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Alan45
 Village Elder
Joined: 25 Aug 2010
Posts: 9834
Location: Virginia
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 Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 7:11 am
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Not to mention that the failure to read an entire line while watching a subtitled show simply means that, if it is important, you have to back up the show a few seconds. Failure to pay attention while driving has somewhat greater consequences.
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leafy sea dragon
Joined: 27 Oct 2009
Posts: 7163
Location: Another Kingdom
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Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:12 am
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| Sakagami Tomoyo wrote: | | Rotoscoping is actually cheaper. Tracing over an existing shape is faster and less skilled work than drawing a series of shapes with movement that looks right. The trouble is that rotoscoping just doesn't look very good, and for the creative touchup work that'd need to be done to make it look good, you might as well have just drawn it from scratch in the first place. Increase in cost for having someone animate rather than rotoscope is offset by not needing to pay the model(s). |
Huh, if rotoscoping is cheaper, then why isn't it used more often for scenes with a lot of precise, quick movements going on at once, most notably dancing? Is it because it clashes with the anime way of character movement?
I know rotoscoping and motion capture is used extensively in western animation (and motion capture was used to animate Al in that live-action Fullmetal Alchemist movie). I grew up on western animation, so rotoscoped movement doesn't bother me much, if at all.
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Sakagami Tomoyo
Joined: 06 Dec 2008
Posts: 940
Location: Melbourne, VIC, Australia
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Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 6:46 pm
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| leafy sea dragon wrote: | | Huh, if rotoscoping is cheaper, then why isn't it used more often for scenes with a lot of precise, quick movements going on at once, most notably dancing? Is it because it clashes with the anime way of character movement? |
That is one of the ways it doesn't look very good, yes. Aside from that, if you want the character art in those scenes to match the traditionally animated ones elsewhere, you're making enough changes from the rotoscoping that there's little point in having rotoscoped to begin with.
To give you an idea: look at the Flowers of Evil anime. That's straight rotoscoping. Now imagine just editing a clip from that into the middle of a more typically animated anime, and how massively out of place it'd look. Now imagine how much re-drawing you'd need to do to make the Flowers of Evil clip look like it belongs; it's so close to just re-drawing from scratch that you may as well not have bothered rotoscoping to begin with. If you're going to do anything to make animating dance sequences easier, CG is the better way. In fact, what little clips of idol anime I've seen do just that.
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DerekL1963
Subscriber
Joined: 14 Jan 2015
Posts: 1113
Location: Puget Sound
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Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 8:50 pm
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| leafy sea dragon wrote: |
| Sakagami Tomoyo wrote: | | Rotoscoping is actually cheaper. Tracing over an existing shape is faster and less skilled work than drawing a series of shapes with movement that looks right. The trouble is that rotoscoping just doesn't look very good, and for the creative touchup work that'd need to be done to make it look good, you might as well have just drawn it from scratch in the first place. Increase in cost for having someone animate rather than rotoscope is offset by not needing to pay the model(s). |
Huh, if rotoscoping is cheaper |
You didn't read, or didn't understand, the entire statement. Rotoscoping is cheaper at the drawing table because it's faster and takes less skill than traditional animation - it's more expensive overall because of the need to pay the model, pay the cameraman, etc... etc...
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lebrel
Joined: 16 Oct 2009
Posts: 374
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Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 8:54 pm
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| Sakagami Tomoyo wrote: |
| leafy sea dragon wrote: | | Huh, if rotoscoping is cheaper, then why isn't it used more often for scenes with a lot of precise, quick movements going on at once, most notably dancing? Is it because it clashes with the anime way of character movement? |
That is one of the ways it doesn't look very good, yes. Aside from that, if you want the character art in those scenes to match the traditionally animated ones elsewhere, you're making enough changes from the rotoscoping that there's little point in having rotoscoped to begin with.
To give you an idea: look at the Flowers of Evil anime. That's straight rotoscoping. Now imagine just editing a clip from that into the middle of a more typically animated anime, and how massively out of place it'd look. Now imagine how much re-drawing you'd need to do to make the Flowers of Evil clip look like it belongs; it's so close to just re-drawing from scratch that you may as well not have bothered rotoscoping to begin with. If you're going to do anything to make animating dance sequences easier, CG is the better way. In fact, what little clips of idol anime I've seen do just that. |
Counterexample: most of the skate routines in Yuri on Ice were rotoscoped (with a lot of touch-up to make them blend in with the rest of the animation), which made them look very realistic and convincing (and awesome). Of course, YOI obviously had a pretty insane budget by TV anime standards....
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leafy sea dragon
Joined: 27 Oct 2009
Posts: 7163
Location: Another Kingdom
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Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 1:32 am
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| DerekL1963 wrote: | | You didn't read, or didn't understand, the entire statement. Rotoscoping is cheaper at the drawing table because it's faster and takes less skill than traditional animation - it's more expensive overall because of the need to pay the model, pay the cameraman, etc... etc... |
Hmm, I must've gotten a brainfart or forgot something then. So basically, rotoscoping requires a bunch more people, who have to be paid, which offsets the reduced price, and because it can stylistically clash with the anime so it'd have to be heavily reworked.
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Polycell
Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Posts: 4623
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Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 10:26 pm
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| lebrel wrote: | | Counterexample: most of the skate routines in Yuri on Ice were rotoscoped (with a lot of touch-up to make them blend in with the rest of the animation), which made them look very realistic and convincing (and awesome). Of course, YOI obviously had a pretty insane budget by TV anime standards.... |
Rotoscoping gets its bad reputation since it's mostly used as a shortcut since they're usually tracing cheap models who don't know how to act(when they're not reusing VAs, who tend not to know how to do physical acting, either). Rotoscoping done right, as you mentioned, can look absolutely gorgeous; the Fleischer Superman cartoons used it to great effect(though these also had a generous budget).
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crosswithyou
Joined: 15 Dec 2007
Posts: 2892
Location: California
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Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 12:45 am
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| lebrel wrote: | | Counterexample: most of the skate routines in Yuri on Ice were rotoscoped (with a lot of touch-up to make them blend in with the rest of the animation), which made them look very realistic and convincing (and awesome). Of course, YOI obviously had a pretty insane budget by TV anime standards.... |
I disagree with the last sentence. I'm fairly sure it had a standard budget. The producers have no way of knowing before production that the series was going to turn out to be such a big hit that it was.
I forget who said it, but an animator has tweeted before that if the animation looks really nice, it's not because they had a bigger budget but rather because the animation staff was just that dedicated.
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