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Answerman - Is It Worth Seeing 35mm Prints of Ghibli Movies?


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StudioToledo



Joined: 16 Aug 2006
Posts: 847
Location: Toledo, U.S.A.
PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:52 am Reply with quote
Polycell wrote:
(And yes, there probably is something wrong with you; I've never ever heard of somebody getting sick from 24 FPS)

Certainly not me either. That is rather odd such a thing exists for regular film projection since that has never been an issue to my knowledge (unless it involves strobic patterns like flashes for a visual effect, and even then, that's only an issue for those with epileptic conditions).
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Frenzie



Joined: 08 Sep 2017
Posts: 11
PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:16 am Reply with quote
Odd, I was wondering why you misunderstood me but it's my own fault! Laughing I wrote "practically made me feel nauseated" but I didn't mean that I actually felt nauseated or about to pass out. I should have written "practically made me feel [or rather: think] [as if I was] nauseated." Think of it like how on a train you can shortly be under the impression that you're moving in the opposite direction than you actually are, except the entirety of film is a sensory illusion of sorts so that analogy breaks down a bit too quickly.

Some moving shots are so blurry that I think there must be something wrong with me, but a quick look away from the screen suffices to assure that it's the projection and/or the film itself that's wrong.

It doesn't actually make me feel sick, but one time when I passed out from pain my vision took on a quality similar to that before fading white. It wasn't very different either when going under narcosis in the hospital. I suppose if you never experienced losing your consciousness you wouldn't know what I'm talking about.

Anyway, I think that before Jurassic Park I'd only seen a few cartoons in theater (Little Mermaid, Beauty & the Beast) and what I probably failed to convey is that Jurassic Park is the first time I remember seeing this. It hasn't bothered me intellectually since because it's just how it is, but I've always thought of a lot of motion blur as a displeasing bug, not a feature. It's possible that it's more of an issue with the physical properties of film and exposure time than with framerate though.
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StudioToledo



Joined: 16 Aug 2006
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Location: Toledo, U.S.A.
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:29 pm Reply with quote
Frenzie wrote:
Odd, I was wondering why you misunderstood me but it's my own fault! Laughing I wrote "practically made me feel nauseated" but I didn't mean that I actually felt nauseated or about to pass out. I should have written "practically made me feel [or rather: think] [as if I was] nauseated." Think of it like how on a train you can shortly be under the impression that you're moving in the opposite direction than you actually are, except the entirety of film is a sensory illusion of sorts so that analogy breaks down a bit too quickly.

I suppose I don't really noticed that visual problem at all, but I've been near-sighted for most of my life so none of that was an issue for me. I suppose I'm not susceptible to that sort of thing you notice. I know some people find it difficult being near a Cathode-Ray tube due to the sort of sounds it emits that isn't audible for most.

Quote:
Some moving shots are so blurry that I think there must be something wrong with me, but a quick look away from the screen suffices to assure that it's the projection and/or the film itself that's wrong.

There's nothing wrong with the blur as far as movement is concerned. While I suppose it has a different to it from reality, it still relies heavily on retina retention combined with the the shutter blade of the projector lens (as that's also an issue too).

Quote:
It doesn't actually make me feel sick, but one time when I passed out from pain my vision took on a quality similar to that before fading white. It wasn't very different either when going under narcosis in the hospital. I suppose if you never experienced losing your consciousness you wouldn't know what I'm talking about.

Never had that at all, thankfully.

Quote:
Anyway, I think that before Jurassic Park I'd only seen a few cartoons in theater (Little Mermaid, Beauty & the Beast) and what I probably failed to convey is that Jurassic Park is the first time I remember seeing this. It hasn't bothered me intellectually since because it's just how it is, but I've always thought of a lot of motion blur as a displeasing bug, not a feature. It's possible that it's more of an issue with the physical properties of film and exposure time than with framerate though.

Being one of the elders here, I recall my earliest animated film in theaters probably being Bambi or Snow White in the early 80's. Seeing things too sharp and fluid just doesn't work for me as it's probably the opposite of what you feel (nauseating in this case).
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leafy sea dragon



Joined: 27 Oct 2009
Posts: 7163
Location: Another Kingdom
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:13 pm Reply with quote
StudioToledo wrote:
Being one of the elders here, I recall my earliest animated film in theaters probably being Bambi or Snow White in the early 80's. Seeing things too sharp and fluid just doesn't work for me as it's probably the opposite of what you feel (nauseating in this case).


Yeah, you can see it reflected today in video games too: They intentionally put in motion blur now because, without it, it can be disorienting and can make the movement appear choppier than it actually is. (You encounter this the most in racing games.)
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Frenzie



Joined: 08 Sep 2017
Posts: 11
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 3:27 am Reply with quote
StudioToledo wrote:
I suppose I don't really noticed that visual problem at all, but I've been near-sighted for most of my life so none of that was an issue for me. I suppose I'm not susceptible to that sort of thing you notice. I know some people find it difficult being near a Cathode-Ray tube due to the sort of sounds it emits that isn't audible for most.

I wouldn't generally call it difficult, but count me in on that one. Surely the worst models must have been audible to all? It's much like how some (cheaper?) phone chargers make a horribly annoying noise like one of those "mosquito" repellents. They're more like me repellents of course; I don't think the mosquitoes even care.

Most chargers are only audible if you come within less than a meter and only annoying if you get closer than 20 cm or so. CRTs are generally similar and only audible from up close, especially in newer TVs and computer monitors. (Where by newer I mean '90s.)

In the kitchen I have a few ancient fluorescent tubes and they emit a low humming noise very similar to that of CRTs, but more annoying because it's louder. Bad CRTs can sometimes include an annoying high-pitched noise as well.

leafy sea dragon wrote:
Yeah, you can see it reflected today in video games too: They intentionally put in motion blur now because, without it, it can be disorienting and can make the movement appear choppier than it actually is. (You encounter this the most in racing games.)

I've definitely liked the motion blur effect in some games (like Need for Speed: Most Wanted and Burnout for the original Xbox) but as a rule of thumb I prefer to disable those blur and bloom effects due to overuse. Not to mention that you need a stronger GPU, thus enabling them can lead to actual noticeable choppiness. (There's no difference when your GPU is strong enough for it not to really matter.) In the current decade that's been less of an issue, but I've never seen it as anything other than an aesthetic choice.

Btw, people write papers about this sort of thing. These researchers found no difference either. I vaguely wonder if there are any who did. Smile
https://people.csail.mit.edu/lavanya/PDF/sharanetal13_MIG.pdf

Incidentally, gamers think that my preference for UHD is a "serious concession" because there's no such thing as 120 Hz or 144 Hz UHD displays. They swear by 144 Hz@1440p and I can't blame 'em since fast-motion games look better that way. But while I do occasionally play a game on it, my monitor's not for gaming, I'm more into adventure games anyway, and sharper text is worth much, much more than frame rate.

(Another thing some gamers can get upset about wrt UHD is playing at a lower resolution, like 1080p, to attain playable frame rates… maybe it's some kind of generation gap.)
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leafy sea dragon



Joined: 27 Oct 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 5:27 pm Reply with quote
Frenzie wrote:
I've definitely liked the motion blur effect in some games (like Need for Speed: Most Wanted and Burnout for the original Xbox) but as a rule of thumb I prefer to disable those blur and bloom effects due to overuse. Not to mention that you need a stronger GPU, thus enabling them can lead to actual noticeable choppiness. (There's no difference when your GPU is strong enough for it not to really matter.) In the current decade that's been less of an issue, but I've never seen it as anything other than an aesthetic choice.

Btw, people write papers about this sort of thing. These researchers found no difference either. I vaguely wonder if there are any who did. Smile
https://people.csail.mit.edu/lavanya/PDF/sharanetal13_MIG.pdf

Incidentally, gamers think that my preference for UHD is a "serious concession" because there's no such thing as 120 Hz or 144 Hz UHD displays. They swear by 144 Hz@1440p and I can't blame 'em since fast-motion games look better that way. But while I do occasionally play a game on it, my monitor's not for gaming, I'm more into adventure games anyway, and sharper text is worth much, much more than frame rate.

(Another thing some gamers can get upset about wrt UHD is playing at a lower resolution, like 1080p, to attain playable frame rates… maybe it's some kind of generation gap.)


1080p is a lower resolution now? 1080 is about the resolution on the laptop I'm using to type this message, and it's the resolution I have on my TV--there's no point in me getting anything with a higher resolution because there's a sharp increase in price with, personally, negligible benefit. Of course, I am also the sort to just go with whatever is the default settings unless I have a problem with it. (That being said, the TV I have most of my game systems on is actually in SD, with an HDMI-to-composite converter, because the HDMI is broken and I don't feel like paying for a new TV. I'll live with playing in SD.)

Sonic Heroes is an example of a game where a lack of motion blur became a problem: It was designed with 60 frames per second in mind, but the PlayStation 2 version could only run at 30. (They tried, but Sonic Team couldn't find a way to make it run at 60 fps without making it look like garbage.) The other versions looked fine, but because of the reduced amount of motion blur compared to games like Sonic Unleashed or even Sonic 2006 (both of which, despite their many gameplay flaws, ran at 60 fps on every system they were for), every individual frame was perceptible to an observant human eye whenever Sonic and the others were moving at high speeds. That is, they stopped looking like movement and more like a series of images.
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StudioToledo



Joined: 16 Aug 2006
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Location: Toledo, U.S.A.
PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 3:14 am Reply with quote
At a certain point, I would say there is a reason for "diminishing return" when it comes to how far we've gone in wanting perfection to the point of unlimited possibilities. I guess this is why I stopped caring altogether about this.
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