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INTEREST: Vice Cancels YaoiCon Filming After Attendee Complaints


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DJStarstryker



Joined: 16 Jan 2010
Posts: 129
PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 6:54 pm Reply with quote
Well, about the privacy thing... In the era of live streaming and YouTube, you don't get that at cons anyway. I went to Anime Weekend Atlanta last weekend and the number of people carrying about cameras, either live streaming or recording for later YouTube use, was astounding. I tried very hard to avoid the cameras, but it was pretty much impossible.

Film crews at least tend to be easier to avoid than random Joe Schmoe with his small cell phone/GoPro/etc. Film crews have bigger equipment that's easier to spot. The random streamer/vlogger you don't notice until last second, if you notice them at all because your attention is elsewhere.
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ajr



Joined: 29 Nov 2010
Posts: 425
PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:18 pm Reply with quote
I don't read much/any yaoi, so it's not like I have a horse in this race, but a convention doesn't seem like the place to be if you're concerned about being associated with a particular hobby. I'm not familiar with how Vice Media documentaries tend to treat their subject material, but, if they were planning to cover it respectfully, this seems like a wasted opportunity for fans to promote their interest.
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Stuart Smith



Joined: 13 Jan 2013
Posts: 1097
PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:07 pm Reply with quote
Peebs wrote:

And you do realize that there are statutes in all the states in regards to taking pictures/video/live video feeds against the subject's wishes? Here in Illinois it is illegal to take my picture and/or a video of me unless I approve it. The exceptions to that are police officers, correctional centers, or a media crew with authorized access to a locker room and only for interviews. I know Yaoi Con is in California, but as progressive as they are, their laws may be different or more comprehensive than in Illinois. I have stopped people where I work from taking pictures because other patrons have not given their consent to those pictures. I also have not given consent to have my picture taken. We post that everywhere we can and they still don't listen.


In California it's perfectly legal to photograph people in public areas and spaces. It's only illegal if its an area someone has an expectance of privacy, like a bathroom or changing room.

-Stuart Smith
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crosswithyou



Joined: 15 Dec 2007
Posts: 2522
Location: Tokyo, Japan
PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:25 pm Reply with quote
I read the Facebook comments the other day and was curious why the staff kept saying that they weren't notified about Vice's filming until that day, ie. they didn't have a chance to say no before the announcement. Obviously someone high up on the chain of command (who thought this was a good idea) had to give Vice the OK in the first place though, right? I mean, I assume Vice couldn't just say, "Hey, we're stopping by your con to film," without first getting permission from the con organizer.

So while I don't doubt that the staff responding on FB may not have known ahead of time about the announcement, I question the usage of that as an excuse to offer attendees.
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LadyKuzunoha



Joined: 18 May 2011
Posts: 40
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:50 pm Reply with quote
DJStarstryker wrote:
Film crews at least tend to be easier to avoid than random Joe Schmoe with his small cell phone/GoPro/etc. Film crews have bigger equipment that's easier to spot. The random streamer/vlogger you don't notice until last second, if you notice them at all because your attention is elsewhere.


This is true, but Joe Schmoe's videos also don't usually garner as much online attention as Vice videos do. If you make an uncredited cameo in Joe Schmoe's video, the chance that you'll be seen and recognized in said video is much less than if that video were made by Vice.
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Samiamiam



Joined: 31 Jan 2017
Posts: 81
PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:53 pm Reply with quote
Kougeru wrote:
Quote:
Another commenter noted that the event's code of conduct on its official website states, "If you would like to take a picture with or of another attendee, always ask first and be respectful of their decision whether it is a yes or no." However, some people feel the staff's decision to allow filming had the potential to violate the code of conduct because they may have been unable to avoid being filmed.


I swear people really need to look up "privacy laws" before going to conventions. Unless the location bans photography outright, they have every right to film you as well. The "code of conduct" also means nothing. Laws trump that. In private locations open to the public (all anime conventions), you have every right to photograph/film anyone/anything unless the OWNER OF THE LOCATION (Not the Convention staff) says otherwise. Honestly, people have no right to even complain. I'm sure I'll get trashed on for stating this fact, but that's the law in the US. Photography/filming at anime conventions requires no permission.

In short, if you go to ANY anime convention, you need to ASSUME that you are going to be on camera. I understand the whole thing about people that haven't come out not wanting to be exposed by photos/film here, but again, when you go out in public like this, you have to assume you'll be on camera.


Do you honestly not see the difference in being in someones blog and being on a documentary thats going to be seen by potentionally hundreds of thousands of people?
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hinugundam



Joined: 09 Apr 2011
Posts: 45
Location: USA
PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 10:10 pm Reply with quote
I don't think that I've ever been to an anime convention without some media coverage. Usually local news are out photographing or even filming outside the convention or even in the entrance to the convention. Heck, one time they were filming for a cosplay reality show at an anime matsuri. I guess I'm saying it seems normal to me to see cameras at a convention.
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CCTakato



Joined: 24 Jul 2015
Posts: 471
PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:05 am Reply with quote
I think whether or not Vice's actions are legal is irrelevant to whether or not their actions are moral. I mean, if you want to be technical about the law, outing someone isn't a crime at all even without photographs but I think most decent people would consider it to be a terrible thing to do. The notion that Vice's actions should be defended because they weren't breaking any laws is poor reasoning that doesn't make much sense to me.
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katscradle



Joined: 05 Jan 2013
Posts: 346
PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:58 pm Reply with quote
DMI issued an apology yesterday.
https://twitter.com/yaoicon/status/916047296734703616

Not really sure why people are focusing on legality so much either. YaoiCon is also a badge restricted 18+ Con (though minors have been allowed with chaperones) that takes place at a hotel, which last time I checked hotels are private property and ballrooms were considered rented private spaces too. Good professional outlets know not only they may need permits and releases for the location but, also to apply for credentials and meet requirements of the organization involved. The US is a litigious society remember. So even when you are within the law it can still be troublesome to defend yourself. Regardless it feels like what is legal, moral, and ethical are getting conflated.

The other facet of this beyond the privacy concerns was the utter lack of planning and information from the con. If there had been a clear policy in place some attendees would not have been so concerned and outraged. Staff for YaoiCon had it sprung on them on Monday and then had to try and deal with the situation, a response which was in no way coordinated. The only people responding to concerned attendees and artists had no idea what exactly Vice’s plans were or, how they were handling consent forms etc. Apparently the Artists Alley head had to draft up a form on their own for the artists. Staff was originally going to wait until today (Friday) to get details too since that’s when Vice would be there, until people pointed out that was way too late because of their travel arrangements and reservations. Some people canceled before the announcement that Vice pulled out because there wasn’t even enough time to wait long to cancel reservations and not incur fees. The answers people kept getting were “avoid the cameras”. Then it’s up to the “the powers that be”. The DMI representative was en route to the con so their response was slower than Vice felt like at best a bad coincidence. Were they flying and had their phone off for about an hour? Otherwise you should have your phone on and hands free mode while driving. Being unavailable for something like 6 hours the week of a major event when that can be avoided would be unacceptable in many industries. People lose their jobs over things like this.

I just hope this incident doesn’t leave a lasting negative effect on the BL and YaoiCon community. This week was already bad for other reasons but, I’ve since had to listen to people saying homophobic stuff like “the gays are so dramatic, they ruin everything,” and see fans that were fine with the filming attacking others who were concerned, acting like those objecting made the community toxic. Yeah, people worried about their safety and livelihood are what make the BL community toxic. Sad
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Lord Oink



Joined: 06 Jul 2016
Posts: 478
PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 2:01 pm Reply with quote
CCTakato wrote:
I think whether or not Vice's actions are legal is irrelevant to whether or not their actions are moral.A


Moral is subjective, legality isn't.
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CCTakato



Joined: 24 Jul 2015
Posts: 471
PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 3:40 am Reply with quote
katscradle wrote:


I just hope this incident doesn’t leave a lasting negative effect on the BL and YaoiCon community. This week was already bad for other reasons but, I’ve since had to listen to people saying homophobic stuff like “the gays are so dramatic, they ruin everything,” and see fans that were fine with the filming attacking others who were concerned, acting like those objecting made the community toxic. Yeah, people worried about their safety and livelihood are what make the BL community toxic. Sad
Considering the subject matter of yaoi manga, blaming all the problems on actual gay people seems pretty hypocritical for straight yaoi fans to do.
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Ushio



Joined: 31 Jul 2005
Posts: 411
PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 3:47 pm Reply with quote
TasteyCookie wrote:
Sounds like people don't want to own up to their Yaoi! Wear it proud!

J/K of course. Filming people without their consent is never good.



You don't need consent. Plus it's not like there won't be plenty of people filming and putting it up on youtube anyway, not to mention the security camera's.

This is legal https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/04/for-arts-sake-photoing-neighbors-with-zoom-lens-not-a-privacy-invasion/
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Polycell



Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Posts: 4506
PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 9:00 am Reply with quote
That case doesn't even begin to apply: it's both about the laws of another state and, as quoted, wouldn't protect a commercial production.

What matters is what California law says about the power of owners/lessees to grant an expectation of privacy to people in an area where it's not automatically assumed. The code of conduct certainly seems to imply they mean to exercise that power if they have it(that it's controlled entry would bolster the case, to the best of my legal knowledge).
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Kadmos1



Joined: 08 May 2014
Posts: 10383
PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:45 am Reply with quote
katscradle wrote:
Not really sure why people are focusing on legality so much either. YaoiCon is also a badge restricted 18+ Con (though minors have been allowed with chaperones) that takes place at a hotel, which last time I checked hotels are private property and ballrooms were considered rented private spaces too.


I don't care how progressive someone might be, I think you should be at least 15 to be even allowed to be with an adult at such events.
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DeeeFoo



Joined: 18 Oct 2015
Posts: 5
PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 4:00 pm Reply with quote
hinugundam wrote:
I don't think that I've ever been to an anime convention without some media coverage. Usually local news are out photographing or even filming outside the convention or even in the entrance to the convention. Heck, one time they were filming for a cosplay reality show at an anime matsuri. I guess I'm saying it seems normal to me to see cameras at a convention.

I agree. I see cameras all the time at Anime Expo, and don't think anything of it. It's totally normal to see mass media coverage at such a huge event. Nobody else there seems to mind either, given the amount of cameras and news crews present.
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