Forum - View topicJūni Taisen: Zodiac War (TV).
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Blood-
 Bargain Hunter Posts: 23770 |
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I liked episode 10. It was cool seeing the previous interaction between Ox and Tiger and how it influenced her. I didn't think biting off your own tongue would kill you instantly, but apparently it did the trick for Rabbit. Ox is toast but at least we may finally get to find out what Rat's deal is.
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Harleyquin
Posts: 2842 |
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#11
Since the Ox is fairly one-dimensional, the fun of this episode is seeing how the Rat succeeds in pulling off what the namesake animal in the original fable did and claiming the reward by letting the Ox to most of his work for him. I must admit, you couldn't ask for a more Deus Ex Machina ability than the Rat's, but it worked out (in a fashion). I wondered why the Rat never used his weapon (well he tried to in this episode but unsuccessfully and he quickly backtracked anyway) in the OP stills. Now I know what the light show stood for. Considering how うじゃうじゃ is onomatopoeia for the writhing of numerous insects or small animals, it's fitting to describe the Rat's method of killing as "death by a thousand nibbles". If it's just him rather than the traditional plague of rats, he can reset again and again until he finally finds the right way out which is the closest thing there is to a brute force win by sheer numbers. The episode even addressed what is a common misconception amongst the "experts" on the Zodiac tale. Although Vietnam's version of the Zodiac substitutes the cat for one of the animals which isn't native to its lands, the Tiger was always in from the start and as the Rat correctly points out it is in the same genus as the domestic house cat. 99 deaths with this series ending being the 100th route in which he succeeds, it's no wonder the final episode title makes no mention of Rats at all and focuses on his multiple unsuccessful attempts. Since he's died so often and is more or less narcoleptic as a result of his ability, what is his Grand Wish from winning the tournament? |
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DuskyPredator
 Posts: 15462 Location: Brisbane, Australia |
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So we are talking about genus now in terms of ancient legends? A cat was included in many versions of the legend, and with a distinct difference considered for a cat and tiger. Dragons are not even real. Regardless, it was sort of glorious acknowledgment showing that your dismissal of me bring it up was petty on your part. The cat as a separate entity was brought up, and even compare to the rat. I had to deal with your condescending attitude that I did not know what I was talking about because of where I am from, and would not be taken into account. |
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter Posts: 23770 |
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DP: 1, Harleyquin: big, fat 0. Congratulations, DP, on your glorious victory! If this thread was a Zodiac War, you would be a Rat and Harleyquin would be a... Boar.
In any case, the mystery of why the warriors had the sense they'd met Rat before is finally solved. And yes, I'm curious as to what Rat's wish will be. I have to say that Dead Bunny's last gambit was particularly stomach turning and I enjoyed how it was actually Tiger's contribution that lead to 100th Rat's victory. |
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Harleyquin
Posts: 2842 |
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All talk amounting to hot air as always. The back-up continues his usual habit of back-seat moderating and will happily pile it on if he thinks he can get away with it. Not surprising since I've been the victim of this treatment since the first day I joined this forum and I don't expect anything different from the likes of him. https://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-cn/生肖 Oldest record of the Zodiac didn't have the Dragon, so a worm took its place. Tiger is in it from the start, the differences are in the Dragon and Snake positions as well placing differences for the later animals. Qin dynasty is 221BC to 207BC and the Daoist hierarchy with the Jade Emperor isn't fully established yet. Original text: 于1970年代出土的秦代文献《睡虎地秦简》和《放马滩秦简》，其中已用动物与地支相配，和如今的生肖差别很小，大部分的动物都已经相同。如放马滩秦简甲种《盗者篇》所载生肖顺序为：鼠、牛、虎、兔、虫、蛇、马、羊、猴、鸡、犬、豕；《睡虎地秦简》所载生肖顺序为鼠、牛、虎、兔、（缺文）、鹿、马、羊、猿、雉、老羊、豕。 在早期提到十二生肖的文献中与现今版本略有不同，例如：龙不存在，其位置由虫代替。 Earliest record of the Zodiac with the order and animals as they are recognised today: 东汉王充（公元27-97年）在公元1世纪期间所著《论衡》也有十二生肖。虽然没有明白的表示顺序，我们可以依据内文的关系推论出：子鼠、丑牛、寅虎、卯兔、辰龙、巳蛇、午马、未羊、申猴、酉鸡、戌狗、亥猪等顺序。 That's AD27-97 for the earliest record, predating the earliest missions by Chinese Buddhists to India. As for the "multiple legends of the Zodiac tale" assertion which I argued against but was ignored anyway, the footnote at the end: 有民间神话传说用“鼠骗猫”的说法来解释这个问题，但真正的原因是因为中国古时无猫，猫原产于埃及，何时传入中国已不可考，民间传说则由唐三藏从印度带回(其实是汉朝)。所以猫在传入中国以前，中国的十二生肖早就排完成定论了。而且，十二生肖中已经有了老虎这只大猫，所以小猫就不用值班了。因此中国的十二生肖没有猫，而越南的十二生肖当中把兔改了猫。 The last sentence more or less repeats what the Rat said to Duodecuple in this episode. No rabbits native to Vietnam, so their version of the Zodiac uses the cat instead. In addition, cats being used as predators against field mice is a later innovation amongst the Chinese. It was Dogs and hunting hounds which did the job in the earliest days. Duodecuple taking on the Jade Emperor's role in the original tale is a given, but as noted earlier the earliest Zodiac records with their use of the Tiger predate his emergence in popular Chinese consciousness by a few centuries. I've seen the legend told with Buddha instead but the role is exactly the same. The Japanese Zodiac only differs from the original Chinese one in two respects: the mountain goat in the Chinese version is replaced by the wool-bearing sheep (same character but interpreted differently) while the domestic pig in the Chinese version is interpreted as a Boar by the Japanese (in line with how they interpret the same character today). There's no difference in any other way and it's not surprising Nishio Ishin's take on the Zodiac battle trope hasn't strayed much if at all from what East Asian viewers were expecting. I said it before and was criticised for it, but viewers from countries who don't care about the Eastern Zodiac aren't going to be watching this expecting the greatest story ever told, it's the action scenes (and the gruesome aftermaths like episode 11) which are the main draw for this segment. I'm repeating the same information I gave in an earliest post, but I expect the administrators won't care since someone is going to report this anyway. |
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter Posts: 23770 |
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I'll need your street address so that the waaaaah!-bulance can be sent to the right place. |
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DuskyPredator
Posts: 15462 Location: Brisbane, Australia |
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And I have tried to make a point that I don't even care how much extra insight you give, pulling crap like you deciding what non Asian viewers are going to get out of something is not cool. You think I really can't get something out of the multiple individual stories, or the musings on the story of the rat riding ox's back, and it somewhat repeated in the show? You think I cannot follow the somewhat ironic turn that the rat's power works somewhat like a Schrödinger's cat, a cat which is an animal that has a place in the story Japanese audiences might be familiar. If anything it you placing importance on other versions of the tale that is somewhat arrogant. I don't want to hear being told that I cannot enjoy things because of where I am, up to and including Nishio Ishin's work. I have watched all of the Monogatari series animated, when they were released as I was able, and to the best of my ability followed it's different levels, and analysed them. Bakemonogatari, Nisemonogatari, Nekomonogatari (Black and White), Kabukimonogatari, Otorimonogatari, Onimonogatari, Koimonogatari, Hanamonogatari, Tsukimonogatari, Owarimonogatari I, Koyomimonogatari, Owarimonogatari II, and the Kizumonogatari movies. I have the posts in the archives of this site to show my posting of and attempt to understand the different levels from when it was released. And was not just acting out appreciation of action scenes and bloody messes, or boobs. I have taken his work pretty seriously, so stop looking down on me because of your preconceived notions. I understand that you want to show that you have a special appreciation, and some of your pride in where you come from. But don't do that by pushing someone else down, that is not a cool way to act. I am not pushing you down in Ancient Magus' Bride about myself having Irish ancestry so that I should have a special appreciation of classic faeries. Honestly some of the stuff you have brought up in this discussion thread is interesting, I just wish that you would do it without trying to put down. To bring another current airing anime, it is sort of like parts of in Elegant Youkai Apartment, a girl tries to get recognition for how great she is by schooling others on how wrong they are about things like about English, and then gets more frustrated when people get angry at her. While it is not much about what she is saying, but how she is saying it in trying to put others down in making them look lesser, when really what she knows could be of help if she showed a bit of consideration. It does not make you bad, but it does not make you a victim either people bark back at you. And you really should not even take things Blood- says too personally either, he simply has the habit of going off at anyone who shows signs of arrogance, he rarely goes off at me because I tend to be pretty low self-esteem, even then he goes off at me if he thinks I am approving of something he finds is not good. But if you also paid attention you would see that he actually enjoyed a lot of stuff that you have added, so cool it on acting as if everyone is bullying you. Oh, and on the animal thing. I was reading it somewhere, but I cannot find it right now. Apparently the older cases with the added in the Zodiac, came from not some sort of domestic cat, but a type of small wild cat that is apparently instinct now. Although, most pop-culture just makes it the modern cat. Sorry I can't find where the source was, I have been pretty exhausted lately, I think it was some built up stress which gave me pretty much crippling neck pain. |
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter Posts: 23770 |
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+1 to DP for the Yamamoto Elegant Yokai Apartment reference. Very good post, DP, and just to add to my own half-hearted attempt to lower the temperature of the thread let me reiterate what I have said in the past, Harleyquin: I genuinely enjoy and appreciate many of your contributions to threads you participate in. That's why I privately tried to encourage you to watch Inuyashiki (which sadly has kind of gone downhill). I also cut you some slack because I think to a certain extent the attitude you sometimes give off is more inadvertant than something that is deliberately calculated to irritate others. As the great American philosopher Rodney King once said...
...can't we all just get along? |
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Harleyquin
Posts: 2842 |
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That's rich coming from someone who claims someone is superior because he represents 1-3am whereas the other is 11pm-1am. Everybody, clap your hands! A hearty round of applause to the most shallow and facile attempt at a jibe this thread has seen to date. Wouldn't surprise me if the same person claimed all of the Pisces people on the planet had to bow down and hail those born under the Aries sign as their Lords and Masters. I've said my piece based on what I saw on this episode. For some reason people actually bothered reading what I post on this thread and have had an allergic reaction to it. No matter, it will all be forgotten over time. I won't forget the insincere attempts at reconciliation nor should I take anything seriously from dilettante readers on this forum henceforth. |
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter Posts: 23770 |
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Apparently, I will have to reassess my notion that you are not always deliberately an a-hole...
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DuskyPredator
Posts: 15462 Location: Brisbane, Australia |
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Why do you assume we are being insincere? And where do you get off calling people "dilettante"? You know that makes it sound like you are calling people stupid, right? I have tried to engage with you, tried to meet you half way and show some appreciation, because I am actually interested in that what different people can bring, but each time this is how you respond. Do you not know enough of how that is not how people are meant to interact, trying to make people sound like idiots. Hey, you know a lot of things, you know languages that I do not, and can find nuanced cultural bits that are just out of your reach, that is a way you are good as an addition to this forum. I don't have those things, and honestly I miss things at times. But something I have contributed to the forums of this site for quite some time are among things like analysing things that maybe no one even cares about enough to do so, I put out what I do consider a crazy theory but might be interesting, and I like to do character breakdowns as well as pull various themes together. Yet I also have my own knowledge on things that others might not know. It is different, but please show me the same respect I have showed you. Because otherwise, it is clear why you may be reported, and it has nothing to do with being jealous, them being overly sensitive, or trying to bully you, but how you are treating others. |
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Harleyquin
Posts: 2842 |
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#12
Having an innate talent like Nezumi doesn't necessarily give an individual happiness. As it turns out, the mental picture of someone who could search through a hundred different possibilities and their associated outcomes at once is quite an accurate one. It's so easy to back oneself into a mental cul-de-sac after acquiring the habit of mentally assessing profit and loss to self from each and every decision potentially available. Because he was so weak relative to all of the other combatants, I'm not surprised he was able to get them to talk since none of them saw him as a threat to withhold secrets from him. Even the Rabbit that no one really knew about turned out to have a wish (however twisted that sounded to those who fought him). Perhaps it was for the best as far as he was concerned, although it's possible that he could also have wished for a dream/ambition that others without his gift usually tend to possess. I don't think I've seen adaptations by this studio before, so if it's a debut work I'm looking forward to seeing what they can bring to the table in the future. I seriously doubt the novel's "sequel" relating to the inter-Zodiac wars is going to see the light of day though. |
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter Posts: 23770 |
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Around the time that Nezumi noted how painful it was to die 99 times and the despair it engendered I thought, "I bet his wish will be to forget." And whaddya know?
I normally try not to judge a show on what I wish it had been as opposed to what it was, but I can't help myself in this case. I would have been so ready for a stylish, action-filled battle royale show where there was no discernible pattern to whom would be killed next. For maximum impact, 2-cours would have been the preferred length, which would have given plenty of time to have elaborate battles and show strategies as well as have flashbacks to earlier parts of the participants lives. Alas, it was not to be. I don't regret watching this to its (pretty lame, imo) conclusion, but I don't see a rewatch of it in my future. |
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DuskyPredator
Posts: 15462 Location: Brisbane, Australia |
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To really get some sort of payoff I felt like there needed some twist that really made the following the zodiac order feel like worthwhile. The reveal of the rat's ability did not make up for it, the only I think I could fully think so would be if maybe the show had inconsistencies during the run that the revelation we were not watching a single timeline, and could really maybe throw out there the impact the rat could have. The last episode had a bit of that in switching between the different timelines. I guess it is somewhat an interesting choice of a wish, the erased the pain he had from the game, and removed his possible feelings of regret he might have from every other wish, but it kind of just feels like why have any of this at all. Can the rat even have superiority against the masses who are ignorant of the wars and battlefields, when his final conclusion is himself be ignorant?
It had some action moments, but enough to really create a splendour. Some of the stories were also interesting, with different lessons that could be gained from the different people, but did it even come down to anything? Boar fucked up her sister and got killed very quickly. Dog, as we learned took in a orphan girl, but got killed right after giving a gift to another girl. Rooster for once got a sense of selflessness and got quickly extinguished. Monkey had big plans to help and do good, got made into an evil puppet and I think must be the one responsible for creating this end that the Ox who did not seem to bad also lost. Sheep had his experience, but was worth nothing when he totally underestimated someone who took him out in a flash. Horse tried to make himself strong, but died pathetically alone. Snake had not chance, and dragon after biding his time accomplished nothing. Rabbit gets shown as just a psycho, no depth shown. Tiger maybe had the best at acknowledgment, but he did not actually recognise her and soon died. If there was a theme anywhere it would be in failure, but as opposed to say the common response in the importance in learning from favour, the show finished on just forgetting it, like for all the gloomy stuff he himself is just a piece of shit that he claimed others were. Could that have been the point, that teenagers can call the rest of the world out on things like their hypocrisy, but in the end they are just as much likely to make the same mistake? I know the author, and in comparison, it is just kind of nihilistic of a conclusion where a lot of his stuff can be even when there are some horrible implications, you can stand tall if you did everything you could to create a happy ending as much as possible, and face your own demons. That facing them is not the same thing as simply killing them, but dealing with any hard truths. There is room for a sort of poetry, but where I think that there might not have been anything of worth to the audience gained, I don't quite see the point, it is like a reset ending where we see no benefit. At the very least we maybe could have seen what forces happened to bet on the little rat, there must have been some sort of end benefit there, but if anything we are privy to is just an ending, one that says why even try. Some cool moments are enough? I kind of liked the OP, two of my favourite parts including bits like seeing the rabbit with his zombie army and throwing his weapon, but he is like the one character that got no backstory. I don't care much for psycho villains who have like nothing to explain them, that is unless it is a case that it is made kind of the point (The Joker), but I don't think that was it. Honestly I might have been more interested in their daily lives, like we see with the ED, and I think was prevalent with the monkey, but the snake and dragon's had me pretty uninterested in theirs. I give my rating of Decent (6/10), I didn't really lose my time. |
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter Posts: 23770 |
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For whatever reason, the full stupidity of the ending just hit me. So Rat entered the contest without having a wish thought out in advance. Then when he actually does win, his big wish is too forget everything that happened. In other words, his entire participation in the contest - from his point of view (and certainly from my point of view) - was utterly pointless. And what is going to happen to the girl that Dog was fostering who no longer has a guardian thanks to Rat's pointless participation?
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