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Hey, Santaman! [2006-12-22]


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ACDragonMaster



Joined: 23 Aug 2004
Posts: 405
PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 5:01 pm Reply with quote
burzmali wrote:
So the argument that Anime portrays women as overly needy and weak versus the manly men is invalid, because I limited my choices to shows that appeal to men? So, how does that work exactly? Unless all shows do it, it doesn't count? That's like saying that having a token black guy in a romantic comedy act stereotypical is okay because the show's target demographic was white.


No, your argument is simply unsubstantiated. And your refusal to give any real rebuttal to many of the points raises here in this thread does nothing to help your case, either. You're trying to speak of anime in general, but you only focus on examples from a very specific genre. Thus, your argument is nothing more than an interesting opinion to note, but lacks any convincing evidence to back it up.

Quote:
Is it too hard to understand that Japan is much more male dominated than the US? As such, their media will reinforce that view. The end result is wimpy chicks who need saving by manly men in anime. It isn't a hard and fast rule, and there are exceptions, but most anime has the gender equality of a Hemmingway novel. Look at EVERY Gundam series. Is there even one where the tough female pilot doesn't lose her head and do something stupid because her man is in danger? Even when the tables are turned and the woman is the hotshot star of the show, the leading man will eventually surpass her and have to save her repeatedly (a la Blue Gender).


Ah, so this is the problem. We are here making assumptions about other cultures being not as "enlightened" as the US and its alleged "equal rights" and so forth. Is Japanese society patriarchal? Yes. Do underlying cultural assumptions work their way into the entertainment produced in that culture? Yes. But is this the ONLY thing that ends up shown in Japanese animation? Not by a long shot. Why not pick on the underlying themes of conformity and fitting into one's expected social roles as well? Or how about, why not pick on American-produced entertainment and all little nasties that are encouraged as values there?

Or hm, let's look at something else. Sure, Japan is patriarchal. Can you point out any modern culture that ISN'T? HOWEVER, some of the oldest and famous works of Japanese literature were written by, guess what? Women. Can you say the same about European works? Japan has traditionally had a certain system of roles people were expected to fill, duties they were expected to perform. But this is NOT limited to a gender issue, it applies to adults and children of various ages, and social classes as well. Since you've opened this can of worms, why not pick on the expectations made of all social classes, or the Japanese ethnocentricity and opinions of foreigners?

You're also missing a very major point in all this- the female audience's view of such things. Perhaps a feminist would be extremely offended, but what about, worldwide, the average female? What about the flip side to a main female character breaking down and being helped out by the male lead, in which the male lead is forced into the role of NOT being allowed to be emotionally affected and being required to be strong where others are allowed to be weak? There is not just the one side to the issue.

And finally, do you really think that the female audience in general will have any interest in a character who never emotionally reacts, even when the situation is appropriate? Let's invoke Riza Hawkeye and Roy Mustang from the Fullmetal Alchemist anime, for example. Riza is the always even-tempered, cool-headed, and sensible one, only showing any sort of reaction when spoiler[surprised by the monstrous sight of the Tucker chimera] and when spoiler[she believes that Roy, a person whose cause she has devoted her life to, may be dead.] Roy, on the other hand, at various points spoiler[cries, gets stuck in a depressed, half-mad funk that he has to be almost violently shaken out of, and attempts to commit suicide.] Comparing the two, really, is Roy shown to be such an impossibly strong male character? And is Riza actually truly that weak? No. Riza acts amazingly composed even in some of the worst situations, only breaking that when pushed to an extreme. Roy constantly reacts very emotionally towards things, and really could be seen as the emotionally weaker of the two. But it's the fact that Riza is NOT so perfect all the time that adds depth to the character that viewers can appreciate, and that female viewers in particular may sympathize with or admire. Because, as the quote at the end goes, "the world isn't perfect, that's why it's beautiful". The characters are not perfect, and that's what people find admirable about them.

And really, try going to a bookstore sometime and picking up a womens' romance novel written by a female author sometime, and see how much some of the portrayals of scenes actually differ from the average anime.
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Strephon



Joined: 15 Sep 2006
Posts: 177
PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 6:00 pm Reply with quote
Keonyn wrote:
And burzmali, yes, it is hard for some people to understand. Some people in the anime world just have a hard time accepting the fact that Japan isn't all sugary sweet bubbly happiness. When something becomes an obsession often people become blinded to the negatives and see only the positives, insisting the subject of their obsession is perfect. Could be a factor here, while not every anime fan is that way there's no shortage of ones who are.


And some people simply aren't fond of poorly supported overgeneralizations.
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burzmali



Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 143
PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 9:44 pm Reply with quote
ACDragonMaster wrote:
No, your argument is simply unsubstantiated. And your refusal to give any real rebuttal to many of the points raises here in this thread does nothing to help your case, either. You're trying to speak of anime in general, but you only focus on examples from a very specific genre. Thus, your argument is nothing more than an interesting opinion to note, but lacks any convincing evidence to back it up.

If I speak about a specific anime in general, you ask for examples. If I choose a specific, VERY POPULAR, genre, you claim I am moving the goal posts. We can go back an forth on this all day, but the portrayal of women embrasses me regularly whenever I watch a romantic comedy series with my wife. If you don't think it is there, well I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
ACDragonMaster wrote:
But is this the ONLY thing that ends up shown in Japanese animation? Not by a long shot. Why not pick on the underlying themes of conformity and fitting into one's expected social roles as well? Or how about, why not pick on American-produced entertainment and all little nasties that are encouraged as values there?

When in doubt, move the goal posts. You admit its there, but its not a problem because, well, the US does worst and they are only reinforcing the underlying social order.
ACDragonMaster wrote:
Or hm, let's look at something else. Sure, Japan is patriarchal. Can you point out any modern culture that ISN'T? HOWEVER, some of the oldest and famous works of Japanese literature were written by, guess what? Women. Can you say the same about European works?

I suppose Charolette Bronte would disagree with you, but if you really want to deflect the conversation that badly, just bring up Nazis, it works like a charm.

ACDragonMaster wrote:

Snipped more socio-political commentary
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Snipped more attempts to flip the conversation to the poor portrayal of men in anime (not that I disagree with your comment that anime stereotypifies men too, but the rant addressed the female side of the issue)
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Snipped FMA lovefest (no offense, but Riza acting like a 12 year old girl whenever her feelings for Roy were brought up got boring incredibly quickly for me)
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And really, try going to a bookstore sometime and picking up a womens' romance novel written by a female author sometime, and see how much some of the portrayals of scenes actually differ from the average anime.

Sorry, but I have no desire to read that many colorful but lurid descriptions of the male genitalia.

Anime aimed at men tend to cast women in weak positions so that the otaku watching can imagine that they are Akito swooping to rescue Yurika and Megami from their own foolishness. Or Spike saving Fae after she does something rash. Or Vash saving... well pretty much everyone. The US has toned down the misogyny plenty in the last decade or two. Call it political correctness, but I like that Firefly had strong women that were more than foils for the boys. Star Trek tried with DS9 and Voyager. I watch those, and then I watch the latest FMP series where Kanami is largely defined through her relationship to Sosuke, and the strong captain was reduced to a tittering school girl by him (largely FUMOFFU fault, but it is still canon)
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ACDragonMaster



Joined: 23 Aug 2004
Posts: 405
PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 10:31 pm Reply with quote
burzmali wrote:
If I speak about a specific anime in general, you ask for examples. If I choose a specific, VERY POPULAR, genre, you claim I am moving the goal posts. We can go back an forth on this all day, but the portrayal of women embrasses me regularly whenever I watch a romantic comedy series with my wife. If you don't think it is there, well I guess we will have to agree to disagree.


Oh yes, it's SUCH a popular genre, in fact, that it dominates some of the most well-known manga anthologies and is frequently aired in dubbed form on US tv.

...oh wait, nevermind, that's generic shounen action series, not harem, sorry.

And like I said before, ever try watching a romance-themed series that's NOT necesarily aimed at the same sort of audience who plays H games? Fushigi Yuugi, or if you want comedy, try one of Rumiko Takahashi's works for once.

Quote:
I suppose Charolette Bronte would disagree with you, but if you really want to deflect the conversation that badly, just bring up Nazis, it works like a charm.


Charlotte Bronte lived and wrote in the 19th century. In other words, in more or less modern times. Murasaki Shikibu lived and wrote way back in the 11th century. I do not recall Europe being anywhere near that "enlightened" then.

Quote:
Snipped more attempts to flip the conversation to the poor portrayal of men in anime (not that I disagree with your comment that anime stereotypifies men too, but the rant addressed the female side of the issue)


So you're saying, it's okay to get rid of one stereotype while ignoring the other? That's not very equal treatment now is it. On the other hand, perhaps neither is as broken as you make it out to be.

Quote:
Snipped FMA lovefest (no offense, but Riza acting like a 12 year old girl whenever her feelings for Roy were brought up got boring incredibly quickly for me)


And you apparently did not even bother to read it, as you have missed the point. Riza is far more emotionally stable than Roy is, up to and including any alleged "feelings". The only thing established canonically is that she has an incredibly strong sense of loyalty, and has committed herself to following his cause. Where Roy runs off and does things impulsively on his own like a child, she follows through with a level head, only becoming frustrated when she feels that she hasn't lived up to the expectations and perfection that she has set for herself.

Quote:
Sorry, but I have no desire to read that many colorful but lurid descriptions of the male genitalia.


And hence you apparently refuse to get a fuller image of things. And it is quite possible to find plenty of material that is not inherently pornographic in nature.

Quote:
Anime aimed at men tend to cast women in weak positions so that the otaku watching can imagine that they are Akito swooping to rescue Yurika and Megami from their own foolishness. Or Spike saving Fae after she does something rash. Or Vash saving... well pretty much everyone. The US has toned down the misogyny plenty in the last decade or two. Call it political correctness, but I like that Firefly had strong women that were more than foils for the boys. Star Trek tried with DS9 and Voyager. I watch those, and then I watch the latest FMP series where Kanami is largely defined through her relationship to Sosuke, and the strong captain was reduced to a tittering school girl by him (largely FUMOFFU fault, but it is still canon)


Because Faye never manages to one-up the guys with her own methods, and Vash is such a typical example of a human male. And Kaylee doesn't spoiler[suddenly find motivation to fight harder and live through things because she's suddenly found out her potential love interest is returned,] and Inara certainly didn't spoiler[impulsively kiss Mal when she briefly thought he might have been killed.] Gee, I guess US series are such shining examples of NEVER portraying women as reacting emotionally to something severe happening to a person they happen to care about.

And lovely that you can't even be bothered to spell Kaname's name nor even take into consideration that in Second Raid she spoiler[picked up a gullible older man to take her to a love hotel and proceeded to then knock him out and tie him up in the room, slipping out the window in a nightrobe and with a gun in order to, by herself, sneak up on the agent who'd been keeping tabs on her and force them to tell her what was going on as well as then proceeding to defend herself against an assassin] while Sousuke in the same spoiler[becomes an utter emotional wreck when he's lead to believe that Kaname's been killed, and isn't able to come to terms with anything until Kaname herself finally shows up and beats some sense into him.] And not to mention you seem to forget the fact that Tessa IS in fact hardly more than a "school girl" in age and experience (at least when it comes to relationships), and in fact is only marginally less emotionally retarded than Sousuke, having been brought up in a similarly military environment.

In short, as I, and many, many others in this thread have illustrated, in the majority of modern anime series female characters are not, in fact, generally portrayed as two-dimensional and vulnerable as you seem to wish to make them out to be. Perhaps you should try watching more than one genre, and perhaps you should pay closer attention to the characters as a whole, and not just when they happen to be fulfilling what you've apparently decided you want to see.
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Murasakisuishou



Joined: 22 Jun 2006
Posts: 1469
Location: NE Ohio
PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 10:43 pm Reply with quote
ACDragonMaster wrote:


Quote:
Snipped FMA lovefest (no offense, but Riza acting like a 12 year old girl whenever her feelings for Roy were brought up got boring incredibly quickly for me)


And you apparently did not even bother to read it, as you have missed the point. Riza is far more emotionally stable than Roy is, up to and including any alleged "feelings". The only thing established canonically is that she has an incredibly strong sense of loyalty, and has committed herself to following his cause. Where Roy runs off and does things impulsively on his own like a child, she follows through with a level head, only becoming frustrated when she feels that she hasn't lived up to the expectations and perfection that she has set for herself.



You beat me to it. Thank you.
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Keonyn
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Joined: 25 May 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 11:39 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
Charlotte Bronte lived and wrote in the 19th century. In other words, in more or less modern times. Murasaki Shikibu lived and wrote way back in the 11th century. I do not recall Europe being anywhere near that "enlightened" then.


Hardly meaningful, a single author doesn't make the region enlightened. Japan was still largely consumed by war, corruption, prostitution, crime, xenophobia among other things in that era and later. While female authors may not have been commonplace in 11th century Europe it would be a huge stretch to say that Japan was significantly, or even slightly, ahead of the times at that stage nor were females of any significance even remotely common in Japan at that point regardless.

I think both sides make a good case and what I think either side fails to realize is that there will not be a 0% or a 100% and even when something is common that doesn't mean it is dominant. I have to admit that females in weak positions or reliant on males is a common trend in anime, is it dominant? I wouldn't say so, but it's common enough to be more noticeable a theme in anime than in other modern mediums. As usual though, the shades of grey are lost to most and once again it's just those who see only black arguing with those who see only white for an eternity.
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Katze



Joined: 20 Nov 2005
Posts: 1
PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 2:36 am Reply with quote
I think a lot of you are missing the point of the rant.

He isn't saying that women in anime shouldn't show vulnerable sides...he's saying that they shouldn't be so emotionally weak as often as they are. Yeah, men in anime have breakdowns too, but just how often? I've seen the same examples of crying men in this topic over and over again (Trigun and FMA to name a couple). Basically, they ARE there, they just aren't very common. In most anime, a tough guy is a tough guy. He may have a softer side, but I'll bet anything that he still isn't nearly as emotionally weak as the women in the show.

Sure, women can and should have emotional sides, but must they ALWAYS? I'm always excited when I'm watching a new anime and there is a tough female character who can take care of herself, until later on when it becomes apparent that she isn't emotionally strong enough to stand on her own and she needs a man to save her or to cry on or something. Why can't tough women just be...tough? They can have soft sides, but why do they always have to display it through crying? Why can't they show their weaker sides in more subtler ways, or why can't they be independent enough to rely on themselves once in awhile?

Face it. In the majority of anime, women, even the "strong" ones, are eventually shown as being too emotionally weak or vulnerable to stand on their own or really make a difference at all in the show. Seriously, I'm tired of the typical female who's tough on the outside and is usually bossy and/or can beat up the guys in the show (because they let her, usually) but when things get really tough, she becomes an emotional wreak. Emotional weakness is good, it shows that a character is not necessarily flat. But I would love it if both males and females displayed this weakness, and not always through crying or zomg angst.

Now, I'm not saying that animes which contradict these archtypes don't exist, so don't go throwing examples of characters at me. I don't care, I probably already know about them anyway. I KNOW that there are animes in which both the men and women show emotional sides, in which strong women really are strong, etc. But they aren't the majority, no matter how much you may try to argue otherwise. And no, anime isn't the only form of animation that portrays people in this way, but we're not talking about other forms of animation. Or at least, we shouldn't be, because that's not the point.

And I also know that "animes" is probably not a word. Sue me.

Also. Just because something is targeted toward a male audience doesn't mean it's perfectly okay for it to portray either gender in a negative light.
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burzmali



Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 143
PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 8:38 am Reply with quote
Well, I guess I am just not enough of a fan to realize your point ACDragonMaster. I guess if I haven't seen a swarm of shows more than a decade old, in genres where I am not the target audience, I just don't deserve to comment on anime. I've really never been a fan of using an "argument from authority" to debate a subject, but don't let that whole "it's a logical fallacy" thing stop you.

Also, I love how you had to qualify "pornographic" with "inherently" up above, classic. Next time try tossing in "per se" as well.

Quote:
He isn't saying that women in anime shouldn't show vulnerable sides...he's saying that they shouldn't be so emotionally weak as often as they are.


Standard debating tactic on the Internet. If you can't will the actual debate, change the subject something you can win, and debate that instead.
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Wakaiba



Joined: 08 May 2006
Posts: 62
PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 4:42 pm Reply with quote
I'm sure its been said somewhere within the 100-ish posts before me, but Osamu Tezuka's works in the 70s and 80s are very mature - I know many of his works are manga when I believe the question regarded animes, but they are still very mature pieces that transcend their time.

Also, although its not a book, Jim Henson's Laberinth (sp?) was turned into a manga (Return To The Laberinth). It was decent, too.
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Zalis116
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Joined: 31 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 5:26 pm Reply with quote
burzmali wrote:
Well, I guess I am just not enough of a fan to realize your point ACDragonMaster. I guess if I haven't seen a swarm of shows more than a decade old, in genres where I am not the target audience, I just don't deserve to comment on anime. I've really never been a fan of using an "argument from authority" to debate a subject, but don't let that whole "it's a logical fallacy" thing stop you.
In a way, no, you don't deserve to. I agree with you, burznali, that a lot of recent romantic comedies have embarrasingly bad portrayals of female characters. However, just because some shows came out before 1996 or aren't targeted at your gender doesn't make them irrelevant. A lot of these series like Ranma 1/2, Maison Ikkoku, Kimagure Orange Road, Urusei Yatsura, Tenchi Muyo!, and even Fushigi Yuugi are considered pillars of modern anime, since a lot of the conventions and cliches we see now can be traced back to them. I haven't seen all of them myself, but it's not fallacious to invoke them. If you want to comment on anime in general, that means exposing yourself to a wide range of it, not just recent series targeted at your gender.
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burzmali



Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 143
PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 6:27 pm Reply with quote
Zalis116 wrote:
In a way, no, you don't deserve to. I agree with you, burznali, that a lot of recent romantic comedies have embarrasingly bad portrayals of female characters. However, just because some shows came out before 1996 or aren't targeted at your gender doesn't make them irrelevant.

Good to know. Since you admit there is a problem, and that it is getting worse, we have nothing to worry about. It's like AA, the first step is admitting you have a problem.

[EDIT 6/14: Since when did I say it was getting worse? Way to completely sidestep the issue by putting words in my mouth Rolling Eyes ~Zalis]
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Andromeda



Joined: 28 Jul 2003
Posts: 119
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 4:25 pm Reply with quote
Quote:

There are a few exceptions to this rule. The heroinesof anime that I've never seen break down and cry include Motoko Kusanagi from 'Ghost in the Shell' (avery prime example), Melissa Mao from 'Full MetalPanic!', and Integra from 'Hellsing' (Okay, so she shed a tear in the TV series, but that was while she was mentally reconnecting to her childhood, a time when she was more emotionally open, so I wouldn't count that). If there are any other animes where the heroines are not so emotionally vulnerable, not too much else comes to mind.


Ooh! Yes! I love a challenge!

*Lina Inverse, from The Slayers which by the way, is still considered a bit of a modern anime classic. Sure, she gets a little upset if people point out her "flat" chest and whatnot, but her reaction to this is usually to just get pissy, not cry about it. Granted, this is because she's a bit egotistical and self-absorbed, but (especially in the Japanese audio; the dub voice is... serviceable, but a little grating compared to the disturbingly cute voice given to her by Megumi Hayashibara) she still comes off as somewhat charming. And, she's both tough and smart; she messes around with dark magics all the time while hardly blinking an eye, faces down dragons with a cheerful, confident gusto, and just overall is very capable, confident, and self-reliant.

*Some of the gals from Azumanga Daioh. Tomo's probably the best example; anybody who can combine that much self-confident gusto for life with the ability to actually enjoy riding in the Yukarimobile, is one confident, bold, fearless chick. She may not be the brightest bulb in the box, but she knows how enjoy life and is quite clearly happy. Not to mention that as whiney as she is, Yukari's actually pretty tough and confident, even if she's moody. That is, she doesn't really cry over spilt milk; she might whine to get her way, and she might get pissy, but in the end, she's a confident woman. And then there's Ayumi (aka Osaka), who is usually too busy spacing out or making puns to cry over nothing. And Yomi? She may fret a little over her weight, but she's pretty tough. Hell, she'd have to be, she's best friends with Tomo!

*Several of the Senshi from Sailor Moon. Obviously I'm not talking about the titular character, who is rather squishy-hearted. I'm talking more along the lines of Setsuna (Sailor Pluto), the quiet, strong , powerful woman who can control the flow of time; Haruka (Sailor Uranus), the delightfully flirtatious cross-dresser who drives racecars and faces down monsters with combination of a badass martial arts and superpowers on a daily basis, who only broke down when her partner/lover had her soul ripped out, who actually managed to outsmart and almost beat Galaxia by pretending to turn on her friends without shedding a single tear I might add, all because she thought it would help save the world and was that devoted to her duty; Michiru (Sailor Neptune), who as sensitive as she may be, was still tough enough to go it alone as a superhero for a long while, and who I can't recall ever seeing break down emotionally at all; even Sailor Saturn whose physcially weak civilian form only proved to mask a powerful second persona with eerily powerful knowledge and the ability to destroy an entire planet, if necessary - who never cries. These women went through a hell of a lot, and you don't often, if ever, see them do much more than look upset, if that much.

*Matsuya from Excel Saga. The woman is tough as nails, doesn't take any crap from anyone, and is probably the only capable person in the entire series.

And you know, considering that EVERYONE (men included!) had traumatic experiences and serious issues in Evangelion, why not just admit that, all things considered and despite their issues, Misato Katsuragi (capable of switching from drunken slut in her off hours to smart, tough, creative battle strategist in a blink of an eye), Ritsuko Akagi (tough, smart, capable, professional, and wonderfully manipulative), and hell, even Asuka Langley (considering the hellish childhood she went through, becoming a volatile teenager is not surprising. She nonetheless graduated college by the time she was 14, and became one of the most enthusiastic pilots for the EVA units) and Rei Ayanami (fairly unflappable)... are all actually pretty much what you're talking about there being a lack of in anime?


-Andromeda
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pat_payne



Joined: 28 Jul 2006
Posts: 179
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 5:14 pm Reply with quote
Umm...you DO realize the last post in this thread was 'round Christmas, right? I may like to carry an argument myself, but this is a little much too much to dredge up threads from months ago...
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