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Harleyquin



Joined: 29 May 2014
Posts: 1328
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:24 am Reply with quote
Vaisaga wrote:
Hassan was a heroic figure, though. Kill the corrupt kind of guy.

"Anti-hero" servants like Medusa and Medea normally can't be summoned. The grail's corruption is what made that possible.


The very fact there's an Assassin class of Servant seems to suggest moral codes for heroic servants aren't strictly cut and dried.

The leader of the Hashashin guild made his name during the Crusades and was more than happy to take out fellow believers if the price was right. The list of targets of the faction is varied and certainly ISN'T limited to "corrupt" individuals. I fail to see how the famous founder of the faction isn't less "evil" than the servants of the 4th and 5th War following the original timeline who were supposedly "ineligible" for a Grail War.
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Vaisaga



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:38 am Reply with quote
Hey man, this is openly stated canonical fact, not something I'm making up.
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Harleyquin



Joined: 29 May 2014
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:56 am Reply with quote
Vaisaga wrote:
Hey man, this is openly stated canonical fact, not something I'm making up.


Based on what you read up on a translated wiki/game or what you read in the original language?

There is nothing to suggest "evil" servants can't be summoned provided the catalyst in question is closely linked to the target servant. Why do you think the Traitor Knight Mordred was summoned when Shishigou was given a piece of the Round Table as a catalyst?

JP wikipedia page doesn't list any restriction on servant morality regarding the summons. Assassin servants have been in this competition from the very beginning and the very concept of "assassination" to achieve the goal doesn't exactly suggest the servant in question is going to act in a "heroic" manner.

It's been too long since I finished the original game (twice) so my memory isn't rock solid on the text (played too much of Ataraxia and remember the details there much clearer). I don't remember any mention of Servant morality restrictions on the third route and certainly don't see why the Servant who instigated the supposed "restriction" in the first place could be summoned if the Grail forbade it (even with the Einzberns as co-creators there's only so much one can game the system).
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Vaisaga



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:34 am Reply with quote
That servant in question actually does ironically qualify as a hero due to his effect on the people.

Mordred also has plenty of heroic deeds under her belt. As does the Hassans. But people like Gilles, Medusa, and Jack are only known as monsters and murderers, not heroes (well Gilles as a Saber might count).
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Harleyquin



Joined: 29 May 2014
Posts: 1328
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 12:08 pm Reply with quote
Vaisaga wrote:
That servant in question actually does ironically qualify as a hero due to his effect on the people.

Mordred also has plenty of heroic deeds under her belt. As does the Hassans. But people like Gilles, Medusa, and Jack are only known as monsters and murderers, not heroes (well Gilles as a Saber might count).


Medea is allowed as a summon provided the magician has something with a strong connection to the crew of the Argonauts. Yet according to your definition she's not a valid summon unless the Grail was corrupted.

Medusa seems more like a victim than anything else, which would place her in a similar situation to the Black faction Berserker in this adaptation. No issues with Frankie coming into play regardless for Apocrypha.

As for Jack the Ripper, viewers have had zero insight into her true identity and her motivations in the first half of this series. I wouldn't be surprised if something is being withheld as to this servant's true identity in the second half of the season.

One would think that if this writer had gone completely off-field with the rules of the game, Type Moon would have stepped in and asked for a rewrite for the Grand Order storyline (same author after all). Yet the servants in Grand Order from what I've read are more or less consistent with what is presented in Apocrypha, so there seems to be no issue from the original writer. Furthermore, one would think the hardcore Japanese fans would have a say if the rules they are most familiar with were being bent out of shape by the Apocrypha author yet most of them are happily playing Grand Order without raising a fuss about the supposed plot holes.
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Vaisaga



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 12:50 pm Reply with quote
Grand Order uses a completely different grail system than the Fuyuki one. So there's no problem with it having a different set of rules.
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Spotlesseden



Joined: 09 Sep 2004
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Location: earth
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:05 pm Reply with quote
Vaisaga wrote:
Hassan was a heroic figure, though. Kill the corrupt kind of guy.

"Anti-hero" servants like Medusa and Medea normally can't be summoned. The grail's corruption is what made that possible.


They never said that in this series. This is completely different the fsn world.
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Vaisaga



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:26 pm Reply with quote
It's the same world, just a different route.

But elsewhere some one said the reason is because Darnic messed around with the grail, which is a reason I can easily accept.
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Harleyquin



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 11:35 am Reply with quote
#12.5

Anyone who's watched episodes 1-12 will miss nothing new in terms of plot after watching the recap episode. What's notable are the two announcements made during the episode:

1. First season is coming out in a consolidated Blu-Ray package at the end of this year.
2. Second season starts next week. No break in broadcast. Same rules probably apply to the first season with regards to rights.

Standard approach to the recap episode and it neatly summarises the two main story threads that have featured prominently in the series thus far.
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Harleyquin



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 11:36 am Reply with quote
#13

This is the last "quiet" week before the shows in the next quarter start to air, so this series might need to work a bit harder if it wants to retain eyeball share against a very packed Saturday lineup for the next 3 months.

The 1st OP has the more memorable song, but LiSA did the 2nd OP for Fate/Zero and she's a quality singer in her own right. I'll need a few weeks to see if this new song will grow on me. As for the ED, this quarter has the better visuals but arguably a less remarkable song.

Plot-wise, the original structure for this Grail War has gone completely off the rails by the end of this episode. If Ruler wants to stop Amakusa Shirou Tokisada from having his way, she more or less needs to work with the remnants of the Black faction who are now heavily outgunned and outnumbered. Now that the Reds have accomplished what they set out to do over the last few episodes, they'll probably sit tight and let Amakusa do what he wants with the Great Grail.

I wonder where Jack has disappeared to. She's a free agent under a Master who's more or less catering to her every whim yet has no desire to fight for the Grail. To date all she's done is look for mages to dissect. The Black faction are earth-bound so she'll probably target them next so she'll either need to be co-opted to the anti-Amakusa faction or disposed with before she can deal even more damage.
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Vaisaga



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:20 pm Reply with quote
Oh hey there Mordred. Good job making me forget how I was mad at you a few episodes ago.

They're clearly pushing Seig/Jeanne but Seig/Astolfo is obviously superior.

The faction shake up is certainly interesting, though now that all the bad people on the black side have been eliminated now more than ever they're the side to root for.
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Harleyquin



Joined: 29 May 2014
Posts: 1328
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:08 pm Reply with quote
Vaisaga wrote:
Oh hey there Mordred. Good job making me forget how I was mad at you a few episodes ago.


Perfectly rational reason for Mordred to intervene. If my theory is right, she will definitely NOT expect to see Astolfo as Sieg's servant if they meet in the future.

1. Mordred and Master do not yet know of Amakusa's plot.
2. One of the Black Masters has now appeared in the battlefield and is acting in a matter completely contrary to what is expected of Masters with their servants.
3. Killing a Master usually kills the attendant servant since the mana supply is cut off permanently. Since the two camps are still at war as far as Red Saber and Master are concerned, this is the easiest and most cost-effective solution advantageous to their cause.
4. Mordred is aware that the kill command from a Seal is usually absolute and lasts for some time. Since she left almost immediately after the kill, she probably expects Black Rider to either finish the command or expire due to lack of mana. Either way, Mordred ends up with fewer adversaries to contend with in the future. The throw-away comment "邪魔したな" reflects this implication.

There's absolutely nothing "noble" about Mordred's actions. If anything Mordred was telling the truth when she finished the decapitation since she's not fond of overtly noisy females.
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Vaisaga



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:20 pm Reply with quote
It was clearly a case of Mordred respecting Seig's resolve during their fight (apparent from her using his chosen name) and helping them because of it. She's still a knight who values honor.
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Harleyquin



Joined: 29 May 2014
Posts: 1328
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:05 am Reply with quote
Vaisaga wrote:
It was clearly a case of Mordred respecting Seig's resolve during their fight (apparent from her using his chosen name) and helping them because of it. She's still a knight who values honor.


She acknowledged him in the earlier fight, that's true. But she still has a War to fight and win and Black Rider and Master are a stepping stone towards that victory. If it meant saving Sieg as an unexpected bonus, it won't change the reality of the hostile faction losing another servant and master at the end of the exchange as a result of her prioritising that master's decapitation. Sieg just happened to be in the way but wasn't judged as a threat.
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Vaisaga



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:23 am Reply with quote
Not sure why you're so resistant to the idea that Mordred simply performed an act of kindness. Her sheepish "sorry for interrupting" and the grin on Voltron's face says a lot.

As gruff as she is externally she's still a good kid.
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