Forum - View topicHey, Santaman! [2006-12-22]
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ACDragonMaster
 Posts: 405 |
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Have you actually read through this entire thread? Because I certainly haven't seen you offer any evidence to refute many of the points and arguments already raised. And as I recall, thanks to new rules posting without bothering to read what's already been said is now a bannable offense... People have offered, repeatedly, evidence and examples that refute your arguments. You have, in attempting to argue back, brought nothing new to the table. You hide behind generic opinion statements like "Winry spend most of FMA acting like an air head" and "the only women with a decent set of balls in that show" without bothering to actually prove or support them. Granted, many of the posts made in this thread do the same, but there are also quite a few that DO offer more detailed arguments, describing in deal the scenes and situations they're referencing. In other words, you're either ignoring all these arguments, or not reading them in the first place, neither of which actions give any credence to the point you're trying to make. In the rant, you might be able to get away with not truly supporting your claims if your intent is merely to stir the pot, but if you want to actually argue them beyond that, you'll need to show some real evidence, not just unsupported opinions and half-baked attempts at a witty response. |
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Craeyst Raygal
 Posts: 1383 Location: In the garage, beneath a 1970 MGB GT. |
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As the person who brought up Priss, I want to know just how big a BGC fan that you are, burzmali.
Because unless you heard the old Bubblegum Crisis radio drama, there's NO WAY you'd know that Priss actually loved Leon, and otherwise you're just jumping to conclusions in order to prove your theory. Seriously, the guy's stand-up decent and she barely tolerates him for the majority of the 8 episode series. I mean, c'mon, ever watch Wolf's Rain? Every guy in the series is a melodramatic crybaby. Hmmm, maybe you haven't watched any of Go Nagai's Devilman works (especially Devilman Lady) which regularly have powerful and "broad-shouldered" female characters. And what about series where female characters are specifically written to be emotionally vulnerable? Would the romance of Maison Ikkoku have been as believable if Kyoko wasn't in a fragile state? |
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burzmali
Posts: 143 |
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To be fair, you listed a show where a ship full of women is helpless unless a male pilots it, another male pilots the most important mech, and a third male acts as the doctor. And to make things even worst, in the end, it turns out that spoiler[ a man was leading them the whole time!] I liked the show, but I hardly believe it good example of a show that doesn't reinforce the concept that women need men to get by.
You want to start the conversation again? Okay, let's start simple. Let's take romantic comedy animes. I'll list whole bunch where the women are lost without men and you explain why they don't portray women in a negative light. Please Teacher: The female lead is supposed to be the mature one, but is not only more childlike, but also more prone to breaking into tears at will. Please Twins: Female leads are suppose to be the same age as the male lead, but possess all the maturity of a my 5 year-old cousin. Ai Yori Aoshi: Male lead unfappable, while all of the female leads (minus the spunky lolis) go to pieces and can't get by without his help. Love Hina + Pretty much every Harem Show: As above, but without discounting the lolis. (I wanted to list His and Hers Circumstances, but I will give it credit for portraying the female lead's behaviour in a believable light.) If you can handle those, why don't you list Action animes that don't fit the stereotype next. |
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Craeyst Raygal
Posts: 1383 Location: In the garage, beneath a 1970 MGB GT. |
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Shall we begin by calling a horse a horse?
Specifically, you're citing male-fantasy oriented romantic comedies as being *gasp* unrealistic portrayals of women? Dear God man! Next you'll tell me that I Dream of Jeannie isn't real either! |
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burzmali
Posts: 143 |
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That's right, challenge my fanhood... Don't worry, I have a bigger ePenis anyways 
Unless you read a different rant than I, that wasn't the point. The point is, that at some point, she would falter or collaspe, while a man in a similiar position won't. BGC isn't the best series to debate this over, as most of the cast is female (the men don't have enough camera time to shatter). However, I will limit my comment to only BGC2040, something about the scenes that reduce Priss to an innocence little girl when it comes to Leon's manly wiles always left me rolling my eyes.
Yeah, and I am still trying find someone who will refund those 13 hours of my life.
And what about series where female characters are specifically written to be emotionally vulnerable? Would the romance of Maison Ikkoku have been as believable if Kyoko wasn't in a fragile state? [/quote] I have no problem with vunerable characters, if they don't violate my suspension of disbelief. Take Ohno from Genishiken, she becomes a ditz the moment someone tries to expose her secret shame, but I can buy that. If I had yuri posters all over my walls, I would probably go to pieces if a stranger walked into my room. On the other hand, the suggestion that a tough chick like Priss can't handle herself around a guy like Leon is too jarring for me to easily swallow. |
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Craeyst Raygal
Posts: 1383 Location: In the garage, beneath a 1970 MGB GT. |
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By limiting your argument to 2040, you eliminate the original concept of the character (a powerful, tough as nails, but highly volatile woman) and thus win your argument.
Clever. :roll: But all right, since you're unfamiliar with the original series, and have only seen the trite bastardization (2040), we'll skip it and go back further in time to Emeraldas (whom I've previously mentioned). In Emeraldas, and even her sister Maetel, we have women who are role models, women who inspire revolution, lead the charge into battle, and are still sensitive, maternal (in Maetel's case) and loving (in Emeraldas). |
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burzmali
Posts: 143 |
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I own both, and AD Police (both versions) and Crash, and Parasite Dolls. I limited it to 2040 because it only happens in 2040, it's almost like I admitted that I had overstated my position, then voluntarily amended my claim so that I was sure I was on solid ground.
Never watched much of the Harlock stuff, never could get passed the "it's a battleship, IN SPACE" bit, my loss I suppose. |
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Craeyst Raygal
Posts: 1383 Location: In the garage, beneath a 1970 MGB GT. |
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Well, then that we're on equal ground on Bubble - and kudos by the way, since it remains anime's most bitchinest soundtrack - then I'll agree that Priss in 2040 does support your stance, however, Priss in the original series doesn't.
And it's a shame that you haven't given a shake to Matsumoto's work, since it's a really expansive universe that has always struck me as surprisingly human. Admittedly, there are truly only a few anime that I consider to truly show off humanity in their characters, but that number does seem to be growing. Rahxephon, the Macross canon (particularly plus), the assorted works of Satoshi Kon, Mamoru Oshii, and Yoshitoshi Abe, the original Tenchi Muyo OAV's, the works of Leiji Matsumoto (excepting Gun Frontier), Vampire Hunter D:Bloodlust, Maison Ikkoku, Kimagure Orange Road, and the list does continue. I even feel that you're unfairly lumping Ai Yori Aoshi in with the harem series, as the star couple of the series - Kaoru and Aoi - are actually shown to be co-dependent on each other. Kaoru relies as much on Aoi's support and affection as Aoi depends on him. Having known couples just like that in real life, it's actually quite affirming to see it in anime, where couples tend to just randomly come together at the last moment. |
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burzmali
Posts: 143 |
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To be honest, I haven't watched many of those lately, I would have to watch them again to make a point. I will point out that the Macross ladies tended to be painfully needy though...
I did break it out from the Harem shows in general. However, I recently watched it a second time with my wife (not particularly an anime fan), and I couldn't help but feel a little embrassed by the treatment of women in the show. |
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Craeyst Raygal
Posts: 1383 Location: In the garage, beneath a 1970 MGB GT. |
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And I'd simply point out that there are needy people in real life. When you look at the whole of the mecha genre, Macross Plus stands out as one of the most "human" series within it.
Of course, then I remind myself that Patlabor is probably an even better example.
I won't deny that Ai Yori Aoshi emphasizes unrealistic sexuality and exaggerates certain female character traits to create cartoonish examples of sexual icons. That's a portion of the romantic comedy that goes back as far as Mae West! I mean, sheesh, ever watch Some Like it Hot or The Seven Year Itch? |
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Murasakisuishou
 Posts: 1469 Location: NE Ohio |
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Apparently the ranter this week has never really been close friends with anyone if they've never seen anyone break down and cry. My best friend is one of the calmest and most collected people I know. Seriously, this girl keeps her head through almost anything. Once when I was over at her house, her dad started shouting at her, and she just started crying all over me. Anime people, no matter what they're normally like (and if they're developed properly), should similarly have the luxury of being able to break down when they get upset.
First off, if the producers of Conqueror of Shamballa were trying to make Eckhart seem weak and vulnerable, they did a miserable job. Sure, she was annoying as hell, but she was strong willed to an almost fanatical point, and she may as well have been a man. I also agree with whoever named Riza Hawkeye as a strong example of a female character. It was really her lack of emotion throughout the entire series that made spoiler[her breakdown over Roy in the last episode] so moving. Speaking of strong women even in dramatic anime, NANA, anyone? Sure, Hachi flips out over nothing, but her ability to keep smiling and moving forward through all that's happening to her continues to astound me. And Nana too, with spoiler[her internal struggle over whether or not she wants to have children and all that] I think that's a better example of female strength as it applies to real life. As so many others have stated, realistic characters should cry over or react strongly to something at least once in a fairly serious anime. When I watch anime I want to be entertained by human emotions, I don't want to sit down for an hour and watch people made of wood face their challenges by just brushing them off and 'keeping their emotions in check'. If someone you cared about was mortally injured or killed, would you stand there and be all "oh well then" about it? If so, there is no possible way you are truly human. About the book-to-anime conversions, I agree with His Dark Materials and The Dark is Rising. Both were excellent series and they'd make wonderful anime (hopefully of a decent length). I'd also like to add in The Mists of Avalon, even though there've been movies and crud already. It's got magic, kickass chicks, and everyone sleeping with everyone else. Also, wasn't there going to be a Pippi Longstocking anime movie by Miyazaki or something? |
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ACDragonMaster
Posts: 405 |
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You just refuted your own argument. Every one of those titles is a harem series aimed at the MALE audience. Try watching a harem anime aimed at the female audience, like Fushigi Yuugi, perhaps, and see what you think of the characters', both male and female, portrayals there. Or just watch something that isn't harem and isn't catering almost exclusively to a male audience in the first place. |
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burzmali
Posts: 143 |
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So the argument that Anime portrays women as overly needy and weak versus the manly men is invalid, because I limited my choices to shows that appeal to men? So, how does that work exactly? Unless all shows do it, it doesn't count? That's like saying that having a token black guy in a romantic comedy act stereotypical is okay because the show's target demographic was white. Is it too hard to understand that Japan is much more male dominated than the US? As such, their media will reinforce that view. The end result is wimpy chicks who need saving by manly men in anime. It isn't a hard and fast rule, and there are exceptions, but most anime has the gender equality of a Hemmingway novel. Look at EVERY Gundam series. Is there even one where the tough female pilot doesn't lose her head and do something stupid because her man is in danger? Even when the tables are turned and the woman is the hotshot star of the show, the leading man will eventually surpass her and have to save her repeatedly (a la Blue Gender). |
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Keonyn
 Subscriber Posts: 5567 Location: Coon Rapids, MN |
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Let's not turn the new guidelines in to a witch hunt, that certainly isn't why they were put in place. And burzmali, yes, it is hard for some people to understand. Some people in the anime world just have a hard time accepting the fact that Japan isn't all sugary sweet bubbly happiness. When something becomes an obsession often people become blinded to the negatives and see only the positives, insisting the subject of their obsession is perfect. Could be a factor here, while not every anime fan is that way there's no shortage of ones who are. |
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Steventheeunuch
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Personally, I just found burzmali's choices for examples to be fairly weak, considering that they are, once again, harem shows made for male audiences. However, you will notice the trend of more milque-toast type male antagonists in those types of shows (as of recent, but don't rely on me 100% since I really don't have time for them, I'm going on what I can see and hear), the ones portrayed as pathetic or disfunctional, perhaps so that Otaku can actually insert themselves or whatever.
Fact is yes, Japan has been a male dominant society. It's been that way forever, and won't change any time soon. I think at some point we were talking about anime. Hambutts. |
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