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This is the big bugaboo for mainstream TV and film on streaming. Everybody wants to set up their own platform, so if you want to stream everything, you can't just get Netflix. You gotta get Netflix, Amazon, Hulu, CBS All Access, HBO Now etc. and whatever platform Disney sets up.

In anime, we're lucky that there's still the one big fish in Crunchyroll and smaller fish, a few of which people subscribe to anyway. Anime Strike isn't worth it yet, but maybe it will be. And Netflix is hinting they're going to commission more localizations, so that's neat.

yuna49 wrote:

There's a good chunk of the audience in the 12-17 year-old bracket that may be living in those Prime households. .... So I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that all those young people you speak of have no access to Prime whatsoever.

Neither you can jump to the opposite assumption Also, even in those households of those 12-17 where there is access to prime, that does not mean automatic access to anme strike, specially if it is not a cord cutter household and they still pay a hundred+ bucks a month on cable and is hard to explain to a bill paying non otaku why they have to fork cash for an anime exclusive channel when prime already offers recent anime.

Said people was better served when all the anime amazon had was available on prime alone.

yuna49 wrote:

For classic and foreign films, there is filmstruck.com, an offshoot of Turner Classic Movies. They bought the license to The Criterion Collection which Hulu used to own whereupon I dropped Hulu (which I rarely used) and started a FilmStruck subscription.

I know about Filmstruck but it's not available in Canada and, even if I could afford a second streaming subscription, I'd also have to pay extra for a streaming-friendly VPN to be able to watch it.

The problem here where I live is that I need so many subscriptions just to watch half of the simulcast. Just too give some examples: Crunchyroll, netflix, amazon, wakanim, hidive are some of the ones I am using and I still don't get everything I want to watch. And every service together is quite expensive. And you should not forget that I don't get everything the service has to offer because they don't license it in my country.

mangamuscle wrote:

yuna49 wrote:

There's a good chunk of the audience in the 12-17 year-old bracket that may be living in those Prime households. .... So I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that all those young people you speak of have no access to Prime whatsoever.

Neither you can jump to the opposite assumption Also, even in those households of those 12-17 where there is access to prime, that does not mean automatic access to anme strike, specially if it is not a cord cutter household and they still pay a hundred+ bucks a month on cable and is hard to explain to a bill paying non otaku why they have to fork cash for an anime exclusive channel when prime already offers recent anime.

Strike costs the equivalent of a cup of coffee at places like Starbucks each month. Do you really think adolescents living in a household paying "hundred+ bucks a month" for cable can't find the $5/month to cover the cost of Strike? Maybe in Mexico, and maybe in the poorest parts of the US, but in order to get any streaming service you need an Internet connection and appropriate hardware. That already excludes households at the bottom of the income distribution.

I get that you don't like Amazon's model, but it is what it is, and it is unlikely to change any time soon.

Getting all anime in one place for one subscription fee is not a difficult thing to accomplish either from a business standpoint or a technical standpoint. The only reason why it doesn't happen is because of greed. How do I know this? Well, because not too long ago there was a rather convenient way to get virtually all the movies, tv shows, and yes, anime you could want all for one affordable monthly fee: It was Netflix's DVD subscription! (Which technically still exists).

There is fundamentally little difference between consuming digital entertainment through plastic discs versus copper wires (streaming) aside from the obvious time delays. The industry could've just as easily mirrored the pricing model for discs and applied it to streaming as well. How? Easy. Just use virtual discs.

Before streaming existed, when a new movie or series came out, Netflix would have to purchase X number of discs to meet projected rental demand. The streaming model could just use virtual discs to replace physical discs. Netflix would still pay for each virtual disc exactly like they would physical discs, so there is little difference in profits. The number of virtual discs purchased represents the maximum number of simultaneous instances of a title that Netflix is allowed to stream. And if demand is higher than expected, Netflix can simply purchase more virtual discs, which essentially represent queuing slots. The benefits over physical discs is that there is no risk of damaging "virtual" discs, and there is no time delay of snail mail, although there may still be a delay if there is higher than expected demand for a specific title, in which case it'll just sit in your queue for a while.

As for titles with no disc or "package" equivalent e.g. simulcasts, the standard licensing fee approach would work, and ideally licensing agreements would be non-exclusive so that companies can then compete on other factors like video and subtitle quality.

The reason why all of this has not already happened is because of the same dumb logic that somehow justifies things like geo-restrictions. Does it make sense that something can be bought with X USD but for some reason the equivalent amount of AUD is no good? No it doesn't. It's just greed. Why do data caps exist? Literally no reason but greed.

Thankfully the free market isn't always constrained by the obtuseness of corporate logic. If companies don't want to provide a legitimate way for consumers to get what they want, then unsanctioned sites will gladly fill that void.

Aresef wrote:

This is the big bugaboo for mainstream TV and film on streaming. Everybody wants to set up their own platform, so if you want to stream everything, you can't just get Netflix. You gotta get Netflix, Amazon, Hulu, CBS All Access, HBO Now etc. and whatever platform Disney sets up.

In anime, we're lucky that there's still the one big fish in Crunchyroll and smaller fish, a few of which people subscribe to anyway. Anime Strike isn't worth it yet, but maybe it will be. And Netflix is hinting they're going to commission more localizations, so that's neat.

Wouldn't say that's a "bubble" yet, but that's certainly what a Boom is, just before it becomes a Bust:
A lot of people finally (a few beats late) seeing that there's gold in them-thar streams, trying to get into the New Market, seeing the one guy who made it look easy, and ALL thinking they can do it themselves.
And then, when they can't, business starts culling the herd back to the two or three essential brands that DID know how to do it, from professional experience and customer appeal.

Crunchyroll is finally being considered one of the "big" new streaming channels alongside Netflix and Hulu, and, gasp, a targeted one with specific content!
That's caused a new sub-market in what used to be the old "theme" channels of 80's cable when that first appeared--meaning, we're getting specific Horror streams, Kids' streams, Documentary streams, etc.--and the people who think there's a market in Anime streams are going to try and grab The Kids without really knowing how.
And then, when they don't and give up like the other cable channels did, that still leaves Crunchy and Funi with their core audiences, as they started with.

EricJ2 wrote:

In the US, the "hippie" towns like San Francisco and MA college-towns only just now enacted a green ban on plastic grocery bags, starting this year (based on Scandinavia's idea)--
If you go to the supermarket, you either bring your cloth tote, you get them in paper, or you buy a biodegradable plastic bag for an extra ten to fifteen cents.

Really? The city just south of mine has had a bag ban for years. On the other hand, in mine I can use as many damn bags as I want(at the self checkout; the cashiers are usually more conservative).

Quote:

any new product, service, job structure or even political system is doomed if it doesn't naturally take into account that its potential human customers will be A) Lazy, B) Greedy and C) Horny, and seek to use the new offering to the best advantage of all three.

Can't do much about C)

I'm pretty sure that more than a few would be willing to pay an extra 3 or 4 dollars a month for Crunchyroll Pink if it existed.

Desa wrote:

Getting all anime in one place for one subscription fee is not a difficult thing to accomplish either from a business standpoint or a technical standpoint. The only reason why it doesn't happen is because of greed.

Streaming technically involves making copies of the original work. Since royalties are per copy, we're almost instantly stuck in the hell we're in - the only difference being that vendor lock-in is entirely optional, but content producers go along with it anyway.

Quote:

The number of virtual discs purchased represents the maximum number of simultaneous instances of a title that Netflix is allowed to stream.

Streaming is sold on a "right here, right now" basis. Having to wait for somebody else to finish their session before you can begin watching is a violation of every expectation a user has of the service.

Last edited by Zalis116 on Sun Oct 15, 2017 10:45 pm; edited 1 time in total

As with the previous discussion of this topic, let's take a historical view -- back to the Summer 2005 Season. Of the 19 non-kids shows that started airing that season, only 11 have ever been licensed in the US. To legally access those 11 shows at the earliest possible point, you would have had to pay for 54 DVDs, which were $30 MSRP back then. Let's assume a slight discount to $25 per disc, which gives us $1350 total... which, after adjusting for inflation, is around $1640.

According to this list of Summer 2017 anime, 45 out of 48 titles were available on one or more streaming sites. If we take Hulu+ No Commercials at $12, Strike at $13.25, CR/Funi via VRV at $10, Netflix at $8, and HiDive at $4, that's $47.25 per month. 6 months subscribing at that price = $283.50. So already, you're paying 17% of the 2005 cost to access everything that's been licensed. But, the streaming landscape licensed 94% of the Summer 2017 season, as opposed to 58% of the Summer 2005 season that got licensed. If you wanted the earliest legal access to 94% of the Summer 2005 season, you'd have to pay for the Japanese releases. Some of these disc counts are estimates, but I'm fairly sure they're conservative ones:

Da Capo Second Season - 8
My Wife is a High School Girl - 5
My Wife is a Magical Girl - 5
PetoPeto-san - 5
Akahori Hour - 5
Patalliro Saiyuuki - 8
Play Ball - 5
(We'll omit the 51-episode, 13-disc Sugar Sugar Rune as a longer kids' show to bring the percentage to 18/19 or 94%.)

That's 41 discs, and at a conservative $65 per disc, that's an additional $3230* added on to that $1640; a $4870 "ask" on the industry's part to legally access 94% of that season at the earliest opportunity. There are some intangible, harder-to-quantify factors at work, like possibly getting dubs and corrected/uncensored versions on disc releases, but the current streaming landscape doesn't ask viewers to wait 6-12 months for Japanese releases or 18-24+ months (for instance, Summer 2005's Ah My Buddha was not fully released in R1 until June 2009) for North American ones.

*Amount adjusted for inflation, but does not include shipping costs.

So despite all the teeth-gnashing over multiple subscriptions and double paywalls (and really, are people going to be any less hostile to Strike if it were a standalone $13.25 cost?), we have a situation where accessing 94% of a season costs 5.8% of what it did 12 years ago. And heck, you could save $120 by watching CR/Funi a week later with ads, so that's 3.4% of the 2005 cost. Beyond all that, the 48 NA-licensed Summer 2017 shows come out to $5.94 per show ($3.41 with ad-supported CR/Funi), vs. $149.09 per show to get the 11 NA-licensed Summer 2005 series. We're getting 4 times as much content, for 2.3-4.0% of the price of what it cost us 12 years ago. I don't know how you call that "not consumer-friendly."

^ I don't know about most of those other shows from summer 2005, but both Strawberry Marshmallow and Kamichu! eventually got lower-priced box set re-releases in North America.

Those were the only 2 shows from that summer that interested me (although I didn't see either one for at least another year) and, as such, they're the only two I own.

Tenchi wrote:

^ I don't know about most of those other shows from summer 2005, but both Strawberry Marshmallow and Kamichu! eventually got lower-priced box set re-releases in North America.

Indeed all 11 shows got cheaper re-releases, but I was focusing on the initial-release singles as the first legal way for North American customers to access the shows without importing. For a more specific breakdown, in order of MAL popularity:

Shuffle! - 6 discs (Funimation)
Full Metal Panic! TSR - 4 (Funimation)
Suzuka - 6 (Funimation)
Ah My Buddha S1 - 3 (Media-Blasters, later Nozomi)
Strawberry Marshmallow - 3 (Geneon, later Sentai)
Gun x Sword - 7 (Geneon, later Funimation)
PaniPoni Dash! - 6 (ADV, later Funimation)
Kamichu! - 4 (Geneon, later Funimation, now expired because Aniplex)
Guyver TV - 7 (ADV, later Funimation)
Tide Line Blue - 4 (Bandai, now expired)
Moeyo Ken TV - 3 (ADV, later Funimation, now expired)

Hmm, seems I was off on the disc counts for Guyver and TLB, which coincidentally are the only two I don't own. Gotta go back and recalculate those numbers...

yuna49 wrote:

Strike costs the equivalent of a cup of coffee at places like Starbucks each month. Do you really think adolescents living in a household paying "hundred+ bucks a month" for cable can't find the $5/month to cover the cost of Strike? Maybe in Mexico, and maybe in the poorest parts of the US, but in order to get any streaming service you need an Internet connection and appropriate hardware. That already excludes households at the bottom of the income distribution.

1) Nowadays even people below the poverty line can get a cheap second hand smartphone able to stream anime in SD at least.

2) Not because something is cheap you are going to pay for it. If you can't understand that simple truth please let me show you several dirty cheap donation pages where you only need to donate a few bucks each month. Streaming services have to convince people that your media is worth not only your time, but your money. That is why funi, crunchy, hulu (yahoo view) have free (with commercial) options, otherwise it would be enough to just have a one/two/four free week(s) trial periods. I like to think I am supporting anime with my paid subscription, but TBT I am paying for watching content without commercials, as simple as that.

People are not going to pay for something they are not used to. Continuing with the plastic bags example, I watch youtube (and also the news on broadcast TV) but you can bet I would stop watching if they started asking for money and start watching about the same things somewhere else since those stream/broadcast do not create video/news.

Add to that nowadays not everybody watching anime is an otaku. In the good old days only otaku watched anime because only otaku could pay the price. Even if you watched for free, you needed to invest time. Nowadays casual watchers are at an all time high. Maybe the want to see some TnA, maybe they want to watch the most popular show of the season, maybe the made the wrong turn at Albuquerque and decided to stay a bit longer.

So yeah, there are several legitimate reasons why the double paywall and the lack of a free option (with commercials) is poison.

Quote:

I get that you don't like Amazon's model, but it is what it is, and it is unlikely to change any time soon.

I get you think you are defending anime, but at the end of the day you are only defending a crummy business model. Whether Amazon will change their model is anybodies guess, but this is the right place and time to voice my opinion, which btw is free as beer Very Happy

Zalis116 wrote:

So despite all the teeth-gnashing over multiple subscriptions and double paywalls (and really, are people going to be any less hostile to Strike if it were a standalone $13.25 cost?), we have a situation where accessing 94% of a season costs 5.8% of what it did 12 years ago. And heck, you could save $120 by watching CR/Funi a week later with ads, so that's 3.4% of the 2005 cost. Beyond all that, the 48 NA-licensed Summer 2017 shows come out to $5.94 per show ($3.41 with ad-supported CR/Funi), vs. $149.09 per show to get the 11 NA-licensed Summer 2005 series. We're getting 4 times as much content, for 2.3-4.0% of the price of what it cost us 12 years ago. I don't know how you call that "not consumer-friendly."

I get your logic, but telling a modern generation how much better they have it rarely works at convincing them. 2005 was also better than the 90s where we had slim pickings of VHS series, and had to pay more if you wanted the sub version. Who knows, in 10 years people might look at the dozen or so streaming platforms we have now and say this was way better than what it's like in the future.

Also, to be fair, your number is paying for an actual product. Disks, boxsets, etc. A number of people refuse to pay for a digital stream service in general if they don't get a tangible product. Maybe they'll pay for CR, but multi-dipping is going to irk them even more if they dislike it in the first place, which is why so many go the illegal route and pick up a boxset if one is ever released.

Regarding Anime Strike and Amazon Prime: There seems to be an unusually large amount of complaining about having to get Amazin Prime and then get Anime Strike over here, which I actually found pretty unusual because in every other online circle I've been in that isn't anime-related, there are a lot of people openly talking about their subscriptions to Amazin Prime. I don't know if it's some kind of vocal minority or anime fans really ARE just one of the groups that largely don't use Amazon enough though.

With our household, we use Amazon a lot because we require a number of specialized items that are simply unavailable locally. To that extent, I think Amazon appeals best to the curious in general, or people with a wide array of interests. I've noticed quite a bunch of monomania among anime fans, though perhaps that's endemic when you encounter the sufficiently hardcore fans of any given thing.

TheAncientOne wrote:

I have yet to live anywhere here in the mid-south US that charges for plastic bags.

I should note that the stores I shop at have also had plastic bag recycling bins for many years.

Seems to be regional. Here in southern California, they've been charging somewhere between 10 to 25 cents for plastic bags as is required by law. The idea is to get people to use fewer plastic bags but still provide them with the option if they really want to.

Polycell wrote:

Streaming technically involves making copies of the original work.

I don't think you realize this but what you are describing is the very premise of a digital economy, not just streaming. The method in which any digital medium is delivered is fundamentally the same as any other, which is why I said the various pricing schemes and licensing models that pertain to streaming in particular are arbitrary and built on greed and little else. Just like data caps.

Polycell wrote:

Since royalties are per copy, we're almost instantly stuck in the hell we're in

You're clearly confused with something else here. No distributor, either Crunchyroll, or Netflix, or any other streaming service, pays their licensors on a per-stream basis. To begin with, the streaming service alone has the data regarding the number of streams per title on their platform, and they do not share this information with anyone.

Polycell wrote:

Streaming is sold on a "right here, right now" basis. Having to wait for somebody else to finish their session before you can begin watching is a violation of every expectation a user has of the service.

I don't know what your Netflix DVD experience was like, but in my case I rarely had to wait for any title to become available. 99% of the wait time was because discs had to be mailed the old-fashioned way. Virtual discs are basically queue slots which can be instantly reserved and watched. But you're missing the bigger picture here. Even now, Netflix's streaming catalog is only a fraction of a fraction of the their DVD catalog, and with current streaming licenses many titles are removed on a regular basis due to expired licenses. This is a short-sighted and regressive model which makes it all but impossible for a consumer to have any loyalty to any platform because what they're offering today may not be there tomorrow.

Regressive models have no future. The current fractured streaming paradigm as it exists today will inevitably die as cable is dying today.

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