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Last edited by Snomaster1 on Sun Dec 03, 2017 5:22 pm; edited 2 times in total

(DISCLAIMER:Just like with my post on anime couples,this is going to be on a very contentious topic. Please be respectful and try to follow the rules. Like before,the mods will have full discretion here. There'll be no racist talk or anything like that tolerated here. If the mods make a ruling that any commenters think are wrong,PM me and I'll do what I can. But if I discover that they were right then,you're just out of luck. With that out of the way,let's begin.)

Sadly,it seems that these days,we can't escape the grasp of political controversy. There are few avenues for people who don't want to have politics or political arguments invade every aspect of their lives. There is this mindset that every platform must be transformed into a political soapbox and if anyone,no matter their politics must be subjected to it,even if they don't want it or like it.
For years now,this mindset has invaded the arts and entertainment,much to it's detriment. More recently,it's begun to make it's way into anime or more specifically,the way it's dubbed into English. I recently saw a Youtube video on the show "Miss Kobayashi's Dragon Maid" and that in certain episodes,there are references to things like cultural appropriation,slut shaming,or things like patriarchy. This was done in the English version,not in the Japanese version. The original version didn't contain this stuff. Apparently,the people who wrote the dub script thought it would be a good idea to throw stuff like this in there. Was this even necessary?

What's wrong with just having a nice,goofy anime comedy about an ordinary woman who ends up with a dragon who wants to be her maid without political nonsense be thrown into the mix? And,from what I've heard,this isn't the first time it's happened. Another show had a reference to Gamergate thrown in there. And yes,this was only in the English version,not the Japanese one.
Now,I'm not against the expression of political views in art and literature. It's been done since it's beginnings and that sort of expression has it's place. The great ancient Greek playwrights like Aristophanes did that in their works. So did Roman playwrights. The novel "Uncle Tom's Cabin" is a classic version of this. It's an attack on slavery,but has an effective story to back up it's message. Similarly,many of the works of people like Charles Dickens are also great examples of this. They expressed how they felt about things but were able to do it in the way of a great story.

In art,Pablo Picasso's "Guernica" is another great example of this. It's an expression of the outrage against the bombing of that town during the Spanish Civil War. So,if handled well,the artist's or writer's political viewpoint can enhance that work and elevate it to another level. But,what if it's not? What if the political or social point being expressed overwhelms or interferes with the artistic work or piece of literature and weakens it? Then,nobody's going to like it,especially those who have a different view than the artist or writer,and people aren't going to waste their time with stuff like this.
I think this current politicization of a lot of art and entertainment,including anime dubs comes from those who are believers in the 1960's saying "The personal is political." This can be interpreted as believing that everything,including your personal likes and dislikes might be linked to your political beliefs. There's even a strain of thought that believes that every work of art,literature,or whatever else must be seen though a political lens,which is utter garbage.

There are tons of books,films,paintings,comic books,etc that I like that are done by people who's political beliefs are different from mine. I might not agree with that person's politics but if he or she's a darn good artist or writer,and he or she does his or her job well,then it doesn't matter. If he or she doesn't let the message he or she is trying to express interfere with the artwork or the writing,then he or she can hold whatever political views that person likes.
The problem comes when the person doing the work sees him or herself as a political or social activist first and put whatever other considerations to their audience second. Whether that person be a comic,screenwriter,novelist,painter,or whatever else,you must try to put your audience first and make sure what you're trying to say is done in a way that people can at least live with.

I don't like it when art and entertainment are simply seen as political weapons to bludgeon their political opponents into the ground,whether it be from the right or the left. It's the same with anime. The people who do English language dubbing should be very careful. They should be mindful of the creator's original intent and they should be as accurate as possible. Inserting your own political beliefs into a work where it doesn't belong is not a good idea. A lot of people,especially those who agree with you politically might not like it. And,that might harm the product. This politicization of our culture has hurt it and hurt it a lot. There should be places and times where politics should fall by the wayside. Stuff like anime,cartoons or football games don't need political baggage. Politics should stay the heck out of those areas. And,I think we all might be better for it.

Zomg, Snomaster1, you're such a misogynistic, sexist, patriarchial, racist, homophobic, Islamphobic fascist! Wink

I kid.

I see this thread as an example of addressing a "problem" that doesn't actually exist. No doubt there are English dubs that contain contemporary political and cultural references, but I hardly think these dubs are relentlessly political to the detriment of their entertainment value UNLESS you are one of those sensy types who can't stand even a single political reference in your precious animu.

Last edited by Snomaster1 on Sat Nov 25, 2017 4:32 pm; edited 1 time in total

Thanks a lot,Blood-. It's been a while since anyone's responded to a post I wrote! There are a few other posts I did in the Community section that deserve your attention and I hope you read them and comment on them. I appreciate that you did this. Smile

But in all seriousness,I'm not saying that political references shouldn't be in anime at all. What I am saying is that there's a time and a place for certain things. And,in certain anime,I can see where that can come into play. But,there are others that don't need it. "Miss Kobayashi's Dragon Maid" is one of those anime that don't really need that sort of humor.
It should be a fun,silly comedy. It really doesn't need a whole lot of political baggage. Just keep the political stuff to a bare minimum and it should work. While there are political comedies that have lasted a long time,they were done in a way that was entertaining and funny. They struck a balance and made sure that the politics didn't overwhelm or interfere with everything else they were trying to do. With "Miss Kobayashi,"I have a hard time seeing where the political stuff was even necessary.

Right now,there's a lot of anger and protests and everything being turned into a political soapbox. All I'm saying is that there are some things in the world that should remain out of the realm of politics. Anime should be one of those things. Do you get what I'm saying,Blood-?

Oh, I understand what you are saying, Snomaster1. You are very articulate and thorough in your points. We are in the realm of opinion here so there is no right and wrong at play, simply personal preference. Your personal preference is for political references - especially in, say, comedies like Miss Kobayashi's Dragon Maid - to be kept to a minimum. No doubt others would agree. My own take is that I don't find political references to be necessarily objectionable in and of themselves... for me, it's simply a matter of, are they funny or effective in some way? It's just a matter of personal taste.

Last edited by Martin G. on Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:14 pm; edited 1 time in total

Okay, while I don't think it's a good idea for western translaters to cram their political ideas into other people's work I also can understand their wish to do so. Anime these days are often so f...ing sexist and all in all reactionary that it really spoils my enjoyment. While most people who work in the film business in America consider themselves more or less progressive and as some sort of avantgarde the japanese anime industry often seems like the poorly ventilated mancave of a 40-year old virgin still living with his mother. And the societal trend seems to go backwards. Compare for example the recent works of Shoji Kawamori like Macross Delta with his earlier works like Vision of Escaflowne or Macross Plus, hard to believe the same guy is responsible. I can understand someone who is working for a western distributor and wants to try to make some animes less offensive by taking some liberties with the translation but the cases you mentioned seem ham-fisted and annoying. I'm against putting progressive politics into an anime translation but I would agree with toning down reactionary political tendencies of the original like sexism or racism.
But here's an honest question: How many animes do you really know where translators put obnoxious political correctness into the subtitles?

Blood- wrote:

Your personal preference is for political references - especially in, say, comedies like Miss Kobayashi's Dragon Maid - to be kept to a minimum. No doubt others would agree.

So this is an issue with the English dub? If so, the target of the discussion should be foreign licensors not the production committees in Japan. The title of the thread, "The Politicization Of Anime," suggests the politicization is happening in Japan, and I expected to read about issues in the original productions, not Western releases. In general, with obvious exceptions like The Legend of Koizumi or maybe Gatchaman Crowds Insight, anime is pretty apolitical, intentionally so in my mind.

Snomaster1 wrote:

For years now,this mindset has invaded the arts and entertainment,much to it's detriment. More recently,it's begun to make it's way into anime or more specifically,the way it's dubbed into English. I recently saw a Youtube video on the show "Miss Kobayashi's Dragon Maid" and that in certain episodes,there are references to things like cultural appropriation,slut shaming,or things like patriarchy. This was done in the English version,not in the Japanese version. The original version didn't contain this stuff. Apparently,the people who wrote the dub script thought it would be a good idea to throw stuff like this in there. Was this even necessary?
What's wrong with just having a nice,goofy anime comedy about an ordinary woman who ends up with a dragon who wants to be her maid without political nonsense be thrown into the mix? And,from what I've heard,this isn't the first time it's happened. Another show had a reference to Gamergate thrown in there. And yes,this was only in the English version,not the Japanese one.
Now,I'm not against the expression of political views in art and literature. It's been done since it's beginnings and that sort of expression has it's place.

Actually the problem is that those political views are not part of Kobayashi Dragon Maid's writing but were inserted by "translators" who actually modified the work. That's essentially the problem: translators modifying stuff. I hate what Disney have done to Ghibli's english films dubs, essentially destroying the movies' writing in the process.

Anime adaptation is essentially like this, the original, the sub version and the dub version:

The sub version preserves the original but it is not the same experience because it involves a lot of reading, so it's like the painting with some damage. Also, Japanese is a very different language from Indo-European languages so it's translation always involves a lot of "artistic freedom" but usually sub translations tend to be closer to the original meaning. While dubs often destroy the whole anime title, such as the case of Miyazaki's Kiki's Delivery Service and Castle in the Sky, the movie after the dubb is to the original what the third painting is to the first.

@yuna49, I think the lack of politicization in anime is reflected in Japan's lack of politicization. The same party has been running the country for over 60 years so there is little political competition and debate. While it's unemployment rate is around 3% now and has been very low over the past 60 years. Japan, being a rich country with a very stable labor market and low inequality it lacks the level of poverty that you can find in the United States, while other social problems like crime and violence are almost nonexistent and it doesn't have political issues with massive immigration waves like Europe does since Japan lacks a large immigrant population. Finally Japan's native population is ethnically homogeneous so there isn't problems like racism (in the sense of being the existence of tension between different ethnic groups inhabiting the same country). Japan also lacks substantial foreign policy since it's geopolitical role is essentially of being a US base in East Asia and at the same time it lacks serious domestic problems. All these facts combined means that there is very little political material for Japanese fiction to use.

It's easier to make a movie about the political problems of the government of North Dakota than an anime about Japan's political problems.

Not to belittle the stupidity of Prison School, Gal, or Kobayashi's dubs, but dubs have been politicized since they were first conceived. Astro Boy is far different from Tetsuwan Atom if you compare the two versions. When they changed Kasumi in the Pokemon dub from a promiscuous flirt to a GRRL power tomboy it was because of politics. When they changed Roshi in Dragonball from a molestor who groped and motorboated women's breasts to less vulgar things like just asking for a kiss it was due to politics (this change is still in the "uncut" dub of the show to this day). When they changed Zoicite and Fish-Eye from men to women in Sailor Moon it was political. Recoloring characters like Mr. Popo and Rougela from black to blue or purple. Whitewashing characters from Japanese to American. Removing death and religious imagery. It was all politically motivated.

Anyway, it boils down to, dubs are the only way for Americans to influence anime here. American movies, games, and comics are easy enough to infiltrate and create like that from the beginning. Not so with anime, so having dubs act as soapboxes for American writers are the next best thing. Funnily enough, within the last year, Japanese fans have become more and more aware of this stuff happening in the American adaption of Japanese shows and games as more Japanese site report on these kinds of things happening here. You even have blogs dedicated to documenting these things like https://eigo-net-slang-jiten.blogspot.jp/2016/09/s j w.html?m=1 (remove the spaces)

I admit that I'm way too tired and lazy to really delve deep in to this right now. The OP seems to be asking why "political nonsense" must be inserted in to "everything"--particularly anime--even if the original work didn't have anything of the sort, and even when consumers of the work "don't want it or like it".

The short answer: Because those consumers--to include yourself--do not live in a vacuum. Like it or not, you live here and both contribute to, and are affected by, a society where-in those issues are currently relevant--have been relevant for a long time, even, but drawing coverage now in particular for...reasons everyone who doesn't live under a rock in an old, caved-in nazi bunker somewhere in Antarctica knows. That you can even reference things like slut-shaming and cultural appropriation with a straight face suggests to me that you do not, in fact, live under that rock, so please be advised that in recognition of that, I am not here to patronise you, nor to imply that the following is directed specifically at you.

That in mind, I'm just going to say it: The gaming and anime communities have traditionally been near-absolute shit when it comes to socio-political issues because their arguments against them largely boil down to surface-scratching anti-censorship, "cultural differences", or a plain unwillingness to pay mind to things that are bigger than either themselves or said communities and how they affect our society and culture as a whole. Both have a consistent history of tribalism stemming from this ludicrous idea that they are constantly under attack by the mainstream™ in almost the same way gun advocates do. Vegas shooting? Fifty-seven dead? Nah, maaannn, it was another goddamn sting operation to try to assassinate the Second Amendment! Git woke or live in some other third-world shit-hole! Gamergate? More like man-hating, feminazi propaganda to neuter the shit I love, so some snowflakes will stop crying, amirite?

(Hilariously:
>Prides self on taking the piss out of the aforementioned "snowflakes"
>Gets butt-hurt when Wolfenstein is rebooted)

I'd feel bad for the straw-men if this bullshit weren't in legitimate, near-comical existence and I hadn't seen and heard it myself.

Anything that challenges content in their precious fandoms invokes a disproportionately defensive and/or deflective response. This is not true of everybody in these communities, of course--I'm not even keen to say that it describes most--but it's enough of a rampant, long-unchalleged, macroscopic problem that we can dignify dumpster fires with proper nouns like "Gamergate" in the first place.

In this case, some dubbing studios seem to have caught on to this. Given the above and the resulting toxic micro-cultures that spawn in the tumult, and considering again the fact that (unfortunately) none of this happens in some quarantine zone, ham-fisting name-drops of actual shit happening in the world is sometimes the only way to force motherfuckers to pay attention to it--to open up a chance for them to be educated, even if it takes a lot of time and stress to do so. I'm not saying it's the best or only method, nor is the annoyance to some of the rest of us lost on me--especially when trying to escape, catch one's breath, and live. I'm just offering my take on why.

It's there because it's actually relevant, and because the works in question inform the culture whilst the culture informs the works, and vice-versa.

I'm legitimately surprised people still being up Gamergate these days. After how many media outlet personalities who condemned it as anti-woman and wrote hit pieces on it ended up being abusers and rapists themselves, while none of the gators were, it seems like something they'd want to sweep under the rug.

Martin G wrote:

Anime these days are often so f...ing sexist and all in all reactionary that it really spoils my enjoyment. While most people who work in the film business in America consider themselves more or less progressive and as some sort of avantgarde the japanese anime industry often seems like the poorly ventilated mancave of a 40-year old virgin still living with his mother.

The problem with statements like these are half the time a lot of the anime Americans deem sexist are designed or created by women. Even most of the men in charge of those series and designs tend to be married and have kids. Insults akin to them having never seen a woman before or being a virgin are pretty outdated, in all honesty.

Quote:

How many animes do you really know where translators put obnoxious political correctness into the subtitles?

Not counting troll fansubs, a few times I've noticed the official sub uses an odd choice. The subs for Sailor Moon Crystal translated some opening lines to be more feminist than they were originally. Words like okama, nekama, and others have controversal translations in official subs as well, and sometimes get downplayed with 'softer' translations.

-Stuart Smith

Stuart Smith wrote:

The problem with statements like these are half the time a lot of the anime Americans deem sexist are designed or created by women. Even most of the men in charge of those series and designs tend to be married and have kids. Insults akin to them having never seen a woman before or being a virgin are pretty outdated, in all honesty.

The problem with statements like these is that they imply that women themselves are immune to sexism and can't have a hand in spreading it around in cultures that actively normalise it--especially in the context of a commercialised medium.

I'll grant that the assumption that the producers of these works are all forty-year-old virgins is, in itself, problematic, but please understand as well that the, "Well, it was made by a woman; what now?" argument does not hold water for the same reason that, "But black-on-black crime!" is not a valid rebuttal to systemic racism and police brutality as real issues.

Yamamoto Sayo is probably the most-renowned female anime director. What was sexist about Michiko to Hatchin, Lupin III: Mine Fujiko to Iu Onna, or Yuri!! on ICE?

From what I can tell, few women have attained top positions in anime studios and their partners and have little influence over what is produced. Sweeping generalizations like "a lot of the anime Americans deem sexist are designed or created by women" need to be accompanied by statistics, or at least a substantial list of examples. Which shows are you talking about? How much constitutes "a lot?"

yuna49 wrote:

Yamamoto Sayo is probably the most-renowned female anime director. What was sexist about Michiko to Hatchin, Lupin III: Mine Fujiko to Iu Onna, or Yuri!! on ICE?

From what I can tell, few women have attained top positions in anime studios and their partners and have little influence over what is produced. Sweeping generalizations like "a lot of the anime Americans deem sexist are designed or created by women" need to be accompanied by statistics, or at least a substantial list of examples. Which shows are you talking about? How much constitutes "a lot?"

I think he's referring to source material (manga, light novels, et cetera), but indeed, your argument stands regardless.

Gatherum wrote:

The problem with statements like these is that they imply that women themselves are immune to sexism and can't have a hand in spreading it around in cultures that actively normalise it--especially in the context of a commercialised medium.

At that point it just seems like dismissing women who don't agree with a usually male determined definition of sexism. Women who don't fall in line with a specific way of thinking are open to having their beliefs and views belittled. It's a way to undermine and discredit them without actually engaging them.

yuna49 wrote:

Sweeping generalizations like "a lot of the anime Americans deem sexist are designed or created by women" need to be accompanied by statistics, or at least a substantial list of examples. Which shows are you talking about? How much constitutes "a lot?"

It's a bit ironic to list Yamamoto since all three of those works have been called sexist to some degree, but as Gatherum said, that includes mangaka and character designers which are just as, if not more important.

Specific examples? Mayu Shinjo, Naoko Mizuno, Yu Watase, Rumiko Takahashi, Tsunako, Kazue Katou, Kaworu Watashiya, Akira Amano, Naoko Takeuchi, and Tomo Takeuchi. But you don't really need me to list examples. Most shoujo in general gets roasted here for perceived sexism. There was also an article here recently on how Otome games have to be heavily localized to sell here, but then video games have been seeing politicized localizations for decades, long before these current trends with anime dubs. This week alone there's a big stink on American gaming sites over the Xenoblade 2 designs, specifically Tsuki. Since 2 wasn't heavily censored like the previous installment, people are upset at the sexy designs, despite the designs being done by Ebata Risa, a veteran female illustrator, and people are trying to drive her out of the industry for it. The irony is the male character designers on the game made less sexualized designs. But if one follows the ecchi/H community, you would already know a lot of the more talented and obscene artists are women.

Anyway, my main point is there are a large amount of Japanese women that get thrown under the bus for their views. One or two might be able to be explained and argued as outliers, but when so much of an industry disagrees with those views, then it's clearly an issue of culture difference.

-Stuart Smith

I'd certainly agree that Japanese culture displays a greater degree of sexism than we see nowadays in advanced industrial countries, though I have read a number of articles suggesting the current contingent of younger Japanese women aspires to have careers and focus less on being housewives or even wives at all.

You list female authors and manga-ka and talk about videogames, but the subject of this thread is anime. I stick to my contention that women play only a small role in this industry, certainly when we're talking about senior people like producers and directors. Take the idealized world of Shirobako. How many women were depicted in senior positions? The only one I can think of is an illustrator in her thirties, but she's not in a decision-making role beyond reviewing the drawings for which she is responsible. The executives, producers, directors, and representatives of other members of the production committees are all men.

Aside from Yamamoto, the best-known, and certainly most controversial, woman in anime today is probably Okada Mari. I'm mixed on her work, but shows like Mine Fujiko and AKB0048 are full of strong women and girls with agency.

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