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Desa wrote:

The current state of the anime industry is already unsustainable, but as I've already explained in another thread, it has nothing to do with copyright infringement nor does it have anything to do with whatever price is being set for streaming services. Crunchyroll could jack up their prices to $50 USD per month tomorrow, and if by some miracle they don't lose any customers it still wouldn't change the current state of exploitation. Not one bit. Those who understand this knows how the system really works. Everyone else is living in some comfortable fantasy bubble where logic like "it's those damn pirates that are ruining everthing!" somehow makes perfect sense.

I could write so much more about this, but I'll be derailing this thread.

Maybe it's not what you have in mind, but the the way I've been reading your posts on this topic, all you've done so far is complain about the current streaming systems and saying it's driven entirely by greed without offering any alternative solutions. I should ask, then, what system do you propose would be better and still remain profitable for the streaming companies and license holders? And are there any such examples in existence right now?

Desa wrote:

edmg7 wrote:

...so you're saying anime should be free when the people making it are already making less then minimum wage? How's that a sustainable business model?

The current state of the anime industry is already unsustainable, but as I've already explained in another thread, it has nothing to do with copyright infringement nor does it have anything to do with whatever price is being set for streaming services. Crunchyroll could jack up their prices to $50 USD per month tomorrow, and if by some miracle they don't lose any customers it still wouldn't change the current state of exploitation. Not one bit. Those who understand this knows how the system really works. Everyone else is living in some comfortable fantasy bubble where logic like "it's those damn pirates that are ruining everthing!" somehow makes perfect sense.

I could write so much more about this, but I'll be derailing this thread.

Still not seeing how your suggestion is better. You're saying that people should be allowed to watch stuff on the internet for free, that would change the system from one where the creators get little to one where they get nothing. Anime would just stop being made.

leafy sea dragon wrote:

This is something I've noticed too, and my best explanation for it is that the predominant way of viewing anime in the Anglosphere used to be through pirated means, and they would translate and distribute almost everything. This led to an audience who is not used to compromise when it comes to which anime they want to see and become spoiled in the near-unlimited choice they get.

Sorry I seem to have overlooked your message. Anyway, I guess that would be one possibility.

mangamuscle wrote:

I think the anime community needs to move on. A decade ago it made sense to make a crusade against piracy since the anime market literally went bust and there was the very real possibility that anime would be gone from america for good. But times change and so has the anime market.

The original question was more in the line of "Why do people think they need to pay for all their anime streaming habits?". Aquasakura mentions using the free (with commercials) option of crunchyroll and I have heard other people talk about doing the same in yahoo view. ATM I am watching (one week late) some series in hidive. For young otaku it is a must to see it on the same day (I even dare to say, the minute) it airs (see episode 2 of animegataris) but for casual viewers waiting a week and watch it with commercials is ok, even normal.

Wow! I knew things were not good for the anime market back then, but I didn't think it was so bad that the possibility of anime never being made available in the U.S again was a thing. So, it seems we both have similar ways of viewing anime on streaming sites. I'm not too in a hurry to watch anime the moment they come out and there are times in which I would fall behind in watching a show for whatever reasons. This happen with Dragonball Super for instance in which I feel a bit behind on watching the episodes. I'm caught up now, but it seems at the time it was for the best as I heard things didn't go so well for streaming sites when the hour long Dragonball Special was made available.

So I take it then that young anime fans in general (or some) just lack patience when it comes to streaming the anime they want.

Aquasakura wrote:

So I take it then that young anime fans in general (or some) just lack patience when it comes to streaming the anime they want.

I'm 67, and I prefer to watch anime on an episode-by-episode basis because I enjoy discussing the shows in online forums like this one. Does that mean I "lack patience?"

Sorry Yuna! I didn't mean to imply to people such as yourself who watch anime episode-by-episode basis to have discussions. I'm trying to make sense of what I've learn so far concerning why some fans feel they need to subscribe to every streaming site instead of just choosing one or two to contribute.

Aquasakura wrote:

Quote:

I'm trying to make sense of what I've learn so far concerning why some fans feel they need to subscribe to every streaming site instead of just choosing one or two to contribute.

There is a fairly vocal group that wants to try every new show each season. Since most of the shows are exclusive to a given site that would involve every site having exclusive shows. For myself, I could probably cover everything I want to see by subscribing to two or three sites. The problem with that is that this is likely to change with each new season. Some seasons Netflix has a show I want, some times not. This means either paying to carry a service for a season or two without any benefit or going through the hassle of subscribing or unsubscribing each season depending on a sites offerings.

Further with multiple streaming sites, you have the problem of managing multiple log in procedures and learning to navigate multiple players. I subscribed to Funimation for a couple of years and never did get it to work the way I wanted.

There was a brief period when subscribing to Crunchyroll and Funimation could get you most of shows for the season, now it has gone all to hell. It is going to get worse before it gets better (if it does) and there is nothing that anime fans can do about it.

Alan45 wrote:

There was a brief period when subscribing to Crunchyroll and Funimation could get you most of shows for the season, now it has gone all to hell. It is going to get worse before it gets better (if it does) and there is nothing that anime fans can do about it.

I wouldn't say it's quite gone to hell. Are there more companies involved now? Sure. However, as a fan for roughly 25 years my opinion is "oh well" that's life. I'm sorry but despite what a lot of the new generation of fans seems to think you're not actually entitled to everything you want just because you want it. There are tv shows on Starzz I want to watch. Maybe some on Cinemax. Then there are Hulu or Netflix only sows. It's unrealistic to sign up for every movie package or streaming service and pay exorbitant amounts if my funds are limited. So I pick and choose. The same applies here. I do think it sucks that more companies are trying to get into the anime market, but again that's just life. I think part of the reason the younger generation of fans feel entitled or have little patience is they never had to wait like we did in the past. They never had to wait for dvd single releases where you got 3-4 episodes every 2-3 months. I won't even go into the vhs days. Even with more companies getting involved with the streaming there is still more anime now each season than most could keep up with even if it was all free.

To answer the actual question, while there are more companies getting into anime streaming I think as a whole it is still quite consumer friendly. Crunchyroll still gets the biggest slice of simulcast streams. Funimation gets the lion share of simuldubs and you have their large back catalog. Between those two alone you should have more anime to watch than you have time to watch it in. Plus there is HiDive right now which is only $5 a month during their Beta stage. Granted there's no app for streaming to mobile devices or consoles yet but you still get almost all of Sentai's back catalog as well. So even though more companies are getting into anime streaming the vast majority can be found in 2 primary locations. Now that might change but as it stands now I would say anime is still on the whole consumer friendly and accessible.

Aquasakura wrote:

Sorry Yuna! I didn't mean to imply to people such as yourself who watch anime episode-by-episode basis to have discussions. I'm trying to make sense of what I've learn so far concerning why some fans feel they need to subscribe to every streaming site instead of just choosing one or two to contribute.

In addition to Alan45's reasons, I'd like to propose another: Among some of these people who claim to do so, I would say at least a few are also moving the goalposts giving reasons why they would obtain their shows from pirated sources. That is, since they watch every single show, and streaming is pricey and may be unaffordable to some, they'll pirate their shows as that's more within their budget.

This, of course, makes about as much sense as justifying pirating video games because one wants to play every video game as they're released.

Of course, pirated sources have every show, or nearly every show, so sometimes, you DO have that person who gets access to everything and DOES watch everything. Most of these people are children or teenagers, however; I highly doubt any adult with a job could have the time to do that (and by that, I mean follow every episode of every show, not just the first episode or two). I used to tutor this little boy in math who would do just that. He wouldn't necessarily understand everything he saw (especially the sexual stuff), but he'd spend every hour not doing school-related stuff, chores, or sleep watching anime and voraciously consumed every series he could find. And, of course, he'd get it all from pirated sources because his parents weren't going to pay for it.

Psycho 101 wrote:

I think part of the reason the younger generation of fans feel entitled or have little patience is they never had to wait like we did in the past. They never had to wait for dvd single releases where you got 3-4 episodes every 2-3 months. I won't even go into the vhs days. Even with more companies getting involved with the streaming there is still more anime now each season than most could keep up with even if it was all free.

The younger generation also gets much easier access to these pirate sites than previous generations. They never lived through the "keep distributing the tapes" period or the "torrent this show and go to bed for the night and maybe you'll get a few episodes when you wake up in the morning" period. These sites, nowadays, will provide everything to them at their fingertips, and immediately at that. It can be hard to persuade them to follow a model where not only do they have to PAY for their anime, but there's a smaller selection.

(This is assuming they're old enough to have a concept of money other than some numbers and stuff their parents have that they give to other people to get things and that banks are a limitless source of it.)

Aquasakura wrote:

mangamuscle wrote:

I think the anime community needs to move on. A decade ago it made sense to make a crusade against piracy since the anime market literally went bust and there was the very real possibility that anime would be gone from america for good. But times change and so has the anime market.

Wow! I knew things were not good for the anime market back then, but I didn't think it was so bad that the possibility of anime never being made available in the U.S again was a thing. So, it seems we both have similar ways of viewing anime on streaming sites. I'm not too in a hurry to watch anime the moment they come out and there are times in which I would fall behind in watching a show for whatever reasons.
So I take it then that young anime fans in general (or some) just lack patience when it comes to streaming the anime they want.

It wasn't some moral idea that we thought someone wanted to make the anime market go away, it was just that the new bigger anime market was still so stagnated in where it began that it took a long time to change to new markets--Outside of what the fans had been doing under the table, with the Internet and digisubs, etc.
An early 00's market still stuck in the 90's, where you buy four episodes, at a retail outlet, of any show you were even curious to watch, was suddenly going to have the rug pulled out from under them if retailers suddenly didn't want to sell it anymore, and anime companies had spent too much on shows you didn't want to watch to stay in business making the ones you did.

The rise of streaming--which Funimation.com survived to popularize, and if you look at the birth of Crunchyroll, grew out of the 00's underground digisub community that just wanted to sample their product--didn't replace the disk market completely, just reshaped it to a new system where you watch before you buy, and companies only make disks they think will sell.
The cries of "Those darn pirates are causing the bust!" were the companies trying to point fingers at other parties, some of whom were creating the new system responsibly (and the louder and more immature crowd who weren't)--But seemed to be more of a disgruntled industry that had still been in such an established niche of making a quality product, they didn't see why they should "move on" and update the sales market to something that more reflected the audience's needs and sales opportunities.

Crunchyroll's "pirate" digisub-era system gone respectable basically demonstrates a market that shaped itself to the customer--Which anime has had to do, since nobody else knew about it but the fans, and the fans became the entrepreneurs since the beginning.
Netflix and Amazon are NOT for-fans-by-fans anime channels, they simply grab a genre and try to make it fit their established markets.
If that means saying "Here's a new show to binge, after you finish bingeing the new Stranger Things season!", some fans will believe that, and some fans won't. More likely it's the non-anime Netflix fans who will, and wait for the services to provide more anime for them like good headwaiters.

Last edited by Aquasakura on Fri Oct 20, 2017 7:02 am; edited 1 time in total

Alan45 wrote:

There is a fairly vocal group that wants to try every new show each season. Since most of the shows are exclusive to a given site that would involve every site having exclusive shows. For myself, I could probably cover everything I want to see by subscribing to two or three sites. The problem with that is that this is likely to change with each new season. Some seasons Netflix has a show I want, some times not. This means either paying to carry a service for a season or two without any benefit or going through the hassle of subscribing or unsubscribing each season depending on a sites offerings.

leafy sea dragon wrote:

Of course, pirated sources have every show, or nearly every show, so sometimes, you DO have that person who gets access to everything and DOES watch everything. Most of these people are children or teenagers, however; I highly doubt any adult with a job could have the time to do that (and by that, I mean follow every episode of every show, not just the first episode or two). I used to tutor this little boy in math who would do just that. He wouldn't necessarily understand everything he saw (especially the sexual stuff), but he'd spend every hour not doing school-related stuff, chores, or sleep watching anime and voraciously consumed every series he could find. And, of course, he'd get it all from pirated sources because his parents weren't going to pay for it.

I’m starting to get some clarity into this. So this “vocal group” wants to watch every anime that comes out each season, and the majority of this group is made up of minors who are dependent/at the mercy of their parent’s income. Because of this, along with the newer anime being divided up among different streaming sites (some of which are newer contender sin the market) they feel limited by what they can watch. Seems to be believable!

Now that I think about it the desire to want to watch every anime is something I can relate to as I use to have this desire when I was younger. Being aware of Japanese animation was something new for me at the time, a novelty that I kind of miss feeling sometimes. Back then I was more open to watching different anime even when some of those shows fell under genres I didn’t particularly care for when I think back. I’m thankful that the anime I did watch didn’t fall under being too disturbing as well as thankful that the anime I did manage to own on DVD, while with some I don’t seem to like as much as I use to, I still like them enough to be entertaining so I have no regrets in owning those titles. They might have the possibility to bring some nostalgia to those times. I should go back to watch those shows again one day to see it they would have that affect.

So I am beginning to understand where those people are coming from. With that said however, I'm in agreement with what Psycho said on this matter. In fact it's similar to my thoughts to what I was thinking earlier which was this:

Psycho 101 wrote:

It's unrealistic to sign up for every movie package or streaming service and pay exorbitant amounts if my funds are limited. So I pick and choose.

Plus I find it best to enjoy a series you know you are going to have a higher chance in liking then watching a bunch of shows you may or may not care for. It's the reason why places such as this website has these seasonal preview guides as a means to help people determine what they should be spending their time (and maybe money) on. This however requires that one is aware of what they generally like, and thinking back at the time I was probably was not well aware of my taste in stories as I am now (and I am still learning and my taste are ever changing).

As for the issue of paying these official sites to watch the latest anime, from my knowledge it's only Netflix, Hulu, and Amazon which requires one to subscribe to them in order to watch what they have to offer. As for the other streaming sites not so much to a degree. I know with the case of Funimation there are certain anime that is only available
to those who subscribe to them, while for Crunchyroll (with a few exceptions) it's only with the newer episodes they make available to their subscribers. However with the case of Crunchyroll after a week those episodes are made available to people who are not subscribe to them can watch them. Plus this is not the case with all of their titles. One can watch the latest episode of Dragonball Super for instance without having to wait a week to see it due to not being a subscriber. Also, much of the titles Cruncyroll has available is for free (more so then Funimation from my experience).

I also checked out HiDive a bit earlier today to see what this site was all about, and it seems to be a similar case. Much of their titles are available for free, and they seem to have a good selection from the looks of it. Granted I could be one wrong as I only checked out one of the titles they had so anyone can feel free to point out if I am wrong about HiDive.

So unless an anime one want to see in particular happens to get license by either Hulu, Netflix, or heaven forbid Amazon (because that is one thing I am in agreement with those people who complain about the accessibility of anime is that Amazon has a terrible way of approaching this business) there is little worry to pay to watch these shows if one is unable to at the present. Plus I can see much of those anime focus streaming sites getting the majority of anime as Psycho mentions. So at the present anime still seems more accessible, and I hope it can stay that way.

Well thanks Alan, Psycho and Leafy Sea Dragon for answering my question and offering insight. You all have been helpful. Smile

Aquasakura wrote:

So unless an anime one want to see in particular happens to get license by either Hulu, Netflix, or heaven forbid Amazon (because that is one thing I am in agreement with those people who complain about the accessibility of anime hearing about they are approaching this) there is little worry to pay to watch these shows if one is unable to at the present.

I have had a subscription to CrunchyRoll for years. I've been happy with that. I have often stumbled onto various shows I found appealing once I started watching them, but prior to 2017 the shows I wanted to see were mostly either Sentai (on CR, but not anymore) or FUNimation (previously NOT on CR, but now they will be). This Spring/Summer seasons I was specifically LOOKING for 3 shows:
-Sakura Quest (CrunchyRoll)
-Princess Principal (Amazon)
-Little Witch Academia (Netflix)

I watched and loved Sakura Quest. I backed LWA on kickstarter, still have not watched the TV series. Didn't watch PriPri. I don't think I'm ENTITLED to any of these shows, but I'm just incredibly disappointed that the fracturing of the market makes this happen. (I haven't yet had ANY other shows I want to watch on Netflix, and Amazon so far gets shows I want at a rate of 1 per year, which I don't consider cost effective, if I were paying $10/month I can buy the show I want for that and still have money left over)

I am considering getting HiDive, simply because Sentai seems to get enough content that interests me. I'm considering dropping CR due to my annoyance with the Sentai/CR breakup, but there's not a "must watch" show this season motivating the decision right now.

HeeroTX wrote:

This Spring/Summer seasons I was specifically LOOKING for 3 shows:
-Sakura Quest (CrunchyRoll)
-Princess Principal (Amazon)
-Little Witch Academia (Netflix)

I watched and loved Sakura Quest. I backed LWA on kickstarter, still have not watched the TV series. Didn't watch PriPri. I don't think I'm ENTITLED to any of these shows, but I'm just incredibly disappointed that the fracturing of the market makes this happen. (I haven't yet had ANY other shows I want to watch on Netflix, and Amazon so far gets shows I want at a rate of 1 per year, which I don't consider cost effective, if I were paying $10/month I can buy the show I want for that and still have money left over).

I understand where you are coming from Heero and sorry to hear that. I was referring mainly to those who seem to want to just watch anime in general as appose to just looking forward to certain shows. So far I have not have the issue of being unable to watch a new anime due to it being on a service I can’t get access to although the main reason for this is that I have not been keeping up with the latest anime as I use to. I have only seen two shows that came out in 2017 so far with LWA being one of them (the main reason why I join Netflix). However with the way things are the possibility of this happening is there.

Concerning LWA if it helps I learn the blu-rays of the show do have English subtitles and it’s region free, so if you still want to watch it yet do not see it financially viable to subscribe to Netflix nor morally right to watch the anime from an unofficial streaming site importing the DVDs seems like the next best option. However as a warning the blu-rays seem pricey (I know blu-rays are more expensive then DVDs but its surprising especially considering they are singles volumes). Here's the link to Amazon's Japanese page if you interested:
link Hope this helps.

HeeroTX wrote:

This Spring/Summer seasons I was specifically LOOKING for 3 shows:
-Sakura Quest (CrunchyRoll)
-Princess Principal (Amazon)
-Little Witch Academia (Netflix)

This seems to be the real problem for me, and I suspect for other fans as well. I don't have any interest in watching all the shows that air. Most seasons I only watch one to five shows. I also wanted to see those same three shows HeeroTX cites and had to use three subscriptions to watch them. I was lucky that I had existing CR and Netflix subscriptions, and as an Amazon Prime subscriber, could pay the extra $5/month for shows on Strike as well.

For pure quantity, nothing beats Crunchyroll, but each season I see fewer and fewer shows I want to watch there. I watched only Sakura Quest last season and am watching Magus's Bride now. Amazon, on the other hand, has made some wonderful selections like Made in Abyss, Princess Principal, and this season's remarkable Girls' Last Tour. I'm now more likely to discover something to watch by browsing Amazon's more limited selection and finding Re:Creators, Bahamut, and Welcome to the Ballroom.

I've been a CR subscriber pretty much from the outset, but I'm now starting to wonder whether it's worth the money.

TasteyCookie wrote:

Thanks for the followup article! Though I think you hit the nail on the head with the Spotify argument and the biggest reason why Netflix and Amazon could be the death of the anime industry in the west.

We read the article very differently, because this wasn't my take.

Justin left out one of the most significant reasons why Spotify isn't making any money: the up-front licensing costs are killing the service.

When Taylor Swift attacked Spotify for failing to pay artists reasonably, the CEO stated this wasn't the case. In addition, he stated Swift's record label received nearly $2 million for the license of the 7 songs they were allowed to play.

When people called out Swift for this, rather than own up to it, she shut down the conversation.

I know exactly what Spotify is going through because we tried a streaming service way back in 2006, long before "pads" and "phones". We had everything set up: encrypted streaming to prevent copying, digital fingerprinting, and other tools used to combat piracy.

We were shut down before we even started. The record labels, primarily BMG, wanted 90% of the take of all revenue. That's freaking absurd, and no business can run on 10%. When we asked for an alternative, they wanted a staggering $12 million for the library we were interested in streaming.

Spotify is paying over $100 million, easily, for their catalog. This isn't a sustainable business because the labels keep making absurd demands of payment. This, of course, is on top of other licensing options such as music in movies/TV, public venues (restaurants, bars, etc), and of course direct sales.

The "second paywall" complaint of Amazon isn't a second paywall from Amazon. I can pretty much guarantee Amazon receives very little, if any at all, from this fee. Amazon's goal is bigger than that: watch the show, buy something from the store, which Amazon gets a much larger stake.

Things aren't likely to change until the publishing industry adapts. It's 2017, and most still treat their wares as "tangible" (thus, purchasable) goods, rather than accepting that media has, and always will be, primarily a consumable good.

Not everyone wants to "own" an anime show, be it disk or merchandise.

Yet publishers feel this isn't the case and will continue to price accordingly.

I should point out one of the largest reasons the anime industry has grown successfully in Japan is because several publishers have changed, by allowing production committees to give everyone a chance to earn from successful shows (or share in the loss).

It's "crowdfunding" done right. Compare this with how our license venues work in the US, and clearly, "profit margins" don't share the same definition.

Japanese business has, typically, prepared for the future, not the "now", and they conform to this belief. It's not always perfect (10 years to finally get streaming?), but when they do it, well, the proof exists.

Whether piracy is to blame or not, it's crystal clear things are much better today than they were just 10 years ago... for anime.

For Spotify? I doubt they'll see 2020.

Aquasakura wrote:

I’m starting to get some clarity into this. So this “vocal group” wants to watch every anime that comes out each season, and the majority of this group is made up of minors who are dependent/at the mercy of their parent’s income. Because of this, along with the newer anime being divided up among different streaming sites (some of which are newer contender sin the market) they feel limited by what they can watch. Seems to be believable!

They're not always minors, though they DO tend towards the young. It's mainly due to their greater tech-savviness (or as perceived), unrealistic perceptions of money, greater amount of free time, and just general excitement over anime. The last point I feel is the most important one: When you first get into something, you're really excited about it and you want to consume as much of it as you can. Your appetite is insatiable. An entire season of anime as it comes out might not be enough. After some time, unless anime is your true passion, and you click with it like few other people in the world, you stop getting so obsessed with it. The novelty will have worn off, you'll eventually get your fill, and there will probably be something else that will catch your interest. This sounds like something you've experienced, and I think this is an experience most people will have gone through, if not for anime then for something else. (With me, it was Sonic the Hedgehog. With a classmate of mine, it was Jurassic Park.)

Whatever it is you enjoy, once you've been consuming it for long enough, you start learning what it is you like and dislike and you become more selective. Or you might find that you just didn't like it as much as you used to and drop it entirely. I'd say the majority of the people who post here are of the "more selective" category. They've watched enough anime to find what they're truly drawn to and what they just watched back when they were younger because everything was new and exciting.

Violynne wrote:

I should point out one of the largest reasons the anime industry has grown successfully in Japan is because several publishers have changed, by allowing production committees to give everyone a chance to earn from successful shows (or share in the loss).

It's "crowdfunding" done right. Compare this with how our license venues work in the US, and clearly, "profit margins" don't share the same definition.

Japanese business has, typically, prepared for the future, not the "now", and they conform to this belief. It's not always perfect (10 years to finally get streaming?), but when they do it, well, the proof exists.

Out of curiosity, how have the production committees changed? My impression of them is that they're the same gray old men as they were ten or twenty years ago, dead set in their ways, and it required coercion from companies like FUNimation for them to even realize streaming is a major thing. And that's how it felt to me with Daisuki as a streaming platform: It wasn't taken very seriously by the very people who made it, and it was initially used as a vehicle to sell expensive merchandise rather than a means in and of itself.

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