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DuskyPredator wrote:

Thank you, this is why some of us reacted so strongly when the main reviewer of the series makes a post about how they see the series as some insensitive attack on homosexuals.

Welcome to Entertainment in the Digital Age, where a story isn't just a story it has to have some deeper connection and meaning to both everyone and no one at the same time.

stilldemented wrote:

I'll confess to feeling like a bit of an odd duck, but...

I don't really get any sense of the show advocating or condoning anything. It isn't speaking to anything other than its universe. We can take whatever we will away from that, but I don't perceive anything about this show as holding a mirror up to the world as we know it. Certainly not with any sense of admonishment.

As Dusky said, far from being odd, I think this is actually a very common reaction to FranXX, and many of us came away with the same feeling.

But there's also a group of folks who feel that FranXX is a work of political propaganda, with strong messages villainizing the left (essentially because its villains are driven in part by 'left' values taken to extremes & in some cases distorted, w/ some claims that the villains' agenda is meant to be an especially monstrous re-imagining of ideas maintained by modern gender theory), and in particular making negative statements and/or not especially caring about the LGBTQ community/people (all the Ikuno stuff). So, conversation has revolved around the legitimacy of those complaints, and a whole lotta digging into FranXX's many symbols in an effort to puzzle out whether they can actually reasonably be said to do that of which they've been accused.

It's also probably to be expected that we'd spend a whole lot've time digging through metaphors in a show chock full of symbolism, even if the symbolism's largely (as some of us think) apolitical, muddled, and not of any particular pertinence to the real world.

We get answers next episode it seems, nice

Ep. 19 Preview
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNwt_jFjT9w

DuskyPredator wrote:

stilldemented wrote:

I'll confess to feeling like a bit of an odd duck, but my interpretation of the series is that the show isn't particularly engaged with saying anything political per se. It's vague. I don't see it as much of a focal point, and I get the impression that it isn't really one of the themes that the show considers important moving forward. It feels more like a plot device than anything else at present.

I've just been skimming the conversations in this thread. I think the points being made intrigue me. They also perplex me as I just don't really understand how we haven't been able to parse all this out by now.

I'm more of the persuasion that Franxx is a dystopian love story that packages its themes around love, coming of age, sex, trust, life, feelings, and challenging authority. It's just packaged in this weird world where human-like adults have evolved/advanced in such a way that they no longer need anyone or anything. So much so that emotions are defects, copulation is primitive, and cohabitation is an apathetic tradition.

And so I feel that it is within the realm of expectations for the plot beats to challenge that system. What if someone wants to question this system? What if someone wants to have a child? etc.

I don't really get any sense of the show advocating or condoning anything. It isn't speaking to anything other than its universe. We can take whatever we will away from that, but I don't perceive anything about this show as holding a mirror up to the world as we know it. Certainly not with any sense of admonishment.

Perhaps I'm simply taking it at face value, but idk, Darling in the Franxx seems straightforward. It's all the discussion/controversy around the show that makes me scratch my head. Anime dazed

.

With that noted, I'm enjoying the show. There's been a lot of foreshadowing that Zero Two or Hiro or both won't be alive at show's conclusion. Possibly more. There's been too much talk about kids not becoming adults, living your life to the fullest, and what have you for the show not to shoot a smoking gun. I don't want it to happen, but it is to be expected. Sad

Thank you, this is why some of us reacted so strongly when the main reviewer of the series makes a post about how they see the series as some insensitive attack on homosexuals. No exaggeration, the mere fact Ichigo treated Ikuno like anyone else and not special, meant that the show was being ignorant of the trouble that gay people go through.

That these kids putting so much importance on piloting (incorrectly so for happiness as focused on lately) requiring a male and female pair, meant that it was hateful to LGBT people. That the apparent villains oppressing groups that included heterosexuals (or any sexuals) meant that it was being hateful, because some people in real life oppress others for not being heterosexual. That Mitsuru not turning out to be gay after saying once that he wanted to pilot with HIro as a kid, without likely having any context of what piloting even was, meant that the show was being offensive.

I think the reason why some folks reacted so strongly goes back to a problem I have had with Franxx since the beginning; With all the sexual imagery, why are they taking themselves so seriously?

If it's that straightforward as @stilldemented says then I'm not sure how this makes the show "deep" or different then other mecha or hell other anime that came before it. The show so far has just felt really standard.

I don't think it is especially deep or stand-out. It's crowded with a lot of symbolism and procreative/sexual imagery, but a lot of the ideas are ambivalent or ambiguous and the pacing is really awkward.

I'm not sure what that has to do with taking itself "seriously," though? I personally prefer fiction that commits fully to its universe and tries to preserve a sense of verisimilitude.

FackuIkari wrote:

We get answers next episode it seems, nice

Ep. 19 Preview
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNwt_jFjT9w

It looks like a lot of questions will get answered. spoiler[The backstory for Dr. Franxx, the formation of the APE council, the discovery of magma energy, the creation of the Franxx, the creation of the Klaxosaurs, and the creation of the Klaxosaur princess. It is good to see that these questions are about to get answered since a lot of original anime productions will save the big reveal until the second to last episode.]

NeverConvex wrote:

I don't think it is especially deep or stand-out. It's crowded with a lot of symbolism and procreative/sexual imagery, but a lot of the ideas are ambivalent or ambiguous and the pacing is really awkward.

I'm not sure what that has to do with taking itself "seriously," though? I personally prefer fiction that commits fully to its universe and tries to preserve a sense of verisimilitude.

That's cool but for me that sense of verisimilitude is then broken by the show having a beach episode followed up by a boys vs girls episode. What would have really sold it for me is if the show actually visually showed how other kids (like p26) lived compared to the kids in p13.

Besides that come on dude you know someone in the staff of this show had to be at least snickering at how they designed the cockpits, the robots themselves, and the klaxsosaurs (a giant gamecube with horns looking klaxosaur, a long razor blade looking klaxosaur, a klaxosaur that spews blue acid that just so happens to get inside the robots and melt the girls suits away, a klaxosaur that looks like Nihilego from Pokémon Sun and Moon, and a klaxosaur that look like that one ship form star wars).

There is a lot of elements in Franxx that has made it really hard for me to take seriously. That's why I'm questioning why the show is taking itself so seriously since other than the production nothing it has done with its world or characters has really impressed me to make me think that there is a deeper message behind it so why not just be dumb fun.

Because it engages uses some beyond-tired anime tropes (beach episode -- which I admittedly was not crazy about -- although I thought the Boys v Girls one was unusually at home in this universe) and has goofy monster/robot/character designs, you don't think they should take the central premise of the show very seriously?

I'm having some trouble following what you think they should do differently and why. I never really got the impression that FranXX was aiming for Shin Sekai Yori levels of sober, thoughtful presentation (though I would have rather liked that), but neither do I think it would feel at all like the same show if it went full-on Space Patrol Luluco on us, and I'm not sure why we should want it to abandon all seriousness like that.

NeverConvex wrote:

Because it engages uses some beyond-tired anime tropes (beach episode -- which I admittedly was not crazy about -- although I thought the Boys v Girls one was unusually at home in this universe) and has goofy monster/robot/character designs, you don't think they should take the central premise of the show very seriously?

I'm having some trouble following what you think they should do differently and why. I never really got the impression that FranXX was aiming for Shin Sekai Yori levels of sober, thoughtful presentation (though I would have rather liked that), but neither do I think it would feel at all like the same show if it went full-on Space Patrol Luluco on us, and I'm not sure why we should want it to abandon all seriousness like that.

Told you I'll be back.

I'm not trying to say that the show should aim to be a Shin Sekai Yori or a Luluco. But what I felt Franxx doing a lot of the time was present itself as grandiosely as possible when what I'm actually seeing isn't all that grand.

This grand orchestral music plays as the kids get ready to pilot the robots. Lights come on and UI monitors come on...yet all I really see is them doing is getting in a doggystyle position to pilot it and handles come from the girls butts.

"These klaxosaurs are a huge threat to our society"... yet they don't look threatening and we haven't really seen them do all that much damage or really even kill anybody prior to ep.15 (even then I'd argue that's more APE's fault then anything).

The letterboxing they use constantly throughout the show (which I really don't like, its more distracting than anything)... is inexplicably used when Zero Two is throwing everyone's underwear in the air.

APE discussing their grandmaster plan...while dressed as literal apes.

Just this past episode Hiro & Zero Two and Kokoro & Mitsuru love each other...but do Hiro & Zero Two really have to spin around in circles while the sakura petals fall with text and the letterboxing on screen? Do they really have to show Kokoro & Mitsuru getting married especially when they just found out?

I can go on & on but those are just some that struck me as the show taking itself too seriously. I think if they had tweaked some designs, had more "down to earth" moments like Ikuno's Confession or Zorome's convo with the old woman, I think it would have done at least a little better in telling this coming of age love story its trying to tell. Right now it just comes off as kind of pretentious in my eyes.

I agree that the Klaxosaurs don't seem all that threatening, but I don't think that's a flaw in the show. I think that's because we're witnessing genocide more than war, and APE builds up the Klax threat because it's convenient to their agenda.

I also agree that the show mixes the grandiose & goofy or crude pretty frequently. Less sure how I feel about that. I could pretend to read some deep meaning into it, but I think it's mostly just FranXX not having the strongest grasp on its metaphors.

But does that hurt the tone of the show? I haven't really found the juxtaposition off-putting.

Well sexuality is usually a joke in anime, it tends toto be filler that is just throw in to getprevent easy attention. I do really thino that, DitF has triedbeen to capitalsize on that by maybe putting something that can give a snicker, but then does treat it seriously. To some thatof is whiplash of tones, but I am going towards itsome being a bit more meaningful. Sexuality uses things like the make gaze, but that is actually absent from the show, male gaze actually seemed to be what started the conflict of the girls vs boys episode, with the accusation by its mere existence meant a lack of respect. But it was not even the show trying to defend itself, because never tried to lean on that thing, instead we hear the boys saying how they feel some things, or Miku mentioning how a guy is good looking.

Yes, there are things that conflict with each other, like something silly before something serious, but isn't that perfect when these are teenagers meant toto be transitioning between being juvenile and being mature? The show pretty much saidof that the doctor was doing the beach to awaken things like libido, but it also had them become aware of some truths they had no idea about. This awakening beyond what they were told as kids is arguably the main plot, and it has included all the sickening sweet stuff, but wasI also littered with foreboding hints.

NeverConvex wrote:

I agree that the Klaxosaurs don't seem all that threatening, but I don't think that's a flaw in the show. I think that's because we're witnessing genocide more than war, and APE builds up the Klax threat because it's convenient to their agenda.

I also agree that the show mixes the grandiose & goofy or crude pretty frequently. Less sure how I feel about that. I could pretend to read some deep meaning into it, but I think it's mostly just FranXX not having the strongest grasp on its metaphors.

But does that hurt the tone of the show? I haven't really found the juxtaposition off-putting.

For me at least, I think it does cause I don't think it does a good enough job on selling me on its world or its logic if that makes sense. Going back to Luluco and Shin Sekai Yori, those two shows could not anymore different from each other. However what I think both shows do really well that Franxx hasn't done is sell me on its logic.

I can see Luluco is going for an over-the-top tone and it nails its in presentation and its logic.

I can see SSY is going for a thoughtful other-worldly tone and it nails its in presentation and its logic.

I can sort of see what Franxx is going for but there are elements in the presentation that are preventing it from getting there or make me think they are going for a totally different tone.

NeverConvex wrote:

It's also probably to be expected that we'd spend a whole lot've time digging through metaphors in a show chock full of symbolism, even if the symbolism's largely (as some of us think) apolitical, muddled, and not of any particular pertinence to the real world.

I can't keep up with the discourse around this show. It's rapidfire. There's a whole podcast about the show now. Anime smile + sweatdrop

But speaking of symbolism, there's this video worth sharing. I feel like he does a bulk of the legwork and clears up a lot of questions concerning where Darling in the Franxx is getting its inspiration. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6GPp3CzZVo.

stilldemented wrote:

I can't keep up with the discourse around this show. It's rapidfire. There's a whole podcast about the show now. Anime smile + sweatdrop

But speaking of symbolism, there's this video worth sharing. I feel like he does a bulk of the legwork and clears up a lot of questions concerning where Darling in the Franxx is getting its inspiration. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6GPp3CzZVo.

Yeah, it's inspired a lot of conversation. Which is a bit funny, given that many of the arguments are sprinkled with "Well, I don't think it's an especially stellar show, but how about those symbols..."

Thanks for the youtube link, will check it out later today.

Well, Ep19 makes it official, the storytelling in DitF is F*ed up. As if any decent writer couldn't have given us all this over the last 18 episodes. And it seems Jake may have been right that there was a weird religious undertone to the main message which this Ep just comes out and tells us. Immortality (of a sort) is in the mix now, at least one commentator on this thread called it months ago, BRAVO! I just don't want to sift through the last 500 comments to find out where. All's left is to see where this wreak goes for the end. Seriously, I feel cheated and this show will end up the "Worst Waste of Time of 2018". ANN can use this as a category for DitF if it turns out that way instead of "Worst Anime of 2018" which this might actually be. Also, pleeease let's have a "What the hell happened to DitF" after the end Razz

BTW, Great YT article, thanks! It should be seen by the reviewers here if it already hasn't.

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EP. REVIEW: DARLING in the FRANXX