Forum

whiskeyii wrote:

So I'm going to quote two things you said because I think they're relevant to each other:

Ryutai wrote:

Apparently, you missed my point. I didn't mean to say people shouldn't relate their experiences to a work of fiction, but they shouldn't speak about that work of fiction projecting in it things that never happened. But if for example someone is waiting a happy or negative ending about the romance, disregarding the actual contents of the series, based only on their personal experiences and wishes, well I think their attitude is wrong. This means you are not following the story at all, but only creating your own fanfiction.

Ryutai wrote:

Unlike you, I don't think comments like "My relationships with men way older than me had been terrible, so I think Akira shouldn't be with Kondo" are relevant for discussing the actual contents of the show, and understanding what is actually happening. Wink

I think I finally understand. You do not like to discuss anything outside of the episode itself in relation to the show; that includes any hopes, fears, worries, and/or desires for the ending or the rest of the series.

No, people can discuss about those aspects but if they are elaborating according to what the show is telling us, not according to what their boyfriend way older than them did to them. Personal blogs exist to tell your personal life, not anime communities.

Quote:

I could not for the life of me understand why you seemed to be picking on Coup d'État for such an old post, even though she a) was polite, b) gave a very valid reason for why parts of the show made her uncomfortable, and c) actually LIKED the show. But now I think I see that the part you actually disliked was her hope for the show's eventual ending because the ending literally has not happened yet.

I don't CARE if she likes or dislikes the show, but her motivations for being relevant to the discussion shouldn't be related to her personal life, rather than to what we are seeing in the show. She said she doesn't want Akira ending up with Kondo because personally she has had bad relationships with men way older than her, I would find her post as much as non-sense if she had said she wants Akira ending up with Kondo because she has a wonderful husband way older than her.

Quote:

I'm not saying your approach is wrong, exactly, but since many people post what they want to see in the future alongside their opinion of an episode, I think it might lead to a frustrating discussion for you. ^^;

If their opinions are actually related to what we see, I don't see any problem. But it's completely absurd speaking about the developments of the plot ignoring the plot and from the point of view of personal experiences.

Finally, we have people how iatheia who think to be morally superior to the ones who are trying to enjoy what this story is actually telling us, saying that she/he doesn't want that relationships between teenagers and people way older than them are "normalized", despite the fact this show DIDN'T NORMALIZED this kind of relationship, but she/he can't know it since she/he admitted to have already DROPPED the show around episode 3 or 4, so everything she/he is writing is completely IRRELEVANT to the progression of the story, and to how the author is dealing with this delicate topic.
We can see also in this latest episode like in-universe, exactly like in real life, also a form of friendship between a teenager and a person of the opposite sex way older than her isn't socially acceptable (see the reaction of the old owner of the bookstore), we have already seen the same reaction at the Garden from Kubo. The show is saying to the viewers in all the possible ways that, for society, no matter what, any form of connection between Kondo and Tachibana isn't acceptable. We see how this connection is based on genuine empathy, but nobody outside them could see it that way. Including some viewers that think this kind of thing could never happen in real life, because it should absolutely include some form of exploitation from the man's part, and this is actually paranoia, because not every man is some kind of monster.
The show already made clear this story is about healing, and not a "pure romance", or we wouldn't have the strong topics of depression, failed dreams and friendship, that are actually what is connecting the two characters.
This story is about the journey of these two towards a more positive view of life, and they can learn from each other exactly THANKS to their age gap, because Kondo has the background that Akira needs to face her current fears, and Akira's experience and youth have the power to revive in Kondo the hopes that he lost in his life.

This is called actually discussing about the show, according to what we see in it, and at this point it's absolutely legitimate for anyone of us expressing hopes about the ending, both in the terms positive for the romance, AND in terms negative, but only if you are expressing these hopes in relation to the actual contents of the show, and not according to whatever happened to you, your brother, your best friend, that is completely IRRELEVANT.

Ryutai wrote:

Terrible90sDub wrote:

The only person who was doing that has been quiet during the current dumpster fire. The current argument is more along the lines of "this could still potentially hurt her even if he's means well"... which, is technically possible if the series does take a sudden turn towards the romantic. I'm not saying I completely agree with that line of thought, as I think their future relationship could be more positive, negative, or a near equal mix, but it is a valid point.

This is what she had written in one of her earlier posts:

Coup d'État wrote:

Eh. I think they're trying to show how creepy the scenario would be in a real world setting. Because, obviously that didn't happen in the show, but imaging how that mother would react if she any clue about what's going on. I don't think she'd like it.

Honestly, the only reason for me to watch this show is that I can emphasize with the teenage girl, since I, too, was once a teenager with crushes on (and relationships with) much older partners. That means that I can relate to Akira, because I've been there. But because I've been there (and went way farther that Akira with it) I know how deeply unsettling it is in real life. The idea to emphasize with the adult man's point of view is disturbing to me. However, the show/ manga is seinen, not shojo, so that's that.

Now, that doesn't make the show bad. I like it quite a bit, actually. But the "sweet, innocent" relationship it portrays is very much wrong in my eyes, and I hope Akira grows out of it in the end.

so, she is speaking about the show according to her experiences with men way older than her, rather than about the actual contents of the show, and this kind of attitude is wrong.

Can you please stop making up a reality about me that is neither true nor grounded in anything I've actually written?
I've never said I was a woman, I never said my exes were men, and I definitely never said that I was exploited, which you also assumed.

Quote:

In this specific case, if an age gap love story reminds someone of a personal situation of exploitation

It is, however, telling that you arrived at these 3 specific conclusions. Also, it is not "wrong" to read a story according to one's own experiences. "Death of the author" is a thing. I watch (and like) the show for what it is, and I'm as much allowed to express my thoughts about it as anyone else.

Quote:

You aren't different from some women who I saw to consider this story garbage, if Kondo and Akira won't be together, just because in their case, they are self-inserting in Akira, and since their own relationship with a man older than them didn't work, they want to dream with this story.

I never said the show was garbage unless we get one, specific, Coup d'État-approved ending. I simply stated a preference, that ironically, according to spoilers spoiler[seems to align with the manga's ending.] So, all is well?

Quote:

You are projecting your romantic personal experiences with older men into this show, but this isn't what you are supposed to do, because it isn't speaking about YOU.

Again, where do you get any of that? Because you surely didn't get it out of the two short comments I made in this thread. I don't understand why you're projecting so hard into this, you wrote more posts at greater length about me than I did.
My point is simply that relationships with such a big age-gap are not healthy for the younger participant, regardless of the older person's intent. No exploitation needed. My biggest issue with the show is how they gloss over that.

Now, you're free to disagree with that opinion. That's the thing about opinions, they are not necessarily fact and people with different experiences often hold opinions that differ accordingly. There is no reason to be this personal about this. I also don't appreciate to be told what I'm "supposed to do", especially when I didn't harress, harm or insult anyone.

@Coup d'État

Again, nobody CARES about your personal experience, no matters if you are a man or a woman. And if you think this show isn't treating properly the problem of the age gap, you are missing so many points, exactly how I wrote.
I don't care if YOUR relationships with your older female partners weren't sweet and innocent, could you only try to comment what we see in the show? You clearly implied your relationships weren't platonic, of course they weren't innocent. But why should we care about your stuff?

Since the first volume of the manga, I was hoping for an ending where the two main characters WON'T end up together, simply because I understood THE REAL PROBLEM of Tachibana, who induced her obsession in Kondo. About the actual ending of the story (huge spoiler) spoiler[I already read the summary of the final chapter, and it's damn poignant, but not because they didn't end up together, this was obvious since the BEGINNING to me, but because I feel bad for Kondo. When I saw that Chihiro Kujo won the Akutagawa prize, I cried a bit. And while Kondo decided with great maturity, for the sake of Tachibana, to sever any bond with her, the fact he didn't have the courage to read her letter hurt me a bit. It looks like reading her words could be painful for him. This ending was bittersweet, and very mature, exactly what I was expecting from this story.]

Edited for overquoting. --willag

Ryutai wrote:

This is called actually discussing about the show, according to what we see in it, and at this point it's absolutely legitimate for anyone of us expressing hopes about the ending, both in the terms positive for the romance, AND in terms negative, but only if you are expressing these hopes in relation to the actual contents of the show, and not according to whatever happened to you, your brother, your best friend, that is completely IRRELEVANT.

I see. Well, my mistake, but I strongly disagree with you; I think people's personal experiences will always inform how they view a show, so if someone had a real-life experience that impacts their perception of this show, they should be--and are--free to express that in these forums. It's not like people can just turn off their feelings when they watch a show. And I don't see any real difference between saying "Hey, X makes me uncomfortable because I experienced Y" and "Well, X doesn't make me uncomfortable because I never experienced Y"; they're just polar opposite opinions.

Also, I apologize to Coup d'Etat; I apparently misread your post as stating that you too had been a teenage girl involved with older men, so my bad.

Last edited by Panino Manino on Mon Mar 19, 2018 7:27 pm; edited 1 time in total

Terrible90sDub wrote:

^ I absolutely reject the idea that people shouldn't insert their own personal experiences into fiction. In fact, that relation to fiction is what makes it interesting a lot of the time, as nothing exists in a vacuum separate from reality. Everything is shaped by personal experiences and culture. Since so much in Kondo's story in particular revolves around literature-- this is how you can get two separate takes on the same "pure literature" work, and typically both takes will be considered valid so long as you can manage some kind of logical or relevant support for your argument, and that support isn't always based only in the source material.

The flip of this would be people liking something because they relate to the experiences in fiction positively, should that also not be a valid reason for liking any work?

In my why of thinking, I believe that you may project the work ON YOU. It would be called "empathize", with the story, situations, characters, their feelings.
But you may not project YOU ONTO the work. You can't just ignore what actually happens scene by scene and rewrite the story and character actions and motivations to fit your preconceived interpretation/conclusion, which is what many are doing with this anime, talking about things that we all are seeing aren't true.
I say that even if you "question" Kondo's behavior you should first try to sympathize more with him, understand the character, not condemn him just because you "disprove". "Faults" in characters makes them better character, not just villains, no matter how bad a past experience you may had have that puts you on guard. To reinforce with an example, the "forgiveness" that he felt in this episode coming from Akira was the most that he could ever want from her. Why was he "leading her" this whole time? Was for a nefarious intent or just a desire to be understood and accepted? Which one? Can't any of you agree that "the danger already passed"? You may had suspicious, doubts, fears, as you had all the right to have, but... any of that turned to be true? Can any of you honestly say after this episode that there's anything really bad or negative in their relationship? Can any of you deny that both are having a positive effect in the other's life?
Honestly, I could have said much more about this story, how I can also relate with many little things and scenes but... it's embarrassing. Embarassed

I believe that great part of my annoyance is because of this, it's a good story that I can relate and wanted to be comfortable to talk about (in a foreign forum specifically for "reasons") but I couln't, because people keep insisting about things that don't belong in this story (and somethings apparently questioning my morals).

iatheia wrote:

And I do not want the idea of the age gap relationship with someone who is a teenager and a person more than twice her age to be normalized. I don't want that at all.

Dare I say... "you should know better by now"? Rolling Eyes

The greatest irony of this all is that if people didn't keep telling us to shut up, I suspect many of us wouldn't feel the need to speak out quite to the same degree. I wouldn't have felt the need to engage in this thread at all if it wasn't for the few disparaging remarks in the first couple of pages.

Panino Manino wrote:

Can't any of you agree that "the danger already passed"? You may had suspicious, doubts, fears, as you had all the right to have, but... any of that turned to be true?

Honestly...yes. To my surprise, this series turned out to be fairly benign, though I can only say that now as this anime draws to a close. I actually held out on watching this show until very recently exactly because I was worried it would pull an Usagi Drop and sour any positive experiences I might have had otherwise, and I didn't want to be disappointed again.

However, I think with a more lenient reviewer, I would have remained wary, and it's only in part because Gabriella has been so vigilant in keeping an eye out for problematic elements (and calling them out as they occur within the show itself, like Akira's pushiness) that my opinion was swayed. Without it, I think I would've always been wondering if maybe the next episode, or the one after that, was going to pull a last-minute twist.

Panino Manino wrote:

"Faults" in characters makes them better character, not just villains, no matter how bad a past experience you may had have that puts you on guard. To reinforce with an example, the "forgiveness" that he felt in this episode coming from Akira was the most that he could ever want from her. Why was he "leading her" this whole time? Was for a nefarious intent or just a desire to be understood and accepted? Which one? Can't any of you agree that "the danger already passed"? You may had suspicious, doubts, fears, as you had all the right to have, but... any of that turned to be true? Can any of you honestly say after this episode that there's anything really bad or negative in their relationship? Can any of you deny that both are having a positive effect in the other's life?

I'm not sure if you intended to make this look like it's directed partially at me or not, as I don't believe I've ever said anything of the sort, and my previous few posts were more defending the idea that people are allowed to post negative opinions and/or make analysis based off their own experiences even if I didn't particularly agree with them.

I decided this was unlikely to take a turn for the worst fairly early on, and am not even fully supporting the idea that age gap romances always end in misery. The majority of them seem to, but there are success stories where both individuals are happy far into the future, although the only positive ones I know of involve cases where the younger individual was an adult by the time they started dating. In ATR's case, I would be a bit concerned over how Akira doesn't appear to have ambitions outside of track (which few people make a career out of) and Kondo, which would really limit her world if such a relationship were to take place. (She seems to do this naturally regardless, but having a family at a young age with the added issues of how they're in different places in life would make it worse.) However, as I've said before, that seems extremely unlikely to happen, and yes, they've both impacted each other positively in a platonic way, and I especially like how this also inspired them to reconnect to past friends, albeit ones they still have rocky relationships with, at the same time.

So far, there's more resistance to people posting their criticisms or concerns for the show than anyone posting positives about it. I'm not saying you definitely won't be rebuffed by someone for posting everything you want to say about it, but that seems to apply to most people posting anything at any given time on the internet.

I find really curious how some people need the "approved by the reviewer" mark, to be able to understand the true nature of a story. It's puzzling.
Anyway, I doubt that this manga has any chance to be published in North America, considering how problematic it is for most of the North American audience. It looks like North America needs to censor some kinds of content, no matter which is the execution. I believe this is really disturbing for the freedom of speech in a Country.

@Panino Manino: I totally agree with you, especially about how people are writing their own fanfiction based on their personal experiences, ignoring the true plot, but apparently we are the only ones that find this kind of approach absurd.

Ryutai wrote:

I find really curious how some people need the "approved by the reviewer" mark, to be able to understand the true nature of a story. It's puzzling.

Because I value my time and reading reviews of someone who usually aligns pretty well with my worldview is much shorter than watching the show, and if it takes a turn for the creepy then I know not to waste my time on it. I mean, that's like asking why anyone reads reviews at all.

whiskeyii wrote:

Because I value my time and reading reviews of someone who usually aligns pretty well with my worldview is much shorter than watching the show, and if it takes a turn for the creepy then I know not to waste my time on it. I mean, that's like asking why anyone reads reviews at all.

Well, everyone is free to do whatever he wants, of course. In my case, I read reviews to confront my opinion with other people's opinion, simply. I trust my critical skills and I don't want to be influenced by the others to the extent that a review is enough to decide if I must watch a show or not.

iatheia wrote:

The greatest irony of this all is that if people didn't keep telling us to shut up, I suspect many of us wouldn't feel the need to speak out quite to the same degree. I wouldn't have felt the need to engage in this thread at all if it wasn't for the few disparaging remarks in the first couple of pages.

Discussions are by their very nature action-reaction. Yes, of course a reply tends to instigate another. I find the notion that the pearl clutchers and cringers wouldn't have had much to say if it wasn't for those of us who roll our eyes at this strain of commentary pretty laughable.

@ Ryutai - I would not completely discount the manga eventually coming out in NA. Manga and anime actually tends to fly under the awareness of the cultural gate keepers on both the right and the left who sqwawk when their taboos are tweaked so you can't assume something won't get picked up due to certain sensitivities.

Blood- wrote:

@ Ryutai - I would not completely discount the manga eventually coming out in NA. Manga and anime actually tends to fly under the awareness of the cultural gate keepers on both the right and the left who sqwawk when their taboos are tweaked so you can't assume something won't get picked up due to certain sensitivities.

Considering how most of the North American audience reacted to the premise (omg, so creepy!), the North American publishing house that will have "the courage" to publish this manga, will waste a lot of money. Laughing

Keep in mind that Bunny Drop manga got released in full here.

When I think of countries where nothing with potentially problematic relationships could ever be published thanks to concerns posted on social media, I definitely think of the countries that have been obsessed with Game of Thrones for years.

Forum - View topic
EP. REVIEW: After the Rain

The ANN Aftershow - Will You Watch Solo Leveling Season 2?

Dark Moon: The Blood Altar Volumes 1-2 Manhwa Review

Interview: Voice Actors Rika Hayashi and Hiroki Tōchi Talk About Their New Golf Anime, Tonbo!

Japanese TV Special Ranks Top Anime Songs, as Chosen by Foreign Fans

This Week in Anime - So, Is Sound Euphonium Queerbaiting or Not?

Wonderful Precure! Episodes 1-12 Anime Review

That Time I Got Reincarnated as a Slime: The Ways of Monster Nation Manga Ends Due to Artist's Health

Dead Dead Demon's Dededede Destruction Part 1 Anime Film Review

Eiyuden Chronicle: Hundred Heroes Game Review

Forum - View topicEP. REVIEW: After the Rain

Forum

Forum - View topic
EP. REVIEW: After the Rain