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Answerman - Why Aren't New Dubs Made For Old-School Shows?


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Gina Szanboti



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 10:05 pm Reply with quote
DmonHiro wrote:
JoeOfTomorrow wrote:
This is what I've always hated about the anime industry

Sadly the rest of the world didn't do much better. Most infamous example is how BBC deleted tapes of old Doctor Who episodes because they though they'd never need them again.

I'd say NASA taping over the Apollo 11 moon landing footage is probably worse.
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Kadmos1



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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 4:46 am Reply with quote
Even when those older tittles become public domain in the USA (currently copyright laws here put it 95 years from creation), doing fan-dubs will be hard. This is because those Japanese companies may not even be around anymore to supply the masters that can be used to dub on.
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jr240483



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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 5:41 am Reply with quote
Shay Guy wrote:
Nadia and Tylor got dubs a decade after the fact, didn't they? And cult classics though they may be, I don't think either is exactly Escaflowne-tier.

ADV's dub of the then-23-year-old SDF Macross probably made more financial sense.


considering that it didn't do so well is a mood point. and is probably why the other two series as well as the other macross series haven't gotten a dub let alone released in the US.

Answerman wrote:
Unfortunately, older content, especially older content that hasn't been established as a "classic" across the board, is a very tough sell.


i wouldnt say that. considering that card captor sakura is a true classic , but it got completely shafted by NIS America and was given the god awful Animax Asia dub instead of giving the series the SM and escaflone treatment, i would say that the notion that an old anime series must be established as a classic across the board to warrant an english dub is half baked at best. in fact most old series that tend to be classics dont necessarily mean it will do well in the US. one examples is when ADV attempted to do a dub version for macross and saint seiya. both series were basically financial disasters and is why the other eps for those series werent picked up. hell none of the old school gundam titles like turn a , double zeta and victory got dub releases, but unlike macross and seiya, those series would definitely had done well.

so its as i say, just because your a well named anime classic, doesnt mean you'll automatically get an english dub let alone that it sell well if any company decides on taking that financial risk.
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MarshalBanana



Joined: 31 Aug 2014
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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 5:48 am Reply with quote
Animegomaniac wrote:
Dubs are cheaper than ever these days, especially considering the fact that anyone with a decent computer set up has a recording studio and the speed of broadband internet makes compiling such distant sources a breeze. My own answer would be a combination of laziness and lack of sound effects/music tracks on non digital productions.
These studios don't have a decent computer though, they have expensive recording studios. The quality of home recording equipment I'm sure is pretty good, but it is not as good as a professional studio which still costs a lot of money.
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XOtaku90



Joined: 18 May 2017
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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 9:03 am Reply with quote
New dubs for old anime like Record of Lodoss War and Kaiji would be so cool. The Macross dub from ADV was very nice too and I love Robotech since I was 5.
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I_Drive_DSM



Joined: 11 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 9:16 am Reply with quote
I actually work in an industry (a historical archive) that deals with situational aspects such as those presented by say "M&E"s. I can tell you that in relative theory & with the modern technology you would assume that it's relatively easy to handle, but in actual practice it's tremendously time & work consuming.

The initial first hurdle - as someone early point out that experienced these issues - is even if you have separate recordings they've likely deteriorated to a point where obtaining a "clean" copy of the material in a digital form is impossible. Even then if you do manage to get a clean copy, it has likely stretched and de-sync'ed itself to the point of requiring a lot of work. And it's not simply bringing it into something like Final Cut and creating say fifty to a hundred cuts and toying with duration; you're looking at more like well into the thousands for a thirty minute to an hour track and daunting work-hours getting something to even sound and sync remotely right. It would be a nightmare.

The bigger issue that will become even more apparent is the general shift to various formats in say the period from 1990 to 15 years onward when digital storage of video really began to take hold. For those that did have the resources to move into a digital or alternative format, it was likely done to either sub-par standards or standards of the time. It's one thing to work with a well preserved stored copy of say something on reel-to-reel, but it's something very different when working with a recording that has say been compressed by a codec.

One even bigger issue that I think may be overlooked entirely and relating to the anime realm is very early hentai. If you were watching them in the days of VHS subtitled productions from say ADV's SoftCel productions, you likely remember that most of these were only available through subtitled productions. Subtitles during that time were often "hard encoded" directly into the footage. Since many of the animation companies have changed hands and, more than likely, folded during the time since then I would imagine there is an inconceivable amount of early hentai "history" prior to the DVD and digital age lost, and may never be properly recovered.

/A final note/ - If you want a really good example of a period lack of M&E in anime check out the original AnimEigo release of Riding Bean. Watch the original Japanese audio version and then watch the English dub (you can find both on YouTube). The later car chase scene is one of the more prominent points of difference where for the English track many generic sound effects had to be used and they often do not sync properly.
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leafy sea dragon



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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 11:53 am Reply with quote
I_Drive_DSM wrote:

The initial first hurdle - as someone early point out that experienced these issues - is even if you have separate recordings they've likely deteriorated to a point where obtaining a "clean" copy of the material in a digital form is impossible. Even then if you do manage to get a clean copy, it has likely stretched and de-sync'ed itself to the point of requiring a lot of work. And it's not simply bringing it into something like Final Cut and creating say fifty to a hundred cuts and toying with duration; you're looking at more like well into the thousands for a thirty minute to an hour track and daunting work-hours getting something to even sound and sync remotely right. It would be a nightmare.


Is there an example of this warped audio anywhere? I learned about how these old reels would deteriorate like that, but I have never actually heard its effects.
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Paiprince



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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 12:21 pm Reply with quote
Animegomaniac wrote:
DmonHiro wrote:
I'm going to go with "Because it wouldn't make much/any money." as my final answer, Alex.


The elephant in the room: Why didn't Nichijou get a dub while Gosick did? Better yet, what's will Funimation's practice of dubbing shows that aren't even complete yet over shows that have a fan base?

Did they make back their costs on First Love Monster yet? Will they?

Dubs are cheaper than ever these days, especially considering the fact that anyone with a decent computer set up has a recording studio and the speed of broadband internet makes compiling such distant sources a breeze. My own answer would be a combination of laziness and lack of sound effects/music tracks on non digital productions.

You can work out which applies where yourself. Eventually the idea of simulcast will lose the allure as not only more and more mediocrity gets produced and licensed but also dubbed. So it's only a matter of time until this anime bubble bursts... this time through lack of quality content being produced instead of paying too much for licenses.

Unless you can honestly hype yourself up for that 10 episode adaptation of whatever Light Novel or App game is popular in Japan at the time.


You really didn't make yourself subtle veering yourself to off topic realm.
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mangamuscle



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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 1:06 pm Reply with quote
DmonHiro wrote:
I'm going to go with "Because it wouldn't make much/any money." as my final answer, Alex.


Oh, yeah, money, money, my middle school class literally had to dance to that song.

Here is an idea for Justin. There must be lots of old anime movies you would like to have a english dub so it can be easily shown to the children of older anime fans. You must know at least one anime engineer that is also a fan. Go get some beers and chose one title. You can manage the rights part and your friend could do the audio. I am not saying you should invest one penny of your money, that is what kickstarter is for nowadays.

It would be a sh*t load of work and the only reimbursement (if successful) would be the satisfaction that you have helped spread the fandom where no one had before, it would be akin to the "good old days" of fan subbing.

Who knows, if such a project becomes successful maybe, just maybe, other people with expertise will jump into the bandwagon. The advantage of all this is that it is clear to see what animes had aged gracefully. Who knows, maybe netflix or hulu will eventually buy said dub making the selected title easy to understand to the public at large.
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HeeroTX



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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 1:29 pm Reply with quote
jr240483 wrote:
hell none of the old school gundam titles like turn a , double zeta and victory got dub releases, but unlike macross and seiya, those series would definitely had done well.

Sorry, but.. Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing

Gundam (ESPECIALLY "older" pre-GWing Gundam) is a notorious poor seller. (anime, not toys) If older Gundam sold well then Bandai USA would still be a thing. Wasn't Vitory considered one of the "meh" Gundam shows anyway? (I know X was) and Double Zeta was just mentioned in the "Jump the Shark" thread as someone's opinion of trash.

EDIT: The biggest issue with dubs for Macross and Seiya is that they had existing (heavily edited I think, definitely for Macross, not sure with Seiya) dubs that would've taken a big chunk of the core "dub" audience. (ie. a bunch of people that might've needed a dub to buy Macross were fine with Robotech)
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DerekL1963
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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 3:16 pm Reply with quote
Animegomaniac wrote:
Dubs are cheaper than ever these days


Not for professional grade dubbing with actual production staff and voice actors, all of whom expect to be paid for their work.

Quote:
especially considering the fact that anyone with a decent computer set up has a recording studio and the speed of broadband internet makes compiling such distant sources a breeze.


And generally that a dub or voice track was made by 'anyone' is immediately and instantly apparent on hearing it. Generally, that's because a studio is much more than a PC - the quality of the microphones matter, as does muting or eliminating background, etc... etc... Nor is the problem one of compilation, it's one of obtaining quality inputs. (Particularly of the voice actors, where timing, appropriate emotions, etc... etc... are hugely important.)

Which isn't to say that amateurs can't do good work (especially if they have access to pro grade equipment), only that such amateurs don't fall into the category of "anyone". They're a minority.

Quote:
My own answer would be a combination of laziness and lack of sound effects/music tracks on non digital productions.


My answer would be that, like most amateurs in any field, you seriously don't understand what goes into professional grade production (of practically anything). Equipment, skill, experience, all of these things matter and they can't simply be replaced with a commodity PC, consumer grade equipment, and sheer enthusiasm.

I face this problem all the time with my photography... Even at my level (dedicated hobbyist with low grade consumer gear), the work I produce is as much a product of years of experience and skill building as anything else. It's not something just "anyone" can walk up and replicate, even with much higher grade equipment.
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Sakagami Tomoyo



Joined: 06 Dec 2008
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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 4:18 am Reply with quote
JoeOfTomorrow wrote:
Sorry if it sounded like I was criticizing the companies for being 'lazy' or 'cheap', but I was just saying it's not impossible on a technical level to redub old non-action or fantasy oriented anime, mainly slice of life and romcoms, even with decayed audio or lost M&E tracks.

Of course it's not impossible on a technical level. Relatively little of what we want is actually impossible on a technical level. It's just other things getting in the way, like expense, availability of necessary resources, people being willing and able to do the necessary work, legality, morality, ethics, etc.
Animegomaniac wrote:
The elephant in the room: Why didn't Nichijou get a dub while Gosick did?

This comes back to "how many discs they expect to sell". A mystery-drama with a historical European setting has wider appeal than the kind of heavily Japanese-flavoured absurdist humour that Nichijou is.
mangamuscle wrote:
Here is an idea for Justin. There must be lots of old anime movies you would like to have a english dub so it can be easily shown to the children of older anime fans. You must know at least one anime engineer that is also a fan. Go get some beers and chose one title. You can manage the rights part and your friend could do the audio. I am not saying you should invest one penny of your money, that is what kickstarter is for nowadays.

It would be a sh*t load of work and the only reimbursement (if successful) would be the satisfaction that you have helped spread the fandom where no one had before, it would be akin to the "good old days" of fan subbing.

Who knows, if such a project becomes successful maybe, just maybe, other people with expertise will jump into the bandwagon. The advantage of all this is that it is clear to see what animes had aged gracefully. Who knows, maybe netflix or hulu will eventually buy said dub making the selected title easy to understand to the public at large.

Here's a better idea: why don't you do it instead of volunteering someone else for such a task?

Fandubbing has been done before, and back in the days before everyone had a desktop PC capable of doing everything. It never really caught on, because it's orders of magnitude more effort than subtitling, relies heavily on the acting skills of a bunch of amateurs, and has relatively little fan demand/interest. All of that still holds true today; a lower technical/equipment barrier to entry doesn't help any.
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mangamuscle



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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 12:39 pm Reply with quote
Sakagami Tomoyo wrote:
Here's a better idea: why don't you do it instead of volunteering someone else for such a task?


The answer is quite elemental. Kickstarter is a system where you use your reputation to get money to fund a project. I lack any reputation that would make people say "hey, here are 50 bucks because *goggles name* I think he can deliver". Also, I lack the contacts to negotiate for the intellectual property rights. Last but not least, I am not an insider, lack the knowledge of the inner workings of the industry and even if I somehow got the money and correct address book, executives do not like to lose their time teaching the ropes to a newbie.

Quote:
... relies heavily on the acting skills of a bunch of amateurs


I never said anything about using amateurs. The reason for using kickstarter is to pay for the IP rights and the english dubbing. The idea that this is similar to fansubbing is because Justin and the audio engineer would work for the love of the project (at least initially, if it results wildly successful maybe they might also get (partially) paid.

Now you are going to ask "Why do you care if you are not interested in anime english dubs?" and like the villain I am I will answer *twirls mustache* If the original audio track is recovered, then there is a chance that said anime (movie) can also be dubbed to other languages. Hey, if the projects entails a Blu-ray disc, region A already covers lattin america and doing a dub in spanish is way cheaper than an english dub (and we have a bigger dubbing industry even though our economy is smaller than the USA).We are not a first world region, but we have a huge population that has been exposed to anime for longer periods of time.

Of course, Justin might simply not be interested, like many people that back in the day were in anime but were not interested in getting some subtitling done themselves even though they had the means and the expertise, we are all masters of our free time.
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leafy sea dragon



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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 2:24 pm Reply with quote
mangamuscle wrote:
The answer is quite elemental. Kickstarter is a system where you use your reputation to get money to fund a project. I lack any reputation that would make people say "hey, here are 50 bucks because *goggles name* I think he can deliver". Also, I lack the contacts to negotiate for the intellectual property rights. Last but not least, I am not an insider, lack the knowledge of the inner workings of the industry and even if I somehow got the money and correct address book, executives do not like to lose their time teaching the ropes to a newbie.


I don't know how serious you are about this, as there seems to be a sarcastic tone in it all, but Kickstarter is a platform with the intention of allowing unproven talent to be given the funding they need to start a business, hence its name. It's not supposed to be based on the creator's reputation, but the trust in the creator to deliver something that will satisfy the backers. There are definitely some big names who have launched crowdfunding campaigns, but their reputation is what provides the trust to the backers. In other words, you're mistaking a means with an end.

My family has a few devices, appliances, and games (and a documentary film) around our house that got started through crowdfunding. The only one that had a big name attached to it is Mighty No. 9, which was easily the lowest-quality crowdfunded good that we have.

You CAN start a crowdfunding campaign, and if you can convince people in your video that whatever you intend to make will be something they want to have (and prove that you can make it in the first place), you stand a good chance of reaching your goal. Famous people are not the only ones who can reach their goal.
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SillyPerson



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PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2017 4:49 am Reply with quote
Yeah well, I would still like English dubs for all of Urusei Yatsura as well as Legend of the Galactic Heroes among others. Maybe someday, someone will do that. Supposedly it is not profitable, but what if, as with abridged series on YouTube and fan translations, people volunteered their services for free? I think plenty of YouTubers and fan translators who currently subtitle things instead of dubbing them, together, have the talent as well as the free time to do fan dubs. If they got together with the actual companies that professionally do subs and dubs that are licensed, ones that own the exclusive distribution rights but only have certain shows subbed and not dubbed, and offer to dub them on the cheap for a mutually profitable relationship which would also raise extra funds via things like Kickstarter, people could find a way to make the unprofitable profitable.

It's only currently unprofitable because people haven't been creative enough in thinking up ways to make it profitable. Obviously the traditional business model for anime distribution would have to be completely changed since it fails to be profitable in cases like this. Low-cost digital distribution networks, such as the various subscription streaming services, are one possible solution to the problem that not many people are likely to buy DVDs or BluRay disks of old series dubbed in English. Another important part would be paying voice actors on commission/royalties based on a percentage of profits/sales, rather than fixed salaries or wages. A-list professional voice actors would definitely not be used, instead, people who are good enough and willing to work on commission... who one would find by looking at who has worked on stuff like abridged series on YouTube. This would all be done in collaboration with the American companies that own the North American distribution rights to the anime and currently only offer it subtitled, not dubbed, as an experimental new type of venture to expand into a new market niche that was previously unprofitable but will now be profitable because of creative new business models that rely on absolutely minimizing costs and bringing costs as close to zero as possible, modeled after the business models of people who make money by posting YouTube videos except more profitable since it would be streamed on sites like Netflix and Hulu instead.
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