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EP. REVIEW: Classroom of the Elite


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Gina Szanboti



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 11306
PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 6:34 pm Reply with quote
mangamuscle wrote:
What I tried to say is that in the west students working at the university level is due to sheer necessity to pay for tuition, lodging or food, given a chance they would prefer to use that time to story and/or relax.

Students that don't have to work for the money will often be working in internships or other types of jobs (paid or not) related to their field of study, because it looks good on their applications to professional or graduate schools (or more rarely, because they want to learn as much as they can because they really love it). For example, you pretty much can't get into veterinary school anymore without having worked for a vet.
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Desa



Joined: 07 Mar 2015
Posts: 285
PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 11:07 am Reply with quote
It is understandably tempting to think like Horikita, but her view that "destined" failures should just drop out and stop bringing down the rest of the class is a naive and narrow-minded view that does not reflect an understanding of how society at large really works. It is similar to how many view "problem neighborhoods" and how we would all be better off if we just isolate them or make them "go away", but this only leads to other problems like gentrification, housing discrimination, and gerrymandering. These issues ultimately affect society as a whole.

When a student fails, it is easier to think of it as an individual failure, an isolated incident, rather than it being symptomatic of a failure in the system. There is a short video on addiction which excellently illustrates this distinction. Having a larger number of successful students will have greater benefits in the long-term than simply having fewer failing students, with an increase in morale being a particularly important benefit that often results in a positive feedback cycle.


Also, the end card for ep 2 featured the quote:
"Man is an animal that makes bargains: no other animal does this, - no dog exchanges bones with another."

Clearly whoever wrote this hasn't been keeping up to date with animal behavioral studies.
Experiments with chimpanzees, certain monkeys, crows, ravens, and certain penguins have shown that concepts such as "money", "gambling", "prostitution", "monogamy", "cheating", "mutual cooperation", "altruism", and more interestingly, "fairness" are not at all exclusive to humans.

Money, gambling, and prostitution among animals:
http://www.zmescience.com/research/how-scientists-tught-monkeys-the-concept-of-money-not-long-after-the-first-prostitute-monkey-appeared/

Here's an example of cooperation, mutual benefits, and cheating:
http://www.iflscience.com/plants-and-animals/ravens-can-spot-cheater-and-dont-it/

Relating to a sense of fairness and equity:
http://theconversation.com/animals-know-when-they-are-being-treated-unfairly-and-they-dont-like-it-73152

Fun trivia alert! In terms of promiscuity and sexual exploration, bonobos have us beat. Everything from homosexuality to incest, you name it, a bonobo's probably done it:
https://weirdimals.wordpress.com/2010/01/21/bonobo-2/


Observing animal behavior can give deeper insight into human behavior. Many humans like to think that we're special, but nature has shown that this is not really the case. Quite possibly the only thing that truly separates humans from other animals is the fact that we ask questions, particularly questions pertaining to our own existence, nature, and origins.
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Yttrbio
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Joined: 09 Jun 2011
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 11:19 am Reply with quote
Desa wrote:
Also, the end card for ep 2 featured the quote:
"Man is an animal that makes bargains: no other animal does this, - no dog exchanges bones with another."

Clearly whoever wrote this hasn't been keeping up to date with animal behavioral studies.
"Whoever wrote this" was Adam Smith. Maybe you've heard of him. Dead for a few centuries. Champion of the economic system that drove America to its economic position in the world. Maybe he can be forgiven for using a linguistic flourish that doesn't take into account the studies that didn't exist when he was alive.
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Desa



Joined: 07 Mar 2015
Posts: 285
PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 12:49 pm Reply with quote
Yttrbio wrote:
"Whoever wrote this" was Adam Smith. Maybe you've heard of him. Dead for a few centuries. Champion of the economic system that drove America to its economic position in the world. Maybe he can be forgiven for using a linguistic flourish that doesn't take into account the studies that didn't exist when he was alive.

True. But this is a 2017 anime, and whoever decided to use that quote is certainly very much alive and capable of using the internet. If the anime was trying to make a point by using that quote, that point is invalidated because the quote is factually inaccurate.
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mangamuscle



Joined: 23 Apr 2006
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Location: Mexico
PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 2:28 pm Reply with quote
Desa wrote:
True. But this is a 2017 anime, and whoever decided to use that quote is certainly very much alive and capable of using the internet. If the anime was trying to make a point by using that quote, that point is invalidated because the quote is factually inaccurate.


Mhh, the quote does not say that other animals are dumb, it simply states that animals not called homo sapiens don't make bargains (i.e. exchanging bones). here is the definition:

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/bargain

Oh, and you example of monkey prostitution only further proves the point as scientist *taught* monkey the concept of money, they did not developed it by themselves so it remains a human concept.
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Yttrbio
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Joined: 09 Jun 2011
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 2:47 pm Reply with quote
Desa wrote:
True. But this is a 2017 anime, and whoever decided to use that quote is certainly very much alive and capable of using the internet. If the anime was trying to make a point by using that quote, that point is invalidated because the quote is factually inaccurate.
I think you're misunderstanding how quoting famous people works. You quote Adam Smith not to teach biology, but to illustrate a philosophical point of view.
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zrnzle500



Joined: 04 Oct 2014
Posts: 3767
PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 4:16 pm Reply with quote
Actually I liked Kushida's turn, but I do like that kind of character that acts gregarious and almost naively kind but is actually cynical and manipulative to the point of being domineering (well at least the female ones). Though I think you would need more than finger prints on a shirt and blazer to substantiate rape charges, in a court of law at least.

Also their teacher is definitely in the running for worst teacher. In addition to letting her students do whatever and then punish them a month later (without telling them what for) and pointedly telling them the school had abandoned them (and by extension her, though that was apparent from her attitude towards the students anyways), she accepts bribes from the students. Are they hiring random sociopaths off the street to teach the D classes?
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mangamuscle



Joined: 23 Apr 2006
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Location: Mexico
PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 4:21 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
I'd also be more likely to lend the show some rope on Ayanokiji's characterization if the Kushida reveal weren't handled so poorly.


Quote:
but when that melodrama undercuts my ability to care about the show's cast, I start to tune out.


I get the feeling that Nick has a profuse distaste of manipulators at large. Because the reveal at the end of the episode didn't felt to me like bad writing to me. Yes, it is ridiculous to try to get fingerprints out of clothing as having the police believe there was rape without any fluids from the male culprit, that is what a teenager between a rock and a hard place will make up in the nick of time to try to turn the tables when their secret has been discovered.

Also, I do not see atm Ayanokoji as the perfect manipulator, he failed last episode to get the three stooges to study, getting the exams was a desperate measure (that in a decent school would have been them expelled, think about it, he received the exams in his smartphone, that no doubt is being monitored by the school, who no doubt own the wifi and/or 3g/ 4g antenna's used by the phones) that would acomplish nothing if the teachers simply changed the questions or have at least five different tests and it was more than desperate to ask to buy one point for Sudo, since the teacher could have simply answered "Yeah, I can sell you one point but you can't pay the price nor you are any longer part of this school".

p.s. I think we can dismiss Kushida's torpedo chest as "lecherous art department decision" since I think it is clear she uses push ups bra on purpose to get maximum attention from her fellow classmates (and it works, that poor third grade D classmate lowered his price every time he looked forward)..
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DeTroyes



Joined: 30 May 2016
Posts: 520
PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 6:45 pm Reply with quote
Episode 3 Random Thoughts

Ok, I actually didn’t expect Kushida to be so two-faced, but in retrospect I probably should have. I was actually expecting more of a Yukino-Hachiman-Yui dynamic between Horikita-Ayanokoji-Kushida, so that probably blinded me a little. But Ayanokuji now has a much better idea who Kushida is, and frankly, I think he’s better at manipulating people than she is. Ayanokuji = mini-Varys.

The question now, of course, is why he’s chosen to be a shadow master rather than one of the ones at the front. Based on what has already been said, it seems likely that he manipulated his grades specifically so that he would wind up in Class D. But why remains a mystery. But I don't expect his status as the "power behind the throne" to go unnoticed for very long; Horikita, Kushida, and their teacher all certainly know, and the rest of the class aren't as dumb as they sometimes act.

And of course, it also seems likely that Horikita and Ayanokoji will wind up together, despite the inevitable (and probably ruthless) interference from Kushida. Which I frankly heartily endorse; I always like it when the MC guy chooses the smart girl. Frankly, I suspect Kushida lost whatever chance she had with Ayanokoji when she blackmailed him, tho perhaps she hasn’t quite realized it yet.

Again, a series I had no prior knowledge of turns out be a big winner in my book. Looking forward to where this goes.

Rating: 4.0/5
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Number 6



Joined: 16 Sep 2016
Posts: 46
PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 8:30 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
"but asking us to follow a person who's perfect because “it'll make for a great reveal down the line” is not the most compelling storytelling."


I am following the protagonist because he is cool, collected, smart and he knows how to defend himself. Sure, to see what he is planning and what will be the big reveal down the line is something to look forward to, but I am just enjoying the ride and I'm liking it so far. I guess the storytelling isn't enough to satisfy Nick.
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Desa



Joined: 07 Mar 2015
Posts: 285
PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 11:09 pm Reply with quote
mangamuscle wrote:
Mhh, the quote does not say that other animals are dumb, it simply states that animals not called homo sapiens don't make bargains (i.e. exchanging bones). here is the definition:

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/bargain

Oh, and you example of monkey prostitution only further proves the point as scientist *taught* monkey the concept of money, they did not developed it by themselves so it remains a human concept.

I didn't say (or imply) anything about animals being dumb either. Also, you want to talk about definitions but did you even read the text you've linked to? There's clearly an entry which states:
Quote:
an agreement between parties settling what each shall give and take or perform and receive in a transaction

This is exactly what the monkeys are doing with their money.
Yes they were taught the concept of money, but what human was born knowing what a store of value is? We all learn from an external source. The more important part is that the monkeys understand what money represents and how to use it beyond a simple trained gesture like with dogs. It goes much deeper than that, and when you take an economist's view of the Yale study you see that the introduction of money produces the same underlying behaviors and irrationalities in monkeys as with humans, such as "law of Demand", "rule of utility maximization" and "loss averse behavior", indicating a biological factor that extends beyond humans.

And it's not just monkeys, Adélie penguins have been known to trade pebbles for sex all on their own, without human intervention, further evidence that money and the exchange of items for goods and services is not strictly a human concept.


Yttrbio wrote:
I think you're misunderstanding how quoting famous people works. You quote Adam Smith not to teach biology, but to illustrate a philosophical point of view.

The quote was literally about man making bargains. In this case, it was exchanging points for old exam copies, or points for a passing grade. Very simple exchanges. Care to explain where the deeper philosophy is or are you just grasping at straws here?
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zrnzle500



Joined: 04 Oct 2014
Posts: 3767
PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 11:36 pm Reply with quote
^They're just using quotes from historical figures that describe the episode. Since by your own admission it does do that, then the factual inaccuracy of the quote (which has become apparent centuries after it was written) does not invalidate that. I don't see how they could edit it to make it more in line with current research in a non awkward way, putting aside the fact that editing it in such a fashion would mean they would cease to be quotes anymore. Either you chop it down to the fairly trivial "Man is an Animal that Makes Bargains" or you add on *but no they totally do. I have no issue if you want to be pedantic and point out that a centuries old quote is not in keeping with current research, but don't put it on the writers, original or otherwise. Just point it out and move on.
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mangamuscle



Joined: 23 Apr 2006
Posts: 2658
Location: Mexico
PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 1:37 am Reply with quote
Desa wrote:
Yes they were taught the concept of money, but what human was born knowing what a store of value is?


Said monkeys live in an artificial (man made) habitat, so it still up in the air if said monkeys were to return to their natural habitat, would they keep using money or would they drop it just like you would toss your ipad as soon as it the battery runs out if you were living in the wild? My bet is that if their society and/or brain was complex enough to use money, they would have already invented it as other tools they deem useful. Elephants have been trained to paint but no record of them doing it in the wild exist.

Furthermore, the original quote uses the word "bargain" not "sale", which implies some price haggling as we saw in this week episode where the third year student was forced to lower his price on several occasions. Same thing happened when the teacher raised the prize for Sudo's point.

Quote:
And it's not just monkeys, Adélie penguins have been known to trade pebbles for sex all on their own


By their own admission the study is still inconclusive.

Quote:
The quote was literally about man making bargains. In this case, it was exchanging points for old exam copies, or points for a passing grade. Very simple exchanges. Care to explain where the deeper philosophy is or are you just grasping at straws here?


When monkeys, dogs or penguins understand the concepts of points, exams or grades you might call them "very simple exchanges" and then the comment would have something to do with your outcry for not including animals as capable of that kind of negotiations.
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Melicans



Joined: 01 Feb 2012
Posts: 620
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 9:46 pm Reply with quote
This is in no way a criticism of Nick, because I do agree with some of the detractions he raised for episode 3, but I do wonder if perhaps part of the reason why this episode ranked so badly with him is because of his fondness for SNAFU? He (and others in the preview guide) compared the dynamic of the apparent main 3 characters with that of SNAFU as there were quite obvious parallels with Hachiman, Yukino, and Yui. The reveal at the end of the episode that Kushida is two-faced and manipulative, and clearly not the same kind of character as Yui despite her public appearances is what seems to have been received most negatively by him, so I do wonder if the reason he found it so jarring/out of place is because it upsets the kind of relationship between the trio that he may have been expecting/hoping for.

Again, not a criticism (and definitely not intended to be any kind of attack on his reviewing style, so I hope it is not construed that way). I just wonder if this is partly the reason why the episode ranked so poorly with him.
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DeTroyes



Joined: 30 May 2016
Posts: 520
PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 2:40 pm Reply with quote
Melicans wrote:
This is in no way a criticism of Nick, because I do agree with some of the detractions he raised for episode 3, but I do wonder if perhaps part of the reason why this episode ranked so badly with him is because of his fondness for SNAFU? He (and others in the preview guide) compared the dynamic of the apparent main 3 characters with that of SNAFU as there were quite obvious parallels with Hachiman, Yukino, and Yui. The reveal at the end of the episode that Kushida is two-faced and manipulative, and clearly not the same kind of character as Yui despite her public appearances is what seems to have been received most negatively by him, so I do wonder if the reason he found it so jarring/out of place is because it upsets the kind of relationship between the trio that he may have been expecting/hoping for.

Again, not a criticism (and definitely not intended to be any kind of attack on his reviewing style, so I hope it is not construed that way). I just wonder if this is partly the reason why the episode ranked so poorly with him.


I can't speak for the reviewer or anyone else, but for myself (being one of the people who initially bought into the SNAFU comparison) I can say that the Kushida revelation didn't in any way dampen my enjoyment for the episode. It did catch me off guard, but I don't think that was a particularly bad thing because I like it when a series goes against my expectations.
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