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INTEREST: C93: The Corporate Booths Reveal How Anime is Now Mainstream


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Meongantuk



Joined: 03 Jun 2016
Posts: 353
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:31 pm Reply with quote
jr240483 wrote:
VanGosroth wrote:
Quote:
Anime has become mainstream without sacrificing any of its niche appeal.




What a load of BS






HARDLY!



in japan , its anything but BS. though the only people who tend to say that are those that consider the US fanbase "western barbarians"



though its a massive surprise that a majority of those companies are even in comiket. ESPECIALLY CLAMP OF ALL COMPANIES! that most of what they sell over there are ero fandoujins of their products and just like naoko , CCS's author and clamp in general aren't a fan of comiket and have done their damnest to keep ero doujins of their series out of there.



i mean works from akamastu yes, but i would have told anyone that their trolling hard if they had told me that official clamp titles, including those of CCS were going to be in any comiket at all.



though i can see some legway since most of the well known mangaka's like akamastu got their start from comiket and the ero circles that started it all.


Why so surprising? Hentai isn't the only thing (nor the "most") in Comiket. It's a self-published works convetion afterall.
Companies use Comiket to advertise (usually showing by PVs of their upcoming anime), since the comiket goers are part of their target audiences.

It's silly if Clamp don't allow extra advertisement in the place where they used to play around making BL doujins back when they're still amateur. It's not like there weren't any ero doujin back in the day CLAMP still attend Comiket in the 80s.

Hell, ZUN's dislike for Touhou hentai isn't secret. But he's still there every year sitting in his booth. Because he know that even those hentai artists are still Touhou fans who buys Touhou games from his table.

To the participant (be it some no name artists, popular animators, well known illustrators) of Comiket there's just no benefit acting like a hypocrite holier-than-thou. They have benefited from that side, some directly and some other indirectly.
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reanimator





PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:52 pm Reply with quote
leafy sea dragon wrote:
reanimator wrote:
Other than legal issue, I think the one reason why Western media companies don't tolerate fan-made items is that there are many unscrupulous, undisciplined, and out-of-control people who'll stop at nothing to make bucks from derivative works even with set-rules. Even though places like conventions have self-policing which limits such method, but there are some opportunists out there who'll print and sell stuffs indefinitely as long as there is demand.

For Comiket's case, fan artists have implicit agreement among the community and companies which allows them to print and sell very limited copy of derivative fan works. Plus it's the Japanese dojinshi artists who complain about unscrupulous foreigners trying to sell e-book version of scanned dojinshi on Amazon without artists' permission. Artists themselves are following the rule, but unscrupulous foreigner are not and thus making artists look bad.


Hmm, is that why imported doujinshi are so hard to find?

Certainly, that reminds me of how a lot of manga artists have a rule that you cannot take photographs of them, but that only provokes people into trying to take secret photographs. I mean, there's an entire industry centered around taking secret pictures of celebrities here (just this past summer, there was a controversy about paparazzi climbing the fences and trees into George Clooney's property to take pictures of his newborn son, which Clooney was very unhappy about). We want rebellion, and we want scandal.


Yes. imported dojinshi's are hard to find simply because fan artists/circles limit their quantity and they don't do reprints of old ones. As other have stated that Japanese fan artists aren't out there to make profits, so limited quantity and no reprints keep them out of legal trouble and keep fan fiction market thriving.

Plus, unless there are numerous sequels already made for a popular franchise, the popularity lifespan of typical Japanese youth media is short. Most of them last from few months to few years. So there is no point of trying to sell 1000 copies of a fan fiction when there are other fan artists are doing the same thing with the same title. If you only sold 100 copies out of 1000 copies, then what are you going to do about remaining 900 copies? Internet is not going to help to sell them fast and selling that much copies only raise alarm to original copyright holders. Dojinshi resellers like Toranoana might accept few copies, but not whole 900+ copies as their space is limited.

Due to high population density and close proximity, it makes sense for manga artists to protect their privacy as much as possible. Think about it, who knows some crazy fanboy/ fangirl might live in the next door or in the same neighborhood where manga artist lives. We're talking about Tokyo here. It's not because artists are shy. If those crazy fans know artists' location or face in detail, then they could cause trouble such as making death threats against manga artist or his family simply because the manga artist killed off a likable character in his story. Even worse, a look-alike person could get mistaken as the artist and that could create another set of trouble.


Last edited by reanimator on Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:46 am; edited 1 time in total
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leafy sea dragon



Joined: 27 Oct 2009
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:20 am Reply with quote
dark_bozu wrote:
Booth babes... Yeah, I remember how much of them was on games conventions/expo like e3 years ago. Too bad there's none now.


Why is it too bad? It's not like they had anything to do with the video games and such being promoted there. They were just there to lure men over.

Meongantuk wrote:
That sounds like a bunch of self-entitled prick than actual fan. The opposite of what the culture is about, love and respect to support their favorite series. Mind you, I don't know much about My Little Ponies, so idk about what Hasbro did to earn the bronies ire. But still, not even supporting the thing they love, I suppose they don't mind if MLP never seen the light of the day again.


There are many reasons why one would have a grudge against Hasbro, though nearly all of them do boil down to "stick it to the Man." (Though it can be hard to tell genuine hard feelings from excuses and justifications for just not buying anything, the reasons I've seen include a perceived low quality and off-model nature of official merchandise; the idea that fanfiction and fanart are of a higher quality than the show; some pretty strong dislike of particular staff members, episodes, and/or characters, which really came to light after the divisive third season finale; being fans of the fans or of socialization, like at conventions, and not actually being that interested in the show; and the fact that Hasbro is a big conglomerate toy company with a greater focus on mergers and acquisitions than any other toy company.) This is a textbook case of why some western companies are scared of the monetary trade of fan-created content, and why I find it interesting Hasbro lets it happen: These fans in question are buying fan-created content instead of official content, which, based on what people are saying in this topic, doesn't happen to quite the same extent in Japan.

There is also a general dimmer view of merchandise in western culture than in Japanese culture under the concept of "selling out." Lauren Faust got a LOT of flak when she made it public she was going to make a My Little Pony show simply because it's a merchandise-based franchise, which she had never worked on prior (Powerpuff Girls became merchandise-based after she started writing for it, though they overlook the fact that Faust's dream project, Milky Way and the Galaxy Girls, is intended to have a toy line and was designed with one in mind). All in all though, it IS a bunch of fan grandstanding.

For the record, regardless of the fandom, the ones who refuse to pay money to the company that makes the material really don't mind if the official stuff ends, as long as the fan stuff continues. I mean, the Tolkien fans continue to make fan material even if there hasn't been any new official material in over a century, not including adaptations. That's really more an exception though, considering that I think most fans, including content creators, are tied to the official stuff, and when the official stuff ends, a lot of them will leave.

+ 光 wrote:
I don’t have any sales numbers to prove this, so take what I’m about to say with the pinchiest pinch of salt you want to.

I follow a lot of Japanese, Korean, and more international artists on Twitter, and I found that the people who buy official merchendise, also buy fan-made merchendise. What stops anyone from supporting both?

I mean it’s a different story if you only had...say like 5$ and can only buy one thing. Would you buy for e.g a fan-made key chain or an official key chain? For me it depends on the art, really. I’d lean more to the official.

[Edit] just had a light-bulb moment: Maybe why Japanese companies and creators are to a certain extent chilled with fan content being sold, is because they know that the person selling their goods will reinvest their profit made into buying official merchendise. I mean, if the fan artist loves the franchise to that extent, and I believe they do, if they’re willing to create content of it - content that sells. So yeah, it all comes around in the end.

(If not, at least fan content also creates brand awareness)


Yeah, logically, that is what you'd expect a fan to do: They really like the source material and the fan-created content would be seen as more of the material, even if it's unofficial. But the reality is that people often don't think logically, and the more emotion-driven a person's decisions are, the less logical they're likely to be.

Really, it depends on individual preferences. You have the people who go to a western convention and spend nearly all their time at Artist's Alley. That means they're fans of particular fanartists or would prefer to socialize with them than any other group of people at a convention. You have the people who go to look for official merchandise and largely ignore Artist's Alley. And you have the people who go to both.

I'm guessing that there are far fewer fans of fans in Japan (and other Asian countries) than in western fandoms, and that the people who go to Comiket to buy doujinshi are people who are also fans of whatever the doujinshi is based on (assuming it isn't an original concept), rather than the fans of the doujinshi creators specifically.

HeeroTX wrote:
My understanding of these two franchises (I'm not a fan of either) is as follows:
-Touhou is as close to "open source" IP as possible. I think, like Hatsune Miku, part of why it has BECOME so popular is due to all the fan-creations. If the original creator is able to make 1% of the total market from his own works, then its probably worth it in comparison to what would have happened without all the fan works.
-Kantai Collection, from what I know (which is next to nothing) the IP owners are the GAME creators, and thus their money is from in the game. As such, all the fan works are just "free" advertising. That's not to say they don't have ANY official merch, but I think that's not their core product, just ancillary revenue.


I take it, then, that the people who buy fan-made Kantai Collection stuff, for the most part, are actually playing the game? I suppose the fact remains that Touhou, officially, is a one-person production, so it wouldn't take that much revenue for him to pay the rent and his bills.

reanimator wrote:
Yes. imported dojinshi's are hard to find simply because fan artists/circles limit their quantity and they don't do reprints of old ones. As other have stated that Japanese fan artists aren't out there to make profits, so limited quantity and no reprints keep them out of legal trouble and keep fan fiction market thriving.

Plus, unless there are numerous sequels made for a popular franchise, the lifespan of typical Japanese youth media is short. Most of them last from few months to few years. So there is no point of trying to sell 1000 copies of a fan fiction when there are other fan artists are doing the same thing with the same title. If you only sold 100 copies out of 1000 copies, then what are you going to do about remaining 900 copies? Internet is not going to help to sell them fast and selling that much copies only raise alarm to original copyright holders. Dojinshi resellers like Toranoana might accept few copies, but not 900+ copies as their space is limited.

Due to high population density and close proximity, it makes sense for manga artists to protect their privacy as much as possible. Think about it, who knows some crazy fanboy or fangirl might live in the next door or in the same neighborhood where manga artist lives. We're talking about Tokyo here. It's not because artists are shy. If those crazy fans know artists' location or face in detail, then they could cause trouble such as making death threats against manga artist or his family simply because the manga artist killed a likable character in his story. Even worse, a look-alike person could get mistaken as the artist and that could create another set of trouble.


What DO they do with the remaining 900 unsold prints? Are they shredded and recycled as paper? (Unless you mean that people rarely print more than a few hundred copies of a doujinshi at a time.)

Say, that reminds me--at one of my previous jobs, due to its location, we would occasionally get famous people as customers and clients. With the exception of champion snowboarder Shaun White (who proclaimed his presence at the store to all of the visitors and staff as he entered), these celebrities really enjoyed being treated like a normal person and intentionally kept a low profile. However, I know that, due to the nature of their line of work, they have to have lots of photos taken by the press and by attendees at events and conferences; and I also know that some people want to become famous for the publicity and attention.

That being said, I can recall Kinuhiko Inoue, Tite Kubo, and to a lesser extent Hiro Mashima as manga artists who love to be out in public and get attention drawn to themselves, and they haven't really gotten into much trouble (well, the sort of trouble that could harm them). And, well, A-list actors and musicians get plenty of crazy fans who might harm them (like how Mick Jagger was punched in the face and almost shot at the Altamont Free Concert), and they continue to be very public figures.
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Łukasz Kawosz



Joined: 11 Jul 2017
Posts: 77
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:54 am Reply with quote
TheCanipaEffect wrote:
I mean, it's literally the most neutral stance when hiring booth babes have been banned in anime conventions throughout the US and Europe because of sexual harassment.


Anyhow I don't like how people are assuming things everywhere are like in their own countries therefore things in their countries need to be like in my country.

Like how there's now medial scandal about blackface in Japanese TV when there wasn't zero bad will or racist conocations and the issue is only because America and British used to abuse black epople.

Besides, booth babes in anime conventions are replaced by cosplayers who are willing to wear lewd costumes for free.

Chrono1000 wrote:
I read over a dozen blogs by people that are very much offended by ecchi shows despite the fact that they are completely animated due to the male gaze, objectification, and other such words. The loss of booth babes is small potatoes compared to the future problems we will see at Western conventions when people start protesting the presence of content that they consider offensive.


This is what I am dreading the most. If anime is going to turn soon into completely inoffensive uncreative slog like modern western cartoons due to outrages and self censorship, might as well just stop follow anime at this point and keep rewatching and discovering older shows.

I mean how many times have you seen comments about Made in Abyss being problematic and pedophilic when removing those weird scenes would remove a good chunk of subtle character development and world building.
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Meongantuk



Joined: 03 Jun 2016
Posts: 353
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:39 am Reply with quote
leafy sea dragon wrote:

Yeah, logically, that is what you'd expect a fan to do: They really like the source material and the fan-created content would be seen as more of the material, even if it's unofficial. But the reality is that people often don't think logically, and the more emotion-driven a person's decisions are, the less logical they're likely to be.

Really, it depends on individual preferences. You have the people who go to a western convention and spend nearly all their time at Artist's Alley. That means they're fans of particular fanartists or would prefer to socialize with them than any other group of people at a convention. You have the people who go to look for official merchandise and largely ignore Artist's Alley. And you have the people who go to both.

I'm guessing that there are far fewer fans of fans in Japan (and other Asian countries) than in western fandoms, and that the people who go to Comiket to buy doujinshi are people who are also fans of whatever the doujinshi is based on (assuming it isn't an original concept), rather than the fans of the doujinshi creators specifically.

Not really, they're a lot of that type too. But again, unless you're like super popular most will still search for the fandom stuff.

The companies Comiket's corporate booth do have their own strategy with their limited metchandise. They merch isn't only well merchandise like accessory but also stuff like artbook and material book. Especially if it's anime studio booth you can get your favorite anime from few season ago;s animation book if you're lucky. Something you don't usually find in the participant booth,

Quote:
What DO they do with the remaining 900 unsold prints? Are they shredded and recycled as paper? (Unless you mean that people rarely print more than a few hundred copies of a doujinshi at a time.)


The only people who print hundreds (or even thousands) are the most popular folks.
Less popular artists usually only print less than 100 or 50. Even with mail order service, sometimes it'll take few events (or worse, never) to sell all of them.

To give you idea, printing comic costs around 250-400 yen per copy, sold at 600-700 yen. Acrylic merch (like keychain) costs around 800 yen. Coupled with the profit limit by Comiket I mentioned before (10k yen) it's difficult to achieve hundreds of copies if you only rely on fanwork unless your doujinshi is photocopy quality (which is as bad as it get). And they use their own money. 10k may not look like big money, but it's still a lot of money to gamble.

The first rule to self publishing is to know your wallet and popularity limit, Even without the profit limit it's foolish to print hundreds of copies without taking your own popularity into account. Though, if you have that much money to blow sure.

What happened to the unsold stuff you ask? Collecting dust at the side of your booth table until they get sold someday....

Quote:
That being said, I can recall Kinuhiko Inoue, Tite Kubo, and to a lesser extent Hiro Mashima as manga artists who love to be out in public and get attention drawn to themselves, and they haven't really gotten into much trouble (well, the sort of trouble that could harm them). And, well, A-list actors and musicians get plenty of crazy fans who might harm them (like how Mick Jagger was punched in the face and almost shot at the Altamont Free Concert), and they continue to be very public figures.


Japanese values their privacy more than the western does. It's disrespectful to take photos of people without consent regardless where you are. Mangaka who shows their face is still considered a small minority compared who don't.

In the case of Doujin artist, most don't want to reveal their face (and private stuff) unless they make it big. They still shows up in events like Comiket but it doesn't mean they want their photos got spread around the world. Remember, many of these people are NOT earning their living from doujin, they have job outside the creative world (like office worker) which is where they got money to make stuff. Moreover, the stigma with otaku still persist to this day, there are chances of them getting into trouble with their boss (or fired) if their identity got exposed.
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HeeroTX



Joined: 15 Jul 2002
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:09 am Reply with quote
Meongantuk wrote:
Japanese values their privacy more than the western does. It's disrespectful to take photos of people without consent regardless where you are. Mangaka who shows their face is still considered a small minority compared who don't.

Semi-related, it always interests/amuses me to see Japanese cosplayers and photographers exchange business cards after taking photos at Comiket. It's also impressive in comparison to US anime conventions that cosplayers only pose for pictures in the designated areas and not all over the floor. (the crowd doesn't really allow for it anyway)
leafy sea dragon wrote:
I take it, then, that the people who buy fan-made Kantai Collection stuff, for the most part, are actually playing the game?

If I had to guess, I'd say no, but they DO keep it in the public consciousness and maintain interest in it. What's the "typical" lifespan for that kind of game? (honest question, I have no idea) KanColle is almost 5 years old now. That's pretty impressive for what started as an adobe flash game.
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Chrysostomus



Joined: 11 Mar 2015
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:39 pm Reply with quote
Łukasz Kawosz wrote:
Anyhow I don't like how people are assuming things everywhere are like in their own countries therefore things in their countries need to be like in my country.
Indeed, the implication that booth babes are "obsolete" in US conventions implies that the Japanese are simply not as morally enlightened as us superior Westerners.

What an imperialistic view to hold.
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reanimator





PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:26 pm Reply with quote
leafy sea dragon wrote:
What DO they do with the remaining 900 unsold prints? Are they shredded and recycled as paper? (Unless you mean that people rarely print more than a few hundred copies of a doujinshi at a time.)


Yes, it's the latter. Artists print only a few hundred copies of dojinshi at at time so that less hassle to deal with boxes full of unsold copies. Also too much sale gets unwanted attention from copyright holders.

leafy sea dragon wrote:
That being said, I can recall Kinuhiko Inoue, Tite Kubo, and to a lesser extent Hiro Mashima as manga artists who love to be out in public and get attention drawn to themselves, and they haven't really gotten into much trouble (well, the sort of trouble that could harm them). And, well, A-list actors and musicians get plenty of crazy fans who might harm them (like how Mick Jagger was punched in the face and almost shot at the Altamont Free Concert), and they continue to be very public figures.


I used death threat as an extreme example to point out importance of privacy when living in dense areas. Manga artists live in regular housing like any other normal Japanese and it's not like they're living in a gated community with security guards as A-list celebrity, right? In worst cases, they're likely to get followed by some crazy fans when their popularity is at the highest. Still, no one wants some grown men (fans) loitering around his/her home for autographs or some nosy neighbor making gossip blown out of proportion. Going out public once in a while for a meet & greet and doing short TV appearance are nice for artists, however they don't want their private lives exposed too much to public since their own people (Japanese fans) will tear the artist viciously if artist's activity don't meet fans ideal image.
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leafy sea dragon



Joined: 27 Oct 2009
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 12:49 am Reply with quote
Meongantuk wrote:
Not really, they're a lot of that type too. But again, unless you're like super popular most will still search for the fandom stuff.

The companies Comiket's corporate booth do have their own strategy with their limited metchandise. They merch isn't only well merchandise like accessory but also stuff like artbook and material book. Especially if it's anime studio booth you can get your favorite anime from few season ago;s animation book if you're lucky. Something you don't usually find in the participant booth


That's also pretty interesting. Are there just fewer fans of fans in Japan? (As far as Japanese fanartists go, I am a fan of Gashi-Gashi, for instance, and if I were to go to Comiket and he was there, I would seek him out specifically to buy stuff from him.) Because whenever I visit an Artist's Alley at a western convention (regardless of if it's anime or something else), unless it's just a tiny little one consisting of 3 booths or so, they typically gather a crowd of people who specifically come to Artist's Alley--if they aren't already fans of particular artists, many are looking to become fans of the artists. That is, fans of fans are pretty major things in the west. The fandom for Steven Universe is a pretty good example, with prominent creators among the fandom, though that partially stems from a lack of official merchandise for the show (which is a recurring thing with Cartoon Network--they don't do much merchandising relative to Nickelodeon or Disney Channel or any similar networks focusing on animated programming, so fans of Cartoon Network's shows tend to wind up like this). Relatively speaking, that is. I can easily find cheap blind bags and such, but there is almost no merchandise aimed at the dedicated fan.

Perhaps you're right--if better, higher quality merchandise comes around, maybe even the Bronies will be less biased against it. I mean, I would consider myself a fan of the show and I have a lot of official merchandise (most of which are the type that a lot of the fans think aren't official), though I am still a bit apprehensive of saying that to some of the more...rabid fans of fan-created content. And it's what eventually happened to the Star Trek fandom, and to a lesser extent, the Harry Potter fandom (though there is still much profit to be had simply from sales of the books).

Meongantuk wrote:
The only people who print hundreds (or even thousands) are the most popular folks.
Less popular artists usually only print less than 100 or 50. Even with mail order service, sometimes it'll take few events (or worse, never) to sell all of them.

To give you idea, printing comic costs around 250-400 yen per copy, sold at 600-700 yen. Acrylic merch (like keychain) costs around 800 yen. Coupled with the profit limit by Comiket I mentioned before (10k yen) it's difficult to achieve hundreds of copies if you only rely on fanwork unless your doujinshi is photocopy quality (which is as bad as it get). And they use their own money. 10k may not look like big money, but it's still a lot of money to gamble.

The first rule to self publishing is to know your wallet and popularity limit, Even without the profit limit it's foolish to print hundreds of copies without taking your own popularity into account. Though, if you have that much money to blow sure.


Ah yes, I kind of forgot about the expenses of self-publication, as I have worked in some jobs that go through large amounts of paper every day and just saw buying printing paper and other supplies as a necessary business expense. It'd make sense, then to start out small and only spend more to print more stuff for next time if you find yourself running out of material to sell.

HeeroTX wrote:
If I had to guess, I'd say no, but they DO keep it in the public consciousness and maintain interest in it. What's the "typical" lifespan for that kind of game? (honest question, I have no idea) KanColle is almost 5 years old now. That's pretty impressive for what started as an adobe flash game.


I see. I was thinking in terms of the newer Sonic the Hedgehog fans, many of whom have never played a Sonic game in their lives, let alone bought (or had their parents buy) any of the video games. Heck, the rise of YouTube as a means of watching game footage has created a snew group of fans who may mingle with other fans and buy fan-created content but will never play the games, but I see it more pronounced with Sonic than I do with any other game franchise.

I also thought that Kantai Collection has a very low financial barrier of entry and thus it wouldn't take much effort for a fan to play the game. But then, perhaps I'm seeing it from the wrong perspective.

reanimator wrote:
Yes, it's the latter. Artists print only a few hundred copies of dojinshi at at time so that less hassle to deal with boxes full of unsold copies. Also too much sale gets unwanted attention from copyright holders.


All right. I think I got it now. Artists at Artist's Alley at western conventions do the same, printing out only small amounts, though I suppose there's a difference in that some Artist's Alley artists will print out more when needed whereas it sounds like the doujinshi artists at Comiket print them all out at once and that it isn't easy to run to the shop and print some more (or have a friend do it).

reanimator wrote:
I used death threat as an extreme example to point out importance of privacy when living in dense areas. Manga artists live in regular housing like any other normal Japanese and it's not like they're living in a gated community with security guards as A-list celebrity, right? In worst cases, they're likely to get followed by some crazy fans when their popularity is at the highest. Still, no one wants some grown men (fans) loitering around his/her home for autographs or some nosy neighbor making gossip blown out of proportion. Going out public once in a while for a meet & greet and doing short TV appearance are nice for artists, however they don't want their private lives exposed too much to public since their own people (Japanese fans) will tear the artist viciously if artist's activity don't meet fans ideal image.


Thinking about it, I think it may be more related to introversion versus extroversion. From what I've gathered about Japanese culture, introversion is highly valued, whereas in North America, extroversion is highly valued. Johnny Carson is a good example of both: His brand of comedy often got him death threats and many other forms of harassment, but he never stopped being a public figure. And this is in spite of him actually being quite shy and introverted--in order for him to succeed in the world of stand-up comedy and acting, he had to pretend to be an extrovert while in public so as not to make his audiences feel distrustful of him. After every public performance, he had to spend the rest of the day winding down by himself because, as an introvert, as his work took a tremendous mental strain on him.

But I think the core difference is that showbiz, including voice acting and illustrative work, bring in different kinds of people between east and west. I mean, people in American comic books like Rob Liefeld, Alan Moore, and Mark Millar get lots of unwanted attention from fans too, both those who adore them and those who want them dead, but they remain in the public eye, go to conventions where they know people will take pictures of them, and such. And introverts have a tougher time getting hired for work in the first place because the job-hunting, interview, and portfolio systems favor those who will enthusiastically jump into the spotlight and speak what they want to say. People like Eiichiro Oda and Kazue Kato are excellent manga artists, but I doubt they'd survive the American interview process. They'd just be seen as too quiet and too awkward before they could really show off their skill.
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Meongantuk



Joined: 03 Jun 2016
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 6:29 am Reply with quote
leafy sea dragon wrote:

That's also pretty interesting. Are there just fewer fans of fans in Japan? (As far as Japanese fanartists go, I am a fan of Gashi-Gashi, for instance, and if I were to go to Comiket and he was there, I would seek him out specifically to buy stuff from him.) Because whenever I visit an Artist's Alley at a western convention (regardless of if it's anime or something else), unless it's just a tiny little one consisting of 3 booths or so, they typically gather a crowd of people who specifically come to Artist's Alley--if they aren't already fans of particular artists, many are looking to become fans of the artists. That is, fans of fans are pretty major things in the west. The fandom for Steven Universe is a pretty good example, with prominent creators among the fandom, though that partially stems from a lack of official merchandise for the show (which is a recurring thing with Cartoon Network--they don't do much merchandising relative to Nickelodeon or Disney Channel or any similar networks focusing on animated programming, so fans of Cartoon Network's shows tend to wind up like this). Relatively speaking, that is. I can easily find cheap blind bags and such, but there is almost no merchandise aimed at the dedicated fan.

Hmm, I still not exactly sure what this "fans of fans". Aren't those considered fan of the artist? There are plenty of them everywhere even on Comiket.

But strictly buying from fanartist without touching the official stuff (like not watching or buying the book)? I get it if they're not available or too expensive otherwise... Well, there probably some but not as notorious and probably can't really considered fans of the series. Also probably because most anime don't rely on merchandise at least not as much as in the west seeing most anime are adaptations. They would care more about the source material's sale (which is where the original creator got most of their money).

Quote:

All right. I think I got it now. Artists at Artist's Alley at western conventions do the same, printing out only small amounts, though I suppose there's a difference in that some Artist's Alley artists will print out more when needed whereas it sounds like the doujinshi artists at Comiket print them all out at once and that it isn't easy to run to the shop and print some more (or have a friend do it).

I think even AA artists (or any indie artist in general) tend to print all in one go since they're cheaper that way, It's just the number is small and most artist won't be able to sell all of them in one go anyway, that's why it keep appearing on subsequent events if the fandom still popular enough.
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leafy sea dragon



Joined: 27 Oct 2009
Posts: 7163
Location: Another Kingdom
PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 1:30 pm Reply with quote
Meongantuk wrote:
Hmm, I still not exactly sure what this "fans of fans". Aren't those considered fan of the artist? There are plenty of them everywhere even on Comiket.

But strictly buying from fanartist without touching the official stuff (like not watching or buying the book)? I get it if they're not available or too expensive otherwise... Well, there probably some but not as notorious and probably can't really considered fans of the series. Also probably because most anime don't rely on merchandise at least not as much as in the west seeing most anime are adaptations. They would care more about the source material's sale (which is where the original creator got most of their money).


When I mean "fans of fans," there are two such groups, though they're related and the net result to the company is the same:
1. There are, as you mentioned, people who are fans of particular creators, whether they be artists, fanfiction writers, bloggers, critics and reviewers, web video makers, and such. I realized about this group firsthand after I put up gameplay videos of Sonic games onto YouTube and discovered that the majority of the people who watch them have never played a Sonic game before, and instead get their knowledge of the games entirely through these gameplay videos. A good example is Team Four Star, the creators of the Dragon Ball Z Abridged videos. Though they cross over very much with fans of the material they're parodying, there are a good amount of their audience who familiarize themselves with the series they're parodying through these parodies. That is, they don't watch anime. They watch Team Four Star's Abridged. (Though that would be the equivalent of getting your news through The Daily Show, which Jon Stewart and Trevor Noah have both blasted viewers for doing.) That being said, Team Four Star has connections to companies like FUNimation, so buying from them also puts money into the industry.
2. And there are people who join a fandom not for what they're a fan of, but to socialize, make friends, and get caught up in the moments. You can see that in major western anime conventions like Anime Expo and Otakon, as well as the many Comic-Cons scattered throughout: Many of the attendees to these conventions have never watched, played, or read anything that the convention is about, but they might consume a lot of fanfiction, look at and buy a lot of fanart, and so forth, and they choose to do so because it's easier to get close to the creators of fan-created content than creators of the official stuff. These people are fans of fans not in how they're drawn to specific people, but the fact that a fandom is a group of people with a common interest. They are social butterflies for a solitary activity. (They are the people you see at conventions who engage in small talk with random attendees, panelists, and artists, the ones who obviously have no clue what they're talking about but love to chat.)

In both cases, the company wouldn't receive much money from these groups. If they buy anything, they will buy fan stuff instead of the official stuff. That's why I find it interesting the doujinshi trade can thrive in Japan. It sounds like this sort of behavior is rare there, where people buy fan stuff without much interest in official stuff, as it sounds like these "fans of the artist" become as such due to what the artist takes from rather than the artists themselves.

That is, I think it's telling that artists at Comiket are assigned stations based on what it is they're making fan material of, whereas western Artist's Alleys have no such organization but are instead each individually named in the convention's program guide in alphabetical order. That is, Comiket's structure is based on, "Are you looking for fan material of (franchise)? Go over here," whereas western Artist's Alley structure is based on, "Are you looking for (specific artist)? He or she is at this booth." (Though that may be because Artist's Alley artists are not tied to any specific franchise, and to survive, most artists need to make art of many different things.)

Meongantuk wrote:
I think even AA artists (or any indie artist in general) tend to print all in one go since they're cheaper that way, It's just the number is small and most artist won't be able to sell all of them in one go anyway, that's why it keep appearing on subsequent events if the fandom still popular enough.


I've known a handful who have brought along high-quality printers so they could print out more when needed. They only print out a small amount (as in the single digits), then print out more as the time goes by and they run out of particular things. And I've known some other people who were paid by the artists to go run out to Kinko's or Office Depot and such to go print out more. That being said, I mainly see this at Artist's Alleys at huge conventions, the ones with hundreds of booths, where tens of thousands of people browse through the aisles. I'd imagine smaller ones don't have this sort of activity. (The smallest Artist's Alley I've seen was 3 booths in size, and it was pretty clear almost none of the attendees were interested in unlicensed fan-created content.)
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KH91



Joined: 17 May 2013
Posts: 6176
PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 6:21 pm Reply with quote
SUGOI! Dat Sho-bitch and StB artwork. Smile
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Lord Oink



Joined: 06 Jul 2016
Posts: 876
PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 7:08 pm Reply with quote
leafy sea dragon wrote:

1. There are, as you mentioned, people who are fans of particular creators, whether they be artists, fanfiction writers, bloggers, critics and reviewers, web video makers, and such. I realized about this group firsthand after I put up gameplay videos of Sonic games onto YouTube and discovered that the majority of the people who watch them have never played a Sonic game before, and instead get their knowledge of the games entirely through these gameplay videos. A good example is Team Four Star, the creators of the Dragon Ball Z Abridged videos. Though they cross over very much with fans of the material they're parodying, there are a good amount of their audience who familiarize themselves with the series they're parodying through these parodies. That is, they don't watch anime. They watch Team Four Star's Abridged. (Though that would be the equivalent of getting your news through The Daily Show, which Jon Stewart and Trevor Noah have both blasted viewers for doing.) That being said, Team Four Star has connections to companies like FUNimation, so buying from them also puts money into the industry.
2. And there are people who join a fandom not for what they're a fan of, but to socialize, make friends, and get caught up in the moments. You can see that in major western anime conventions like Anime Expo and Otakon, as well as the many Comic-Cons scattered throughout: Many of the attendees to these conventions have never watched, played, or read anything that the convention is about, but they might consume a lot of fanfiction, look at and buy a lot of fanart, and so forth, and they choose to do so because it's easier to get close to the creators of fan-created content than creators of the official stuff. These people are fans of fans not in how they're drawn to specific people, but the fact that a fandom is a group of people with a common interest. They are social butterflies for a solitary activity. (They are the people you see at conventions who engage in small talk with random attendees, panelists, and artists, the ones who obviously have no clue what they're talking about but love to chat.)


Those kinds of mindset are distinctly western. Obviously artists have fans, but the idea they would be more popular or more important than the source material is something only westerners exhibit. It's the same notion whenever people get upset Nintendo doesn't worship LPers or streamers and insist games like Mario and Pokemon are only popular because of RandomDude78's Let's Play of it. Personally, I find it extremely sad that YouTubers can draw a bigger crowd at a western anime or game convention than the people who made the anime/game. But no, you'll never see people like the DBZ and YGO abridgers being hailed as more important than the original creators in Japan. I'm sure in Japan if an artist was told that by a fan, they'd feel insulted, or at least just disagree, given how humble they tend to be.
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Meongantuk



Joined: 03 Jun 2016
Posts: 353
PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 8:38 pm Reply with quote
leafy sea dragon wrote:

When I mean "fans of fans," there are two such groups, though they're related and the net result to the company is the same:
1. There are, as you mentioned, people who are fans of particular creators, whether they be artists, fanfiction writers, bloggers, critics and reviewers, web video makers, and such. I realized about this group firsthand after I put up gameplay videos of Sonic games onto YouTube and discovered that the majority of the people who watch them have never played a Sonic game before, and instead get their knowledge of the games entirely through these gameplay videos. A good example is Team Four Star, the creators of the Dragon Ball Z Abridged videos. Though they cross over very much with fans of the material they're parodying, there are a good amount of their audience who familiarize themselves with the series they're parodying through these parodies. That is, they don't watch anime. They watch Team Four Star's Abridged. (Though that would be the equivalent of getting your news through The Daily Show, which Jon Stewart and Trevor Noah have both blasted viewers for doing.) That being said, Team Four Star has connections to companies like FUNimation, so buying from them also puts money into the industry.

There are plenty of these (especially in Touhou)

Quote:
2. And there are people who join a fandom not for what they're a fan of, but to socialize, make friends, and get caught up in the moments. You can see that in major western anime conventions like Anime Expo and Otakon, as well as the many Comic-Cons scattered throughout: Many of the attendees to these conventions have never watched, played, or read anything that the convention is about, but they might consume a lot of fanfiction, look at and buy a lot of fanart, and so forth, and they choose to do so because it's easier to get close to the creators of fan-created content than creators of the official stuff. These people are fans of fans not in how they're drawn to specific people, but the fact that a fandom is a group of people with a common interest. They are social butterflies for a solitary activity. (They are the people you see at conventions who engage in small talk with random attendees, panelists, and artists, the ones who obviously have no clue what they're talking about but love to chat.)

This one, while many, not the kind you usually see in Comiket due to it require a certain amount dedication to get inside. well, they can go at noon where the line became less intimidating (to non-existence) though.

In both cases, the company wouldn't receive much money from these groups. If they buy anything, they will buy fan stuff instead of the official stuff. That's why I find it interesting the doujinshi trade can thrive in Japan. It sounds like this sort of behavior is rare there, where people buy fan stuff without much interest in official stuff, as it sounds like these "fans of the artist" become as such due to what the artist takes from rather than the artists themselves.

That is, I think it's telling that artists at Comiket are assigned stations based on what it is they're making fan material of, whereas western Artist's Alleys have no such organization but are instead each individually named in the convention's program guide in alphabetical order. That is, Comiket's structure is based on, "Are you looking for fan material of (franchise)? Go over here," whereas western Artist's Alley structure is based on, "Are you looking for (specific artist)? He or she is at this booth." (Though that may be because Artist's Alley artists are not tied to any specific franchise, and to survive, most artists need to make art of many different things.)
Not Really, even in comiket at most you're divided by what you make (BL/R18/Music/Original etc), You'll still searching by artist' name. Unless you belong in fandom with hundreds or thousands of circles like Kancolle which get their own place. Back in its early days they do it like in AA but had to change it due to the influx of the circles (there are like what? 10k?). Other doujin convention still do the AA way.since they don't have to deal as many circle participants as Comiket.

Quote:
I've known a handful who have brought along high-quality printers so they could print out more when needed. They only print out a small amount (as in the single digits), then print out more as the time goes by and they run out of particular things. And I've known some other people who were paid by the artists to go run out to Kinko's or Office Depot and such to go print out more. That being said, I mainly see this at Artist's Alleys at huge conventions, the ones with hundreds of booths, where tens of thousands of people browse through the aisles. I'd imagine smaller ones don't have this sort of activity. (The smallest Artist's Alley I've seen was 3 booths in size, and it was pretty clear almost none of the attendees were interested in unlicensed fan-created content.)

that method only effective if your wares are art prints or posters which don't take much time to print. Stuff like comic or anything inside CDs would be difficult.
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TarsTarkas



Joined: 20 Dec 2007
Posts: 5821
Location: Virginia, United States
PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:32 pm Reply with quote
leafy sea dragon wrote:
They were just there to lure men over.

Nothing wrong with that. Men like being lured.
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