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Why The Garden of Sinners is a Modern Classic


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Alan45
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Joined: 25 Aug 2010
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 3:11 pm Reply with quote
The cost of this show is rather overstated. With Aniplex, the Suggested Retail Price is meaningless. Aniplex products are only available on the primary marked in the US through their own website and from The Right Stuf! TRSI does not charge SRP for these shows. The original Bluray box set (eight disks and an art book in a fancy box) cost $398.98 on preorder with an additional $8 shipping and handling. The ninth movie (Recalled out Summer) cost $69.98 with no S&H.

Kicksville wrote:
Quote:
Yeesh, tough crowd here.


Yes, it is always interesting to see when a show is listed as a "classic" how the naysayers come out in force. I suspect that it reflects the idea that people who are happy with the review don't complain. Personally, I enjoyed the whole series.
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nobahn
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:16 pm Reply with quote
Alan45 wrote:
Personally, I enjoyed the whole series.

As did I.
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Blood-
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Joined: 07 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:49 pm Reply with quote
Alan45 wrote:
Yes, it is always interesting to see when a show is listed as a "classic" how the naysayers come out in force. I suspect that it reflects the idea that people who are happy with the review don't complain. Personally, I enjoyed the whole series.


Personally, I don't think the designation of the series as a classic has any relevance to the range of opinions on display in this thread. I've seen numerous discussions of GoS here at ANN and they all seem to fall into this particular pattern. As much as it is beloved by some viewers, it has never been a franchise that has excited universal appreciation.
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Angel M Cazares



Joined: 23 Sep 2010
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:53 pm Reply with quote
Alan45 wrote:
it is always interesting to see when a show is listed as a "classic" how the naysayers come out in force.

Mmm...I think it depends on the title. If next year someone writes a piece to celebrate the 20th anniversary of the classic Cowboy Bebop, I doubt we would see that many people saying that it is not a classic. Garden of Sinners is a good, interesting and provocative movie series, but to me what ultimately makes something a classic is fan awareness. Up until Amazon started streaming these movies, the only way to watch them was expensive disc sets and pirating.

Perhaps in a few years, when more fans are aware of its existence and watch them, Garden of Sinners could be considered a classic.
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Zeino



Joined: 19 May 2017
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:55 pm Reply with quote
I rather cheated when I watched it by viewing it in chronological order rather then order of release so I don't know if it gave me a much more favorable impression but I was more or less won over to K no K's alienating but beautiful charms right away. It's definitely the overall best of Nasu's works and is tied with Fate/Zero as the best work done by Ufotable as of this date. (Zero may be slightly better written but Sinners has the advantage of being a standalone work that doesn't need to really tie into anything else.) That said, that 8th movie epilogue and 9th movie untold story are the definition of pointless naval-gazing and unneeded respectively.
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Funchal99



Joined: 27 Sep 2016
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:36 pm Reply with quote
Personally, I love this series, including the extra epilogue and Mirai Fukuin. It's just so smart and wonderfully complex (probably the weirdest characters Nasu has ever wrote, and that's saying something considering the original light novels were written way before Tsukihime and Fate) without being pretentious. And ufotable's direction is trully incredible, with many scenes that say it all without heavy dialogue and many, MANY artistic decisions that perfectly tie with the story's themes. I still get goosebumps (you know, the good kind) when I remember Paradox Spiral, easily the best movie from the series in my opinion.

It's perhaps my #1 favorite anime of all time. Seriously great stuff. It may not be for everyone though.
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joeydoa



Joined: 30 Dec 2014
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 6:02 pm Reply with quote
Made it through the first three movies, then asked why am I forcing myself to watch this. Very pretty to look at but overtly dark and depressing worldview. I found it more pretentious than entertaining.
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CatSword



Joined: 01 Jul 2014
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 6:02 pm Reply with quote
I've heard great things about the franchise, but it's hard to get into. I've only watched the first two films, but the first one I would give a weak 7, mainly based on the atmosphere, because I kinda had no idea what was going on. I liked the second one better (I could actually follow the story for one) and gave it an 8.
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ThatMoonGuy



Joined: 13 Oct 2017
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 6:18 pm Reply with quote
"Gothic" is a pretty good word to describe Kara no Kyoukai (and most of Nasu's core work, really) and when I say it I mean it in the more literary asception of the word.
The kind of mystery that this story operates on is not quite like the more investigative kind which you'd see in post-Sherlock Holmes police literature, but harkens back to something akin to Poe in that the mystery itself is not all that important (which is not to say that it's not important at all) but rather that the enigma serves to demonstrate a certain point - both theoretical and emotional.
Also very gothic in the series is the notion of a differing perception which exists within those that are supernatural. Both the mages and natural born paranormals in the series are openly stated to be beings which cannot exist in the normal world for the very moment in which their eyes were opened to the abnormal, they became incapable of returning. In that sense, Nasu works in the framework of the so-called "gotchic body", although here it's more of a 'gothic mind', most clearly shown in Araya's and Touko's mindsets. That aspect of Rakkyo would be inherited most closesly by Tsukihime (which actually went even futher than Kara no Kyoukai in it's XIX century structure and ideas) and DDD while being mostly left out in Fate, which, naturally most strongly resembles the romanesque tradition.
The imagery itself seems to evoke the gothic style, specially in its more supernatural elements, like the ghosts in part I and the apartment building in V. And that's not even getting started on the soundtrack. But what I find noteworthy here is that those gothic ideas are not treated as a mere fetish like in so many works which claim descent mainly from the british tradition. The ideas are updated and merged with other concepts. Thus, we find in a gothic work discussions on buddhist and utilitarian themes. In that sense, I'd liken Nasu to Yoko Taro, who also takes on somewhat classical ideas but does so while inserting new pieces and bits.

On another note, I'd disagree with Ms. Elkens' view on gender roles on this particular work. While it's true that Kokutou takes a role that in most works would be occupied by a feminine character, I do not think that the core of Shiki's development is acceptance of her femininity for that wasn't something which was relevant until a certain event. As I understand it, her masculine behavior is a compensation, yes, but one of a more mournfull nature. Shiki's behaviour is, fundamentally, her trying to fill a void caused by loss and Kokutou, in that sense, 'serves' to fill such void. Shiki's nature is fundamentally feminine and when the compensatory behaviour is no longer necessary, she becomes that girl which she always was. Unfortunately, I do not believe Nasu to be a very gender-conscient author. His works rarely blur the edges between masculinity and femininity and when they do so they don't do it from the same places which some may seem to argue. Like I did (even without commenting) disagree with take on UBW's Shirou/Archer relationship and the remarks on Red Dragon, I do not think that gender-roles play any part on this conflict's development.
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encrypted12345



Joined: 25 Jan 2012
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 7:01 pm Reply with quote
One major flaw of these films is that they don't make it clear how the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception work. You need to read the Tsukihime VN for that. They are also a bit confusing, but they are kind of supposed to be.

Honestly, Nasuverse works tend towards the pretentious, and these movies are probably the biggest example of that. It's a fun pretentious though, and the fact that its a love story at the very center means that even if you don't get everything, you can get the gist of the themes and such.
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Alan45
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 8:12 pm Reply with quote
@angelmcazares & Blood-

I wasn't trying to suggest that Garden of Sinners was perfect or that opinions were unmixed. I was only trying to point out that a very positive review almost automatically brings out the people who disagree (as does a negative review bring out the defenders).

I don't, personally deal in terms like "classic" or "masterpiece". I consider Garden of Sinners excellent, but it is not for everyone. Oh, and since you mentioned Cowboy Bebop, I found that to be watchable, once. I doubt I would ever return to it.
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BlueCatMage



Joined: 19 Sep 2015
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 8:37 pm Reply with quote
I've got a question. For me personally, I liked the movie series overall, but I didn't like how they were out of chronological order. If I decided to go back to rewatch them in the right order, do you think it would make much of a difference?
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Nordhmmer



Joined: 11 Feb 2017
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 8:48 pm Reply with quote
@Blood

Well I'll stop shilling for that site then lol.

One thing I should point out,Shiki only killed one person throughout the entire series,and it's very debatable if he was human at that point.
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Alan45
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 9:10 pm Reply with quote
@BlueCatMage

The second time I watched the show, I made a point to watch in chronological order. I found it much more understandable. It is certainly worth trying.
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Blood-
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 9:26 pm Reply with quote
Nordhmmer wrote:
One thing I should point out,Shiki only killed one person throughout the entire series,and it's very debatable if he was human at that point.


You would almost definitely know better than I would, but I was under the impression that spoiler[she killed (or more accurately "he" killed somebody as SHIKI) before getting hit by a car and going into a coma?] Do I have that wrong?
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