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Unless and until there is a change in the current scheme of things, this will always be a highly nebulous contention. Netflix doesn't give out viewership numbers, so we will never know for sure how many people watch a given show. Because they are buying up mostly one-offs (i.e., anime that are one and done, not setup to come back with new seasons later) we won't likely ever know if for instance a show actually bombed after release. We don't get to see any sort of progression or reaction in-line with the progression of the series, outside of anecdotes.

In essence, the only view of an anime's success we get is a general assurance from Netflix that they've done well. But we as a public have no metric by which to judge that,no context to put it in, so people will be apt to bicker back and forth over whether or not the current model is the best or not. Fate/Apocrypha by its pedigree should be one of if not the most watched anime of whatever season it airs during. But we've no idea if that will be the case because we can't look to a Crunchyroll and eke out viewership/review numbers. But, you then can argue, how much attention is actually paid to such things? Everyone tends to focus more on Blu-Ray/DVD sales, not viewership numbers while a show is airing.

In the end, we have to assume that natural demand forces would reign. If the Netflix model doesn't work, production committees are going to stop selling their series to Netflix or start charging them more (again, we won't know the latter part thanks to Netflix's policies). I, for one, continue to believe the Netflix model does more to hurt than help a given series. The ONLY reason I know LWA is on Netflix is because I've actively been paying attention. Netflix did not provide me a single notification about it aside from it popping up on the list of "popular" shows - a list that basically has every other anime or anime adjacent show they have on it. The last active notice they sent me was a recommendation to watch Bleach... so no, I don't have any faith in the ability of Netflix to appropriately market anime.

Panoptican wrote:

samuelp wrote:

But that doesn't explain why Netflix simulcasts anime in Japan.

It has a ton of series streaming weekly this season even. So why is it simulcast locally but binge in the US?

I think the answer was pretty much stated in the article, dubbing. A Japanese simulcast is fine because it is in Japanese. For everywhere else, Netflix isn't in the business of simuldubbing and I doubt they ever will be. Not to mention it would be a much more difficult process compared to Funi since they dub in multiple languages (LWA has four dubs).

So what's the problem with doing subs first and then dubs later? For a Netflix Original (which these anime are considered to be) I bet Netflix does not want to put out what might be considered an incomplete product. They probably want to cultivate the image of Netflix Original anime being a place for the more infrequent, casual anime viewers to get their anime fix. That means they need dubs. When one of those viewers goes to watch something and there isn't a dub in their language they will click away and may never come back. That is not a look Netflix wants.

Btw, I definitely would prefer a simulcast structure on Netflix, but I understand why they don't do it. It sucks, but I just don't see them changing.

This is not always true, Netflix released each cour of Kuromukuro a few weeks after they aired in Japan, and each cour was sub only, the dub came out like 6 months later. Also, Ajin, and I believe Knights of Sidonia were dubbed on Netflix a week after they finished airing in Japan. Blame! was dubbed on Netflix the same day as Japanese theaters.

While I can understand Netflix's business model and how it operates for them. I can definitely do without the condescension towards fans who are not fond of the way that Netflix handles their operation.

Anime simulcasting has become the go-to format for the medium in the West since around 2010/2011 (mostly around the time Crunchyroll became a legitimate site, rather than a fansub site), so calling fans who believe that's how a show like Fate/Apocrypha should be handled "entitled" is quite demeaning when it is the standard format that all of the other services have latched onto (including Amazon and their Prime/Strike combo).

That said, hopefully this works out for Netflix. Both Fate/Apocrypha and Kakegurui have very strong source materials, so they should be great series overall. While as a fan who was eagerly anticipating both to watch over the summer, and is quite disappointed in this turn of events, I hope that this brings in more viewers like Netflix desires.

Netflix is unfortunately not changing their model anytime soon, since Kakegurui and Fate/Apocrypha are not on their U.S. site yet, and Children of the Whales won't be available until 2018. Luckily Godzilla Monster Planet should be released the same day as Japan.

Lol anti-piracy ye sure how about focus on making sure that every fan can watch the anime they want not being slapped and blocked by the stupid region blocks because until they dont remove this shit people will go around and pirate anime including myself because i have 0 intention on paying somethin when ill only be able watch half the shows available on that site....

Trying to imagine Yuri on Ice being released under this model and can't imagine the hype would have been anything close. That was a real fun experience as an anime fan, man. My problem being that they didn't have a lot of official merchandise ready to meet the demand at first, but have since had to opportunity to pick up the calendar and various posters. You think more people would be trying to capitalize on that social media buzz but nooooo.

Some stand up comedian has a joke about watching a movie long after it's released and it being too awkward to bring up at work like "hey guys, I wanna share my thoughts on the movie Speed."

brynhild wrote:

Idk man, its not hard to simply add a series to your currently watching list and give it a 1 or a 10 without actually checking it out yet. Which people do. For some god forsaken reason.

MAL is just a joke really when it comes to ratings and reviews.

Oh I totally agree that MAL is a joke, I was just using it as anecdotal evidence since it's an actual legitimate site. However It doesn't take a rocket scientist to go to the most popular illegal streaming site and see that Fate/Apocrypha has 160,000 views on it's first episode which was released TODAY... If you are a company that is knowingly snubbing over 160,000 people just out of pig-headedness, you are bad at doing business for that market. Period.

Wyvern wrote:

Incidentally, I've seen a lot of positive hype for LWA in the last week or so, because the series finale seems to have been very well received and drove up interest in the show all over again. And then a few days after it airs, the show pops up on Netflix. That's good timing. Though I don't think Netflix can count on that happening with every series, it worked for them in this case.

I think it bears asking where this hype came from. You may be fluent in Japanese and active in Japanese social media or else living in Japan, or was it on recommendation from people who were pirating it?

I now know what it feels like to be the guy buying anime on VHS seeing kids cry about the episode count on DVD singles.

Sad

Nine fan sub groups (each in different languages) have decided to pick up Fate/Apocrypha. One of those groups came back from the dead after at least two years of inactivity. Oddly enough I found 14 groups for Kakegurui. Sub groups seem to crop up in greater frequency when Netflix declares that they have acquired the rights to a show. In Netflix's defense, there are still fan sub groups that crop around shows that are simulcast through out the season but for the last couple of years, those groups started dying off. No one's really surprised at this point, and Netflix won't change their ways anytime soon. I hope they like seeing more traffic going torrent sites cause that is what's going to happen.

Yttrbio wrote:

Unfortunately, the way Netflix hands out information (i.e. it doesn't) means we'll never really know how things pan out. I personally have a hard time imagining the Netflix user who isn't into anime seeing one of these shows and checking it out. Maybe with LWA, but Kuromukuro? Fate/Apocrypha? The Netflix subscription model supports it being the wholesale replacement of TV, a one-stop shop for video content. Who is the person for whom the occasional anime like this moves them from the nonsubscriber to subscriber category?

There are a lot of casual anime fans out there and that's the audience that Netflix is going after. I think people forget that there is now an entire generation that grew up thinking that watching anime was just like watching any other show. That's why they pick shows that they think have mainstream crossover. What Netflix is really good at is providing a broad range of shows. Someone might have signed up for Netflix to watch Daredevil but they might also be sci-fi anime fans so they stick around and watch Kuromukuro or Knights of Sidonia. Once Netflix has them signed up, all they have to do is keep enough content and variety of shows so they stick around. I have a friend who just watched the first season of Attack on Titan last fall because it was on Netflix. This model would never work for the super niche shows but for more mainstream shows and especially sci-fi/fantasy shows (which seems to be what Netflix is focusing on), it probably works pretty well for them. They might lose the hardcore fans but they make up for that by having it dubbed and ready to binge for the more casual fans.

Last edited by Stryfermon on Fri Jul 07, 2017 2:38 pm; edited 1 time in total

I think there are plenty that watch anime, who also watch Netflix, that don't mind the format of binge-watching a show. With Netflix model compared to example CR, you would even save more the 50% to watch a show. For exclusive/original shows Netflix usually makes them available across all markets. Not a guarantee with CR for a lot of their shows.

Releasing all the episode at once, as someone who really like diving into a show, it's awesome not being forced to wait a week/months to be able to watch the rest of a series. Can't really see too many problems with releasing all episodes at once, even if you want to discuss each episode with friends before the next comes out, you can still do that.

Either method is fine with me, got enough stuff to watch until Fate is released on Netflix in November. Anyways good points in the Answerman, would love to see more merchandise be more available and easy to get when a show releases.

Food for thought. If I had come to this very forum twelve years ago and openly said "Piracy will give us legal next day subtitled anime streaming" I would have been laughed at (best case scenario). Has anybody thought that this time around piracy might give us netflix simuldubs? OK, now is your chance to laugh at me, I can take it. But if I am right I will quote this post for years to come.

Netflix releases everything at a minimum of one part/season at a time. They do it for everything. They *could* simulcast. It's not like they have no way of getting the technology. They don't want to be Hulu. Their thing is full seasons though, and that's why they don't.

MarshalBanana wrote:

Before looking at the answer, my guess is because Netflix was built around shows like House of Cards(US), which is designed to be binged watch. And Netflx users don't use the service for weekly episodes.

Netflix was around for a long time before House of Cards got made. It's not why they don't simulcast.

everapril wrote:

Trying to imagine Yuri on Ice being released under this model and can't imagine the hype would have been anything close. That was a real fun experience as an anime fan, man.

Back in the 90s, we still got a lot of the hype and fun experience from new hot shows like that, even though we had to wait months for a translation (and then longer if you wanted a fansub based off the LaserDisc release instead of television). There was actually something special about the importance of clubs and cons (including con video rooms). I don't exactly miss those days, considering how easy and fast it is to get everything legal, but I think that the "social media fan experience" even for a super popular show is pretty boring and lacks hype compared to how it was with real life excitement of being part of the subculture. Then again, for people in a more remote location, they could never participate in that.

Spike Terra wrote:

Nine fan sub groups (each in different languages) have decided to pick up Fate/Apocrypha. One of those groups came back from the dead after at least two years of inactivity. Oddly enough I found 14 groups for Kakegurui. Sub groups seem to crop up in greater frequency when Netflix declares that they have acquired the rights to a show.

Naturally. People prefer to have a moral justification for their actions. The several month delay does it for groups now, even though back in the VHS days fansub groups would consider mere (often months or years, even decades later) licensing of a show to be reason enough to stop circulating tapes and pull fansubs from distribution. So by today's standards groups springing to life only with Netflix shows are relatively ethical, but back then they would be considered unethical pirates compared to ethical fansubbers. Partially shows how situations and expectations change ethics.

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