Forum - View topicEP. REVIEW: Made in Abyss
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Joshua Zarate
Posts: 2061 |
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^^No matter what happens in this thread from here on out, I just want to say that the person above me and their statements here bring up good points. As this whole thread has gotten a bit rocky, I didn't think that much on the sexual stuff in this show (I'm not reading/talking about the manga) nor did I think it got in the way of my enjoyment of the show. I simply thought that this episode and the anime as a whole have been pretty fantastic in my eyes. I personally believe that nothing shown in the show so far has been completely unnecessary and don't add to the show in one way or another. Quite the opposite actually. Anyway, I'll just wait for the next episode to come out and won't disrupt anymore of this discussion until then.
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Agent355
 Posts: 5113 Location: Crackberry in hand, thumbs at the ready... |
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There are many legitimate reasons why people react differently to violence and sex in fiction, but I think one big reason is *because* sex is murky, and we, as humans, can't always agree on when sex is good, normal, healthy and when it is damaging and harmful. Most people agree that almost all violence is bad in real life. But laws and mores around sex are always changing--when is the age of consent? What constitutes consent? If a young teenager acts sexually towards an adult, does that make it ok for the adult to have sex with the teen? There are so many questions and uncertainties, and its especially contentious across cultures--for example, most people in America will agree that forcing a girl under 18 to get married against her will because her parents want her to is *not* ok (even though many state laws still don't reflect that), but if you asked that question in any number of other places, you will find people who will argue that its a legitimate cultural practice, and their are cultures who will even arrange marriages for girls as young as 9. One thing people tend to universally agree on is that it is harmful to have sex with children who haven't reached puberty yet, and that's why people get so up in arms when there is even a whiff of sexualizing minors, even in a fictional work. Many people use that as an absolute line because it bothers them that others may not see it as bad, recognize how harmful it is, or make light of it in general. |
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Gina Szanboti
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Perhaps, but what they still don't universally agree on is what constitutes "a whiff," and that too changes over time. See Toddlers and Tiaras and the Coppertone Girl. This is really eye-of-the-beholder territory. |
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Agent355
Posts: 5113 Location: Crackberry in hand, thumbs at the ready... |
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^Yes, but it's very clear in this case that the *author's intent is sexual*, which is why it bothers people so much and is being complained about more than, say, a magical girl transformation sequence in a kid's anime, or most bath scenes. In this show's case, you can argue that knowing the intent of the artist is making people more uncomfortable than other cases, and it's why people are complaining more about it than they do the violence.
And people *know* it's the artist's intent because of the way it keeps coming up in the work, and the little fetish asides that accompany the nudity/discussion of nudity (a real little kid would think a reference to urine would be just about gross bodily functions, not sexual intent, as Nanachi implied and Reg reacted in the latest episode). |
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ChibiKangaroo
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No, it's not. I've seen "sexual" in anime. This is not sexual. Hinting at sexuality in a mostly innocent manner? Yea, but this is not "sexual" as in lewd or titillating content. I'll put it this way. If Ithea from SukaSuka was in there constantly asking if anyone wanted to bone the loli/shotas, then it would be "very clear" that it was sexual. |
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18187 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Wow, that shot from the manga is a lot more extreme. But it's not in the anime, unless I missed something. |
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Gina Szanboti
Posts: 11349 |
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I can't speak for Japanese people, but I suspect in context that "bondage" tie in the manga would be viewed differently in Japan than in the West.
I'm certainly no expert, but that appears to me to be Hojōjutsu, a centuries old tying method for restraining prisoners in Japan, still in use by the police to some degree even today, and taught by a lot of martial arts schools around the world. I think Kinbaku ties are more ritualized and artistic and use different types of cords. I've seen this style of tying people up in countless anime that had not a lick of sexual innuendo in it. It's kind of like assuming handcuffs are automatically erotic regardless of context. Going solely by the anime (ignoring what the author's intent might have been), my impression of this society is that they don't really view children as different from adults just because they are children. What matters above all else is your whistle, which is not a direct sign of age, but rather denotes experience and accomplishment. A 5 year old with a blue whistle would be treated with the respect (or lack) due to any other blue whistle, were it possible for that child to endure the depths required. Punishments are harsh because the practical consequences of disobedience are harsher, even lethal. Not paying attention in class or going off alone somewhere may mean you end up as some monster's lunch. Punishments can be avoided by following the rules, so there is an element of agency most abused kids in our world lack, where the abuse is done in secret which adds to the shame, or the abuser keeps changing the rules to give them an excuse to abuse. So I don't find the kids' cavalier attitude to be off. It would be if those kids lived in our world, but they don't. They rightly fear this punishment, just as our world's kids fear the paddle or the belt, but I don't think it traumatizes them any more than the adults I've heard talk almost nostalgically about getting the belt when they were kids (again, I'm not advocating or approving of corporal punishment in the real world). It doesn't cause permanent injury and it's not a unique punishment that only "worthless" kids deserve. All the kids are in the same boat together. Being punished publicly is embarrassing whether it's as benign as detention or standing in a corner, or as harsh as being strung up naked (hell, whether or not your ropes were tied with knots could be an additional source of embarrassment for Japanese prisoners!). But as far as I can see, these kids don't seem to have the same degree of body consciousness as we think normal in our society, so the naked part seems more intended for discomfort (or not peeing on your clothes) than specifically shaming, though that doesn't mean they're not embarrassed. It also toughens them up for the pain and hardships they'll face in the Abyss. Since we don't have the Abyss to face, it's not a punishment or teaching method I'd approve of here, but it seems to work for them. |
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danpmss
 Posts: 766 |
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Nope, you did not. This whole page was toned down quite a bit in the anime, thankfully (it became a small part of a mere montage compilation). The position and rope usage is still in there almost as apparent though. |
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danpmss
Posts: 766 |
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Then there's @Gina Szanboti comment above.
She may be referring to 責め (seme, a kind of japanese torture involving ropes), in this case more specifically 吊縛 (tsubaku, the "suspension by ropes" torture), both which, alongside with bondage (the erotic interpretation of said torture), are all part of the already mentioned 捕縄術 (Hojōjutsu, the science/art of arresting a someone and binding them with a rope) in Japan. In the seme side of things, bare-skin is mostly a mandatory thing, as they would punish the people as much as possible, physically speaking, while said person was defenseless given the fact that the ropes would be immobilizing the individual almost completely. In the tsubaku however, the torture itself is made by suspending the person and inflicting lots of pain for being hung by the arms and torso for prolonged periods of time. Bondage, culturally known as 縛り (shibari, tying) and/or 緊縛 (kinbaku, tight binding) in Japanese, a.k.a. the erotic counterpart, is way more in line with Made in Abyss however, from what I could gather and understand: Mostly pioneered by Taiso Yoshitoshi and Seiu Itō, the bondage would use the elements of both seme and tsubaku (and many other experiments and kinds of binding, really) to also make the experience humiliatingly expositive to the person in question being sexually tortured. It's much more popular and known than Hojōjutsu as a whole nowadays, even in Japan. To the point of being considered by some an erotically punitive act separated from it (and very apparently, one of the author's kinks). I won't even enter in the "proper age for torture in Japan" territory in a given period of time (I could only find reports dating Edo at max, so anything before that would be kinda non-applicable), though it would just further confirm the point (subjects were to be adults, man or woman, at least in the documented cases I could find). EDIT: Now that I think about it, didn't Gintama made fun of this at a given time of its run with a specific sadomasochist character? I don't quite remember the context or the things they talked about it though. Last edited by danpmss on Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:50 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Pandsu
 Posts: 186 |
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Fair enough, I guess. While I still don't quite agree myself, as for me personally, fiction merely dampens my view of morals (as in things that are horrible are less bad in fiction, things that are slightly bad irl are okay in fiction, to me) since there's no victim, I at least understand better why the moral fluidity of the topic across cultures and people makes it more uncomfortable.
Which I can appreciate. I was half expecting to be ripped apart and for people to make it personal and act like I'm some kind of child rape apologist or something but instead we're having a civil, eye-opening discussion. Thank you for that. |
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danpmss
Posts: 766 |
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I also appreciate very much having this kind of polite (even if at times a bit heated) and informative discussion (especially when it comes to something I like, such as Made in Abyss), so the pleasure is all mine for being part of it as well 
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James_Beckett
ANN Reviewer
 Posts: 274 Location: USA |
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Hey all! I'd just like to say that, aside from a couple of slightly heated responses, the past few days have offered a very reasonable and insightful discussion into the different ways people absorb and interact with Made in Abyss, and I've really gotten a lot out of reading what you have to say. Obviously, the ethical representation of children and their stories in anime is a complicated issue, and not one that is just going to be solved for everyone over the course of a single anime season. The fact that we can have a thoughtful and respectful debate here is one of the reasons I love writing for ANN.
As far as my depiction of this material is concerned, I would like to stress that at no point do I want to give the impression that I am judging people for enjoying the content, or for not necessarily having the concerns I do. I just feel that, as a critic, it is my responsibility to address Made in Abyss honestly and fairly, and to simply ignore what a lot of people might consider extremely problematic material would be disingenuous. I'm not making a judgement call one way or the other about anybody who doesn't have a problem with the treatment of nudity, bodily functions and sexuality in Made in Abyss; I just want to make sure people are informed after reading my reviews. For instance, my wife watches Made in Abyss with me every week, and she genuinely loves the show, but she does often feel very uncomfortable with how brazenly the show lingers on details of, say, how often things are inserted into children's rectums, and she clearly isn't the only one who feels that way. I also feel like that, despite none of the nudity feeling overtly sexualized, it is nevertheless frequent and conspicuous enough to be distracting in the very least. All that being the case, I will mention it in my criticism of the show. If you disagree, or if you personally know that this kind of material would not affect your opinion of the material, that's one hundred percent okay. At no point should you feel as if I am personally attacking the values or opinions of ANN's readers. So long as those disagreements can lead to respectful discourse and the opportunity for multiple perspectives to be represented, that's all that matters to me. |
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Mad_Scientist
 SubscriberModerator  Posts: 3011 |
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It's about framing. Most people who have had a positive experience with the show don't think it's showing the violence to the viewers in a "hey, isn't this cool?" way. The violence is presented in the show as a threat, as something for the children to overcome or learn how to deal with the consequences of. The sexualization of the children in Made in Abyss isn't presented that way. There's not a villain or force sexualizing them that the story presents as a threat. In the manga, it's clearly done for titillation, and thus presented completely differently. In the anime, it's less clear, but still uncomfortable, still possibly done for titillation, or just as a joke. And I think that if the violence and horror of Made in Abyss was presented as a joke or for titillation, people would have the same issues with it they do with the sexualization. It's not violence vs sex that matters, but the details of these specific instances of violence vs sex that matter. |
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ChibiKangaroo
Posts: 2941 |
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Personally, I get why some people are made a little uncomfortable about some of the content, but I do feel like there is sometimes a bit of hypocrisy when it comes to such things. Here things are presented in a way that is pretty mild or at most hinting at sexuality in a more or less innocent manner and there is a strong reaction from some. Yet, when we see the completely overt, explicit sexual violence in some other shows there is a ho hum reaction. Like in Kill la Kill a guy gets anal raped on screen in a totally crude, totally over the top manner that was really kinda gross and offensive, and it's played up like some big fun thing, a guy getting violently raped. I mean, that show was quite liberal with the rape scenes, to the extent I would almost expect the author has a rape fetish, yet everyone loves Kill la Kill. I mentioned Maria the Virgin Witch before, but similarly, there was very violent, very forcible rape where the MC gets literally bloodied up with black and blue bruises on her face (and her rapist even gets a nice little redemption thing too, yay?), as well as an actual pedophile trying to force himself upon her underage looking familiar and again, it gets pushed to the side. I think there were some people who complained about that stuff but I feel like it was glossed over in the reviews to be honest. So I am more skeptical of criticism here when we don't have such extreme imagery being thrust upon our tender eyeballs. Though, to be fair I am not really referring to James. I think he's been mostly even handed here.
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zrnzle500
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@ChibiKangaroo I don't think that reviewers and users are so disregarding of sexual violence as you claim. Most such scenes that I've seen mentioned on this site receive strong criticism (such as [spoilers just in case] spoiler[SAO's second season, VVV, Gate's second season, and especially Cross Ange]), with the exception being where the consensus was that it was tastefully done, such as with Maria the Virgin Witch. I've not seen the show in years so I went to the review to see what the critical response was from both reviewer and users. Far from being glossed over, the reviewer seemed to me to fairly thoroughly address the issue across at least two reviews (and if you don't want to take my word for it here are the reviews for episodes 8 and especially 9). There did seem to be a fairly thorough discussion over at least four pages (albeit among other topics) starting around here and ending around here. I am only posting this so that people might come to their own conclusions about the critical response to sexual violence on this site from both reviewers and users, and I don't intend to discuss that any further.
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