy attempts like those are fair game to be criticized, I feel.
A black man was involved in Empire's creation, though. The fact you are diminishing his role to negligible size in favor of a white man to prove a point seems incredibly dishonest. I did also say 'usually'. Yes, you can find some anime with white leads, but most are Japanese. American characters are usually white because most Americans are white. -Stuart Smith |
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