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Harleyquin



Joined: 29 May 2014
Posts: 1324
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 11:10 am Reply with quote
Vaisaga wrote:
Not sure why you're so resistant to the idea that Mordred simply performed an act of kindness. Her sheepish "sorry for interrupting" and the grin on Voltron's face says a lot.

As gruff as she is externally she's still a good kid.


Because I've seen enough of Mordred to know she's not capable of kindness in this environment. She is not known as the "Traitor Knight" for nothing. I'm not doe-eyed to regard any of the servants bar Ruler as capable of compassion when they have a job to do.

Like I said in the earlier post, my theory will be proven right by a considerable degree if Mordred and Sieg meet again and the former realises Black Rider is now a servant to the latter.
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Vaisaga



Joined: 07 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 12:31 pm Reply with quote
She became the "traitor knight" because daddy didn't love her, not because she's inherently evil.

Seig was an enemy she just had a battle to the death with. Why step in at all? Rider would kill Seig then his master since she'd have no command seals left. Mordred need not sully her sword at all. But by stepping in she saves Seig and allows Rider to disappear with a clear conscience. Her being surprised won't be indicative of much since she had no way of knowing Seig became a master.

Besides, spoiler[Mordred is also a homunculus so she has a degree of sympathy and kinship for Seig. ]
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Harleyquin



Joined: 29 May 2014
Posts: 1324
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 12:55 pm Reply with quote
Vaisaga wrote:


Seig was an enemy she just had a battle to the death with. Why step in at all? Rider would kill Seig then his master since she'd have no command seals left. Mordred need not sully her sword at all. But by stepping in she saves Seig and allows Rider to disappear with a clear conscience. Her being surprised won't be indicative of much since she had no way of knowing Seig became a master.


Mordred was already in place just before the third command seal was about to be used. Timing is off for Mordred to take the course of action you advised, so my conclusion is that the head was going to come off anyway since an enemy Master playing around with a servant with no regard for the surroundings is a perfect target. Mordred and Shishigou know this, viewers with vested emotional attachments to certain characters are the only ones who would think otherwise.

If I recall, Mordred has absolutely no respect for Astolfo as an opponent or as a Knight based on the battle they had prior to Sieg's intervention. There is zero reason for Mordred to allow Rider to "disappear with a clear conscience" since the former doesn't even regard the latter as worthy of such consideration to begin with. Even the final throwaway comment which you've attached such meaning to doesn't mean anything since Shishigou ordered Mordred to do the deed as I'd explained earlier. You'd have to be a complete idiot not to take advantage of the golden opportunity dangling in front of you and Shishigou has no qualms taking out Masters of the opposing faction by whatever means necessary.
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killjoy_the



Joined: 30 May 2015
Posts: 1549
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 9:16 pm Reply with quote
Boy am I glad Rider's Master is dead. She was just incredibly annoying. Her archetype never felt anything but annoying though I think the anime might've tried making her either sexy (it tried in that one scene where she's torturing Astolfo, but other than the blush on her face we don't get much), scary (the framing of her psycho-smiles were just too nonchalant for that) nor even comical. So she ends up being just a loud, annoying person. I don't like you, Mordred, but thanks.

Now that I've vented, the episode.

Can't Shiro just like, use his Command Seals to get almost everybody on his side or just plain kill 'em? I mean, I get that there needs to be a story here, and historically speaking only Lancers can suicide by their Master's hand, but come on.
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Vaisaga



Joined: 07 Oct 2011
Posts: 12354
Location: Windsor Ontario
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 9:44 pm Reply with quote
killjoy_the wrote:
Can't Shiro just like, use his Command Seals to get almost everybody on his side or just plain kill 'em? I mean, I get that there needs to be a story here, and historically speaking only Lancers can suicide by their Master's hand, but come on.


Well he doesn't want to just kill them if they could be potentially on his side. Plus, the thing with using command seals to force obedience is that you need to keep using command seals to force obedience. What happens when you run out?
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Harleyquin



Joined: 29 May 2014
Posts: 1324
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 9:50 pm Reply with quote
Vaisaga wrote:


Well he doesn't want to just kill them if they could be potentially on his side. Plus, the thing with using command seals to force obedience is that you need to keep using command seals to force obedience. What happens when you run out?


Not sure why that was even worth a reply since Amakusa had already done everything he could do with regard to the red servants. He's lost his mandate as a Ruler servant (but keeps his power and abilities as an individual combatant) and has already done what he can subverting Servants from the black faction.
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killjoy_the



Joined: 30 May 2015
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:11 am Reply with quote
Yeah he asked nicely, ignored attempts at taking his life and then tried to kill Jeanne.
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Harleyquin



Joined: 29 May 2014
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:22 am Reply with quote
killjoy_the wrote:
Yeah he asked nicely, ignored attempts at taking his life and then tried to kill Jeanne.


So it was a rhetorical question you were asking? Didn't realise it after the initial rant. Shouldn't have replied to it had I known the second part of the post was superfluous.
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killjoy_the



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:24 am Reply with quote
I just wanted to make the Lancer joke, honestly.
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Harleyquin



Joined: 29 May 2014
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 11:29 am Reply with quote
#14

The whole episode is built around Avicebron's desire in participating in this Great War with most of the episode devoted to his final trump card and the effort required to stop it. Very impressive action as always, but that took everything the Black faction had plus help from Red Saber.

As for the argument raging around Red Saber's actions last week, I read two conclusions based on the opening scene. The first is in line with what the devoted Mordred fan has been railing about for much of the last page, the second is Red Saber disobeying Shishigou's orders (why talk about letting Astolfo live otherwise?) but being let off the hook by an indulgent Master. After this week's episode, it should be no surprise to Red Saber what Sieg's new role is but I didn't get a read on any reaction to a homunculus who is both a Master in the War and capable of using Command Seals to transform into Hero Siegfried for a limited period of time.

If there's anything I took away from this episode, it was Shishigou's final comment to Mordred about how everyone is participating in this War because they have something they want fulfilled. If it means forging temporary truces with hitherto erstwhile enemies to keep the dream alive, then all remaining participants will do whatever's necessary to survive and wait for the chance to end the War on the best terms possible.
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Vaisaga



Joined: 07 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:51 pm Reply with quote
Harleyquin wrote:
As for the argument raging around Red Saber's actions last week, I read two conclusions based on the opening scene. The first is in line with what the devoted Mordred fan has been railing about for much of the last page,


Being pretty hyperbolic there, aren't you?

The point is that Mordred acted because she wanted to. She knew full well killing Rider was the better option but she didn't take it. She performed a good deed for the sake of it.

Anyways, it was cool to see everyone working together like that.
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Harleyquin



Joined: 29 May 2014
Posts: 1324
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:42 pm Reply with quote
Vaisaga wrote:


Being pretty hyperbolic there, aren't you?

The point is that Mordred acted because she wanted to. She knew full well killing Rider was the better option but she didn't take it. She performed a good deed for the sake of it.

Anyways, it was cool to see everyone working together like that.


She also regretted it afterwards. Good to see cold logic hasn't completely taken a back seat to emotional impulse.

The 1st OP theme song put it best (the opening line). Shishirou is also indulgent as he knows everyone in this War is in it to win and to obtain something they REALLY want. This of course ties in with Sieg's monologue at the very start of the series; it's not about heroes or masters but rather on wishes and desires.
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Vaisaga



Joined: 07 Oct 2011
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Location: Windsor Ontario
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:14 pm Reply with quote
Harleyquin wrote:
She also regretted it afterwards. Good to see cold logic hasn't completely taken a back seat to emotional impulse.


When has Mordred ever struck you as a cold and logical person? She's very hot headed, impulsive and prone to emotional outbursts.

Voltron is a chill guy in general. He just found if amusing how tsundere she was being. Plus he likely figured they'd be allying soon enough.

I know Nasuverse mages are supposedly emotionally detached and logical but the joke has always been that they aren't. And those who do act solely on reason (Arturia, Kiritsugu, Shiro) all meet bad ends.
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Harleyquin



Joined: 29 May 2014
Posts: 1324
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:50 pm Reply with quote
Vaisaga wrote:
Harleyquin wrote:
She also regretted it afterwards. Good to see cold logic hasn't completely taken a back seat to emotional impulse.


When has Mordred ever struck you as a cold and logical person? She's very hot headed, impulsive and prone to emotional outbursts.

Voltron is a chill guy in general. He just found if amusing how tsundere she was being. Plus he likely figured they'd be allying soon enough.

I know Nasuverse mages are supposedly emotionally detached and logical but the joke has always been that they aren't.


She isn't. But unlike some people I don't see two extremes between human machines and emotional babies with no room in between. Mordred understands the value of killing a servant who is absolutely worthless yet as "graciously" pointed out also understands that her decision not to do so (regardless of motive) was certainly not the best way forward.

Voltron? Don't know anyone by that name in this series nor am I sure why it's been used at least twice in this thread. Shishigou as I've mentioned previously is rather indulgent towards his servant unlike other Masters because he's seen it as the best way to manage his Servant.

Never met Bazett, have you? Matou Kiriya doesn't strike me as emotionally detached given his reason for participating in his War. Neither of the Masters for the Caster Servants in the original work and Urobouchi's officially sanctioned prequel strike me as the epitome of cold calculation.
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Vaisaga



Joined: 07 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:04 am Reply with quote
Harleyquin wrote:
But unlike some people I don't see two extremes between human machines and emotional babies with no room in between.


Uh, you're the one who was vehemently denying that Mordred was acting on any sort of emotion. And when I had an emotional response to something you're the one who was trying to convince me with logic that I shouldn't feel that way. I've read your posts carefully and I've seen no allowance for emotions to be factored in. You've been quite dismissive of people with "vested emotional attachments to certain characters" as well.

That Mordred admits she shouldn't have done what she did proves that emotion trumps logic.

Harleyquin wrote:
Voltron? Don't know anyone by that name in this series nor am I sure why it's been used at least twice in this thread.


If you've been paying attention you'd see that I've been calling Shishigou that this entire time. That kid from Strange Fake called him "Go Lion" in the first episode. Go Lion is an old anime about 5 robot lions who combine into a giant robot. It was localized in America as Voltron.

Harleyquin wrote:
Never met Bazett, have you? Matou Kiriya doesn't strike me as emotionally detached given his reason for participating in his War. Neither of the Masters for the Caster Servants in the original work and Urobouchi's officially sanctioned prequel strike me as the epitome of cold calculation.


Kariya is a failure as a mage and thus a bad example. But no, I was talking about how in-universe the mage community as a whole see themselves that way. A mage is supposed to be dedicated to their specific magecraft, doing whatever means necessary to advance it and pass it on to the next generation so that they may eventually reach the root. All their actions are supposed to be the logical steps to that end no matter how terrible. Marriage isn't about love, but creating an heir. Raising an heir is all about continuing their magecraft research, etc.

But again, the joke is that even the most stick up their ass mages constantly fail to live up to that ideal image of a mage.
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