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Diversity in anime.

ChibiKangaroo wrote:

See, you just assumed that Empire was created by black people because that's how your perspective sees things. White people create things with white people and black people create things with black people, and Japanese create things with Japanese people (this last one you should already have known was totally false as an anime fan, since white characters appear routinely in anime, but because you accept white as the default you would expect white people in all media anyway.)

A black man was involved in Empire's creation, though. The fact you are diminishing his role to negligible size in favor of a white man to prove a point seems incredibly dishonest. I did also say 'usually'. Yes, you can find some anime with white leads, but most are Japanese. American characters are usually white because most Americans are white.

-Stuart Smith

Mad_Scientist wrote:

And "if you want more diversity, just write it yourself" is a cop out because it ignores that a) There are often a lot of barriers that make it difficult for marginalized folks to succeed and they tend to not have the same opportunities as more privileged folks b) Even when the above doesn't happen, their works are STILL considered a divergence from the default, and "forced" and/or an attempt to push a political agenda.

The first is only a problem if you think someone is entitled to make a successful product. Most people will never make a show regardless of what group they belong to. And sorry, it just sounds like an excuse. Plenty of people have gone from rags to riches through hard work. If mangaka who grew up in homes who couldn't even afford a 250 yen copy of a manga magazine or had to wear hand-me-down clothes can make some of the biggest series out there, then people with apparently easy access to the internet and enough time to complain about things are certainly in a better off starting position.

The second is a strawman. It's a case by case basis. Usually the most resistance comes up in cases where changing established characters and settings in order to be more diverse like Hollywood anime adaptions, replacing superheroes, and so forth. Lazy attempts like those are fair game to be criticized, I feel.

Quote:

The second is a strawman. It's a case by case basis. Usually the most resistance comes up in cases where changing established characters and settings in order to be more diverse like Hollywood anime adaptions, replacing superheroes, and so forth. Lazy attempts like those are fair game to be criticized, I feel.

Oh sure, that's why there was such a huge backlash when Star Wars decided to make Luke black... oh wait, they didn't make Luke black, they just made a new character black.

Or that's why people screamed that Bill Murray got turned into a girl- oh wait, no, it was new characters who were women in a Ghostbusters movie.

Sorry, but no one is gonna buy your argument.

There are always exceptions. Just because SOME individuals can sometimes overcome harsh circumstances doesn't mean that those circumstances didn't still disadvantage them, or that they don't disadvantage other people. Your argument is on the level of "Obama got elected president, so clearly racism can't exist anymore."

Also Internet access is hardly a big indicator of wealth, considering tons and tons of literally homeless people still have Internet access through libraries, shelters, WiFi hotspots, etc. It still amazes me that people act like Internet access is some big indicator of privilege and wealth, and not one of the most basic services around, one that is now almost entirely necessary to even function at all in modern society. People who are literally starving can and often do still have access to the Internet.

But I think the most telling part of your response was your first line. I was talking about how entire groups of marginalized people are systematically disadvantaged, and you just... don't think it's a problem at all. You didn't even try to argue with me that this wasn't true. You pointed out how there are always exceptions, how sometimes people with disadvantages will still succeed. But you made no attempt to argue that certain groups don't, on an overall systematic level, have it worse.

You just don't care if they do. It's not a problem to you. Equal opportunities, freedom from discrimination?

Who cares if people have such a thing?

That is what you just argued.

Oh sure, that's why there was such a huge backlash when Star Wars decided to make Luke black... oh wait, they didn't make Luke black, they just made a new character black.

Or that's why people screamed that Bill Murray got turned into a girl- oh wait, no, it was new characters who were women in a Ghostbusters movie.

Sorry, but no one is gonna buy your argument. Also I have to laugh at the idea of Hollywood anime adaptions changing things to make them "more diverse"? The Major became a white person, Goku became a white person, and while Death Note made L black, it also made Light white, so you don't really have an argument there. Most Hollywood anime adaptions Americanize the production, which generally means characters become white. The fact that in ONE case ONE of the characters (who wasn't even Japanese in the original!) became black instead of white is somehow viewed by you as Hollywood forcing diversity is pretty telling.

Is it discrimination if it turns out most people don't want to read a comic about that subject?

I sincerely doubt the people with hundreds of thousands of tweets, blog/forum posts or articles on websites are poor, homeless people using the library. If they are, then their priorities are severely misplaced. These complaints are always by people who are at the very least have a comfortable enough living to be posting on social media all day and follow movies, games, current events well enough to keep in the know.

The internet makes a world of difference. This is an age where there are no limitation or barriers for putting your work online. Upload an animation or skit to YouTube, post your comic to Tumblr or some other site. Opportunities people didn't have back before the mid 90s and could only hope for an agent or company would look at their portfolio. Patreon makes it even easier since people will give you money for literally nothing. The barrier of entry for making a product about whatever kind of diversity you want is nonexistant. Whether a lot people are interested in it or not is another matter. Is it discrimination if it turns out most people don't want to read a comic about that subject?

[Star wars and Ghosbusters] were still franchises with male leads/were male oriented, so the complaints make perfect sense to me, even as someone who isn't a big fan of either franchise. To go off Animegomaniac's post, it's lazy in the sense you're using an already established franchise to make a diverse hero. You're still just piggybacking off an established character or franchise, even if you didn't throw Tony Stark away for Riri Williams. People also complained about Extreme Ghostbusters in the 90s which only lasted a single season compared to the 7 seasons of Real Ghostbusters. People pretty much expect the Ghostbusters to be Egon, Peter, Ray, and Winston.

You're delibretly ignoring the side cast of those movies. Goku was white, but there were black, Korean, Chinese, Russian, Welsh, and Japanese actors playing the side characters like Bulma and Roshi. Ghost in the Shell as well had an equally diverse casting. Batou was played by a Danish guy, Borma was black, Togusa was Singaporean. Even if the leads were white, there was still far more diversity than the original Japanese source material.

-Stuart Smith

Not sure if Star Wars and Fast and Furious are the best examples.

Star Wars is so recognizable that it wouldn't have mattered who they put in the lead role. Fast and Furious started off with a white male dude as kind of the main character. Well maybe Vin Diesel and Paul Walker kind of shared the lead role. I don't think losing Paul Walker really hurt the franschise though. The newest Fast and Furious seems to have been a pretty big success. I haven't seen it yet, but I will whenever it'll available on some streaming service or something. Maybe.

Diversity might disrespect historical accuracy when the production in question is a historical non-fiction set in Japan...for every other instance of diversity in anime (IE. in shows like Michiko and Hatchin) I'm not sure why it would break your immersion, or in what sense it lacks creativity.

You can complain all you want about Star Wars putting a woman in the lead role. It will still make billions more and you and all of your friends will see it.

鏡 wrote:

Diversity might disrespect historical accuracy when the production in question is a historical non-fiction set in Japan...for every other instance of diversity in anime (IE. in shows like Michiko and Hatchin) I'm not sure why it would break your immersion, or in what sense it lacks creativity.

If you want an example, there were those Disney Faries Tinkerbell films awhile back my neice used to watch. The fairies were all multicultural and diverse despite being born from the same method. Made no sense. If overanalyzing movies for preschoolers isnt your thing, Middle-Earth get criticized for all being white. Just because it's fantasy doesn't mean you can ignore world building and do whatever.

Guile wrote:

If you want an example, there were those Disney Faries Tinkerbell films awhile back my neice used to watch. The fairies were all multicultural and diverse despite being born from the same method. Made no sense. If overanalyzing movies for preschoolers isnt your thing, Middle-Earth get criticized for all being white. Just because it's fantasy doesn't mean you can ignore world building and do whatever.

Why would it make more sense for fairies to all be born with the same skin colour? Aren't they literally magic? Why would world-building in a fantasy setting be better served by racial homogeneity than racial diversity?

TFA was a success despite her being the lead. Do you seriously think TFA is a hit because of Rey rather than the return of the original trilogy cast for nostalgia? No one likes Rey, Hasbro themselves said as much. People like Jar Jar more than her, and that's saying something.

Would I watch an anime if the main character wasn't Japanese? Totally.