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Answerman - Who Are Subtitles Written For?


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leafy sea dragon



Joined: 27 Oct 2009
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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 3:47 pm Reply with quote
vonPeterhof wrote:
I have no idea what peno meant by "re-written dialogues", but if the distinction between B and V is important (as it apparently is in this case) the script will mark it clearly with a "bii" ビー or as a "buii/vuii" ヴィー (or, you know, with the actual Latin letters - Japan's no Northern Europe when it comes to ESL skills, but they do all know the letters at least). So, unless we're talking about dialogues sloppily transcribed by ear, they should tell you exactly if it's meant to be a V6 or a B6. But then, a translator who isn't familiar with the subject and hasn't done the research could possibly assume that the B was a typo, I guess.


I would say it might be possible the script was written by someone who frequently confuses "B" with "V" (much like how signs in Engrish frequently confuse "L" and "R"), but I figure that's probably a stretch.
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s0nicfreak



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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 4:47 pm Reply with quote
Tempest wrote:
Sherris wrote:
, please translate 'sushi' as 'raw fish on rice', Crunchy <sarcasm>.


The problem with leaving Japanese words in, even really basic ones like sushi, is that so many Americans don't understand them. They think they've groked the meaning of a Japanese word because they've seen it used frequently in a certain context, but actually, they don't understand the proper meaning word, and leaving it in Japanese would be doing them a disservice.

For example, an American might think that sushi is raw fish on rice, when in fact, it isn't.


Unless a person plans on taking the JLPT, I don't see the disservice in this.
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s0nicfreak



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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 5:22 pm Reply with quote
belvadeer wrote:

Exactly, and yet I've seen some especially stupid purists strongly believe they can actually speak Japanese in this manner rather than opening a textbook to learn the basic rules and to understand it thoroughly (which they claim is a boring "non-anime" way to learn it). It's quite pathetic to see them declare themselves knowledgable about the language when they're relying on a TV show or video game, especially because they're too stubborn and idiotic to realize that people don't talk in real life the way characters do in animated fiction. Having been a teacher myself, it's honestly embarrassing to see many younger folks be this stupid.

Don't get me wrong. Watching a show or playing a game in another language is a good way to immerse yourself in it and hear what it sounds like, but it should not be the sole outlet to learning it effectively.


Shouldn't this depend on the person's goal? If their goal is simply to play games and watch anime in Japanese (which is enough for most people's' lives, isn't it?), then learning "anime" Japanese is just fine, and I see no reason to find it embarrassing. If their goal is to go to Japan and have a conversation, or to get a (non-anime/game) translator job then it's not enough, but they'd realize that quickly.

I find it strange how accepting we (people in general) are of people that can't speak English completely correctly, but we jump all over people who dare to speak Japanese at the same level. No one ever speaks of embarrassment when someone speaks English with a thick accent, but don't you dare to have bad Japanese pronunciation! People who learn English from American media and say odd things that native speakers don't actually say - perfectly acceptable. People with a "baby voice" (which I have heard from many people raised in Asia) in English are accepted; but dare to speak "anime" Japanese aloud and suddenly you're the shame of all anime fans everywhere. I don't get it.
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peno



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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 10:10 am Reply with quote
leafy sea dragon wrote:
peno wrote:

The problem with this, however, is that most of the time (actually more like practically always) the translators don't have audio and video of the source material. They are translating from re-written dialogues which may or may not have some additional notes. They are unable to hear if the ビー written in their script is spoken as "bui" or "bii", unless they have some additional note to lead them in the right direction.


How do the actors know what to say then?

Actually, I was talking merely about translators, not actors. The actors in dubs not only have translated and edited dub script, but also have video in front of them and may even have the original sound in headphones. Translators don't have that. They are translating from written scripts, submitted by the original creators, which have dialogues and may (but also may not) have some other additional notes from creators.
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leafy sea dragon



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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 11:51 am Reply with quote
peno wrote:
leafy sea dragon wrote:
peno wrote:

The problem with this, however, is that most of the time (actually more like practically always) the translators don't have audio and video of the source material. They are translating from re-written dialogues which may or may not have some additional notes. They are unable to hear if the ビー written in their script is spoken as "bui" or "bii", unless they have some additional note to lead them in the right direction.


How do the actors know what to say then?

Actually, I was talking merely about translators, not actors. The actors in dubs not only have translated and edited dub script, but also have video in front of them and may even have the original sound in headphones. Translators don't have that. They are translating from written scripts, submitted by the original creators, which have dialogues and may (but also may not) have some other additional notes from creators.


Oh, what I was talking about are the Japanese actors, who would get the Japanese script. If they see "ビー" in the script, how would they know it's "B," "V," or something else? Of course, I was also told that they likely have the letter itself in the script, which would clear up a lot of confusion.
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vonPeterhof



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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 12:20 pm Reply with quote
leafy sea dragon wrote:
f they see "ビー" in the script, how would they know it's "B," "V," or something else?
In case I wasn't clear, ビー always refers to B; V is ヴィー, or sometimes ブィー. The difference between the two sounds may be blurred in loanwords and proper names, but the names of the letters are always distinct.
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leafy sea dragon



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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 12:22 pm Reply with quote
vonPeterhof wrote:
In case I wasn't clear, ビー always refers to B; V is ヴィー, or sometimes ブィー. The difference between the two sounds may be blurred in loanwords and proper names, but the names of the letters are always distinct.


Yeah, you did mention that, and I forgot about it. Sorry.
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Banken



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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 6:14 am Reply with quote
peno wrote:
leafy sea dragon wrote:
peno wrote:

The problem with this, however, is that most of the time (actually more like practically always) the translators don't have audio and video of the source material. They are translating from re-written dialogues which may or may not have some additional notes. They are unable to hear if the ビー written in their script is spoken as "bui" or "bii", unless they have some additional note to lead them in the right direction.


How do the actors know what to say then?

Actually, I was talking merely about translators, not actors. The actors in dubs not only have translated and edited dub script, but also have video in front of them and may even have the original sound in headphones. Translators don't have that. They are translating from written scripts, submitted by the original creators, which have dialogues and may (but also may not) have some other additional notes from creators.


LOL, no. An anime translator for simulcast series will be lucky if they even have high-quality video files to work with, much less an actual script.

At least, every video translation I've ever done has been by listening.

I would bet only proper video releases are actually translated via scripts.
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Shiroi Hane
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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 1:22 pm Reply with quote
I've definitely seen translations that were done from scripts, as in there are mistakes made that shouldn't happen with reference to the video.
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peno



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PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2017 5:44 am Reply with quote
Banken wrote:

LOL, no. An anime translator for simulcast series will be lucky if they even have high-quality video files to work with, much less an actual script.

At least, every video translation I've ever done has been by listening.

I would bet only proper video releases are actually translated via scripts.

Actually, no. Most of the official subs are not done from video. If you were working on fansubs, then yes, you were doing that by ear. However, in official translations, translators don't usually see the video or even hear an audio. There may be some exceptions, but those are scarce. The video will not come into the process until timing (or script editing for dubs). And that is especially true for simulcast subs, where the video is not usually delivered until a few hours before release time and at that time, the translation has to be done already, so the timing process may start. Hence, the translation is done from scripts, which, however, may not be final scripts and may require additional translations once the final work is eventually submitted. I believe there were an Answerman article regarding this.
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doomydoomdoom



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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2017 11:35 am Reply with quote
I never did understand why pro translators feel they have to appeal to "the masses who don't understand the difference between Asian languages/cultures" anyhow, as such people who are that dumb/uneducated will not be watching subtitled anime anyhow. They will watch it dubbed if they watch anime at all, save for the odd big movie and TV fans who will watch anything including cartoons and happen across a subbed-only copy of something interesting.

Obviously, though, you can't turn a translation into a Japanese class. But neither should you cheat the viewer by making up new puns/jokes and trying to find ways around cultural items (itadakimasu and the dreaded Let's Eat which is not what itadakimasu means at all as any veteran anime buff knows by now)
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leafy sea dragon



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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2017 12:43 pm Reply with quote
doomydoomdoom wrote:
I never did understand why pro translators feel they have to appeal to "the masses who don't understand the difference between Asian languages/cultures" anyhow, as such people who are that dumb/uneducated will not be watching subtitled anime anyhow. They will watch it dubbed if they watch anime at all, save for the odd big movie and TV fans who will watch anything including cartoons and happen across a subbed-only copy of something interesting.


That's an incredibly condescending, elitist tone in that paragraph there, referring to "the masses" as "dumb/uneducated." An anime fan is not necessarily smarter than anything else. Maybe more knowledgeable on anime, but it does not mean everyone else is stupid. If anything, what I keep seeing are the hardcore anime fans who can tell you a lot about anime but have an incredibly narrow knowledge base on everything else that isn't part of their schooling or job. (It's not just anime fans, but hardcore fans of near anything, as they're so intensely dedicated to their hobbies that they don't exhibit interest in anything else.) THAT, if you ask me, is a sign of dumbness and uneducatedness.

You also make it sound like dubbed anime does not use pro translators, which doesn't make any sense--something like Samurai Pizza Cats is an exception rather than a rule.

Also, anime is a type of cartoon. I'm not sure if it was intentional or not, but as a fan of cartoons in general, the statement about cartoons struck a nerve with me because the statement was worded as if the only people who watch cartoons are people who will watch anything, which is very untrue. It also suggests that people who watch anime don't watch any other forms of animation, to which I'd say anyone who does that is missing out on a lot.

Finally, there is a sweeping generalization here assuming that casual fans don't watch anime subbed unless they stumble across them. There is plenty of overlap, trust me.

doomydoomdoom wrote:
Obviously, though, you can't turn a translation into a Japanese class. But neither should you cheat the viewer by making up new puns/jokes and trying to find ways around cultural items (itadakimasu and the dreaded Let's Eat which is not what itadakimasu means at all as any veteran anime buff knows by now)


It's definitely a subject of much flame-warring, but I am on the side of substituting puns and jokes if they cannot be translated over. The purpose of puns and jokes is to be humorous, and, as the Joker has said many times, "a joke isn't funny if you have to explain it." I am also on the side of having as few translator's notes and cultural notes as possible, as it reflects poorly on the translator's own writing skill and their mastery of the language being translated to if they cannot explain something through dialogue and on-screen text alone.

(I actually was never that interested in Japanese culture and know what I know through osmosis. So I actually don't fully understand "itadakimasu"--what short phrase should it be translated to if not "let's eat"?)
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Gina Szanboti



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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2017 2:02 pm Reply with quote
leafy sea dragon wrote:
So I actually don't fully understand "itadakimasu"--what short phrase should it be translated to if not "let's eat"?

This seems like a pretty knowledgeable explanation to me. Certainly more of one than you'll get from watching anime. Smile


Last edited by Gina Szanboti on Thu May 25, 2017 4:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
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leafy sea dragon



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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2017 3:05 pm Reply with quote
Gina Szanboti wrote:

This seems like a pretty knowledgeable explanation to me. Certainly more of one than you'll get from watching anime. Smile


Ah, thanks. I DO see the phrase "I humbly receive" in some translations, and I also sometimes see "Thank you for the meal," which I'm sure is due to there also being a western prayer before a meal (though it's thanks to the Lord rather than...whomever "itadakimasu" is addressed to).

I always thought it WAS the equivalent of "We thank the Lord for this meal," though that's a cultural aspect I never fully understood either as I have never partaken in any form of pre-meal ritual (and neither did my parents). I didn't know it was something secular until that link.

So many things to do to behave acceptably in Japan...I don't think I could stand living there for more than a week, even if I knew the language, as I wouldn't be able to keep track of it all.
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relyat08



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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2017 10:14 pm Reply with quote
itadakimasu can be used, and often is used, in business settings or settings where you are speaking with someone superior to you, from my understanding as well. It's not just for food, but "I humbly receive" this item, your help, anything like that. I frequent a language sharing forum called hinative, and people regularly thank Japanese users for their help by saying something like advice/help/etc wo itadakimashita.
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