Forum - View topicINTEREST: Black Butler Creator Comments on Works With Homosexual Love
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Agent355
 Posts: 5113 Location: Crackberry in hand, thumbs at the ready... |
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You launched a pre-emptive attack, then. PsychoPearl posted:
There were no attacks or aspersions towards fans in that statement, just PsychoPearl's opinion against adult/child romances. You responded by attacking PsychoPearl's ability to distinguish between reality and fantasy:
If people are allowed to like problematic relationships in fiction without being accused of liking those relationships in real life, people should be allowed to express dislike for problematic relationships in fiction without being accused of being unable to distinguish between reality and fantasy. As for compartmentalizing, that certainly happens when people ship couples despite a factor in their relationship they dislike (example; "Luke and Laura on General Hospital make a great couple, even though Luke raped Laura in the past"<--not my actual opinion, couldn't care less about General Hospital) But not everyone is able to compartmentalize every couple, and that's ok. |
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nogara119
Posts: 24 |
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You are right, that I mostly ignore it. I avoid that crap like the plague. If someone likes that sort of thing then that's fine. *shrugs* But I think what people are trying to say to you and please, don't take offense at this...is that it kind of sounds like you're in the camp of forcing creators to put in relationships that might not necessarily ring true for the story. I mean, you're not wrong that there's always room for LGBT representation....but again, most anime is made for Japanese audiences; I'm sure someone will correct me on this, but LGBT representation over there is quite different.
I mean, Stevie Wonder could see what that relationship was a mile away...lol. And I'm not normally a yaoi person. |
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Wahappen
Posts: 39 Location: Philippines! |
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[quote="Vaisaga"]
"Several women" to be exact, let's not forget that Black Butler is Shonen, Ciel even has potential love interests, little dude has a harem. Wait no seriously for those anti's: why cant they just stfu. Seriously Hentai is a seafood platter full of amazing stuffs like pedophilia or anything-Japanese related but when it's Yaoi or shzzle, everyone loses their minds. |
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razberry_yum
 Posts: 169 |
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I actually edited down my original post just because I didn't want to seem like I was necessarily attacking PsychoPearl but rather just vehemently disagreeing with her assessment of the relationship. My point was to protest the application of a very human crime towards anime characters who aren't human beings. When people do that it usually indicates to me that they cannot separate reality from fiction, but you're right, that is probably too hasty of me so I will apologize to PsychoPearl-san for basically accusing her of being delusional. I regret my tone and delivery but I still want to reiterate that the term pedophilia, imho, simply should not be applied to fictional characters.
True, I'll take a softer tack from now on when I run across folks like that. |
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razberry_yum
Posts: 169 |
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I'm not offended, I'm more disappointed in myself for failing at conveying my point to the degree that all you were able to gather from what I've been saying is that idea, which is completely not what I mean at all. First of all, I absolutely am not forcing creators to do anything...a, I don't have that power, and b, I have no such right to do that. Secondly, I also really, really don't see creators being forced to do anything either. Where is the evidence that this is occurring? Are there necessarily more gay characters in mainstream anime just because there are maybe more yaoi-friendly fans? I don't feel the industry has changed at all so I'm at a lost why anyone would think fans have really any bearing on the current animanga climate. I mean, even with the whole Tokyo Ghoul incident which is truly abhorrent and I have no qualms calling fans who threaten creators freaking psycopaths, but ultimately, it didn't force any change in how the creator will continue to portray Taneki, right? That's a GOOD thing, but my point is that no one is capable of imposing their will on anyone else, especially not to the level of the creators changing the nature of their characters or course of their story, least of all a nobody like me. And my call for more gay representation in anime isn't meant as a demand, per se, but more a hope. You're right, Japanese society is not like Western society, and it might be decades, if ever, that we would see a change in how they view the LGBTQ sector of society, if they even care about it at all, but it doesn't hurt for someone to open the door a little just to show, look, it's not too bad, the world won't end just because there's a few good gay characters in mainstream anime, much like what Yuri on Ice essentially did. Again, this is all just my own wishful thinking...I know change will take a long while. I am absolutely not trying to force anything on anyone. God knows I don't have that kind of power.
Ohhh there was a time during where even you saying that would have a few fans calling you an idiot and delusional, etc. It's gotten better but I do still see the occasional comment about them not being gay, just affectionate. Lol. |
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rizuchan
 Posts: 975 Location: Kansas |
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There are a lot of women that like yuri, and there are plenty of women that have yuri ships (I have a few myself), but I'd say that most female anime fans are pretty turned off by yuri-baiting. It's not a non-issue at all. And while yuri stories themselves tend to be super sweet innocent girls who just like to hold hands and kiss (which is still problematic for other reasons) a lot of yuri-baiting stuff is just as rapey as yaoi. Flipping skirts and boob-grabbing is sexual assault, even though anime likes to use it as a joke. We just don't whine about it (except in the company of other female fans) because there's no point. We couldn't watch anime if we flat out refused to deal with boob grabs. So, pardon us for getting a little excited when there's a bit of side content in mainstream shows that actually targets us instead of men for once instead of blaming teh womenz for ruining your guy shows or whatever. 
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stilldemented
 Posts: 232 |
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I feel we should take into account that the internet makes the fandom discourse more confrontational than it is in all actuality. Shipping exists in that same realm of the two teenagers gossiping in the corner about whether so-and-so and whats-their-face are going to hook up. And most of the time, people will think it's entertaining and just let it be because there's other fish to fry.
The internet makes it so that it seems like everyone and their brother, sister, mother, father, cousin, best friend, pastor, acquaintance, and local serial killer are invested in the legitimacy of the bond between so-and-so and whats-their-face...and then suddenly you feel like that person on the outside looking in wondering why in the world this matters. So you speak out against your better judgment just to see if you're crazy for not caring or if the world's crazy for caring. (More often than not we assume the latter.) That's when stereotypes start coming into play. If you've seen enough of an argument you start building a profile and painting a picture of that person based on what you've seen in the past. Oh...they're THAT person...And they never fail to live up to expectations. Someone is advocating your ship? Well they're just like you and you can totally understand why they are being so emphatic and acknowledge what they are trying to accomplish. Someone looking down on your ship? They're being obnoxious and not taking others' feelings into account. They are rejecting your position. They reject your ideas. They reject you. And that's why the argument spirals out of control and people start taking potshots at one another. We start lacing our words with sarcasm as a defense mechanism. The argument grows more and more bitter. And we may even go there...just to prove that they are the terrible person so that we can be in the right. That way...We are right. Our ideas are right. Our position is right...I am right. I have value. I'm not alone... This extends into everything. Shipping, politics, religion, Thursday dinner, or whatever. We're all a little temperamental about the silliest of things. We can even be temperamental about how we're not so temperamental. And since we tend to do it subconsciously, we may not even realize we're doing it. Hahaha. Suffice it to say, we tend to try and control the outcome of any conflict. We want to come out of it smelling like roses. But I feel it is important to acknowledge when we're letting our emotions get the best of us and we're being unfair. Too much pride and vainglory create ripple effects. They sour everyone to you, haunting you in all your future endeavors. And people cannot forget when given little reason to forgive. This became a lot more existential than I anticipated. 
Don't even know if it all applies to the topic anymore. That's my fortune cookie of the day. 
(Disclaimer: Although I use 'you' at one point for dramatic effect, this isn't directed at anyone. But on that note, one would be surprised at how many conflicts arise just by adding 'you' in an internet feud. Makes things feel more personal than originally intended. XP) |
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Agent355
Posts: 5113 Location: Crackberry in hand, thumbs at the ready... |
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stilldemented, that's brilliant, you should get it published somewhere!
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Chrono1000
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harminia
 Posts: 2000 Location: australia |
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Agreed! Well done, stilldemented! |
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lebrel
Posts: 374 |
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Does anyone else get the feeling she's talking about Yuri On Ice (AKA "it's just a sports show, these rotten women can find yaoi in everything")? 
Fiction is always imaginary, regardless of whether someone finds the story positive or negative, and authors can use fiction for different ends in different stories. Some BL is about fluffy love stories and gay issues, some is about angst-ridden relationship melodrama and emotional trauma, and any given author can write some of both. I don't see anyone claiming that Gengoroh Tagame's My Brother's Husband shouldn't be regarded as an excellent series that is trying to promote positive depictions of gay men and raise gay issues just because Tagame is also famous for a large oeuvre of (explicitly pornographic) stories in which men get brutally gang-raped and sexually tortured by other men.*
The issue there is that a lot of the objections are based on the idea that the readers can't distinguish between reality and fantasy; "forceful seduction" stories normalize rape, "domineering love interest" stories normalize domestic abuse, shotabait subtext normalizes child molestation, etc. (But for some reason everyone agrees that fictional murder and bloodshed do not normalize violence...) * Seriously: we've had some pretty extreme gay men's manga in print in English for a couple of years now, why is nobody complaining about that stuff? |
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musouka
Posts: 707 |
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Actually, I believe the context in this case is referring to Banana Fish. Japanese twitter has been having a lot of back and forth about the suitability of labeling Banana Fish BL (and lamenting that fujoshi might taint it) Incredible that even without context, the beginning of this thread managed to reenact the complaints I saw almost exactly, right down to dubious, arrogant assumption that they are the default audience for every anime/manga ever created. |
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lebrel
Posts: 374 |
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Wait, is it Japanese guys doing this? I've heard Banana Fish was fairly popular with men, but that's ridiculous... If it's women, then, uh... |
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musouka
Posts: 707 |
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From what I saw, it was a mixture of both. Women tended to frame it as "I don't think of it as BL." Male fans tended to frame it as more as "ugh, I bet fujoshi are going to think Ash and Eiji are gay." |
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Velshtein
 Posts: 72 |
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Like it or not, 99% of Japanese people being straight is not far from the truth at all. Gay people make up only 2-3% of the human population, and thus it's wishful thinking to think that Asian culture is somehow repressing the true number of gay people. |
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