Forum - View topic
Shelf Life - Clannad and Clannad After Story


Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

Note: this is the discussion thread for this article

Anime News Network Forum Index -> Site-related -> Talkback
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Gatherum



Joined: 14 Feb 2012
Posts: 773
Location: Aurora CO
PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:01 pm Reply with quote
It's amusing, the people I've met who refuse to watch this because of all that they've heard about it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime
Key
Moderator


Joined: 03 Nov 2003
Posts: 15861
Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley)
PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:55 pm Reply with quote
That this franchise doesn't technically have a deus ex machina ending is just that: a technicality, as that's still basically what it is. The way it and the whole tragedy-porn lead-up to it was handled is why I'll probably never rewatch this franchise, even though I do regard it as having some of the most intensely emotional moments of any series I've ever seen. I definitely prefer the end presented in the movie version, as it felt more honest.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website My Anime My Manga
maximilianjenus



Joined: 29 Apr 2013
Posts: 1880
PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:31 am Reply with quote
It really a more modern aproach to the earn your ending plot, it just came out without enough impact; obviosuly clannad was pre-when they cry, ppre.-steins gate
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
SaitoHajime101



Joined: 31 Mar 2013
Posts: 236
PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 1:13 am Reply with quote
Joshua Zarate wrote:
I agree with Spastic Minnow in that there never was a deuce-ex-machina in After Story. I’m surprised at how many people just didn’t see the magical solution gradually build up from the beginning and explained...


The problem is with how many direct references to the magical solution there were. Without talking about spoilers here, there were approximately 3 to 4 moments, that I can recall, where the "buildup" was ever really shown or talked about. There are two really specific episodes that bring this up in After Story, however they take place during the early "side-arc" episodes. Those tend to be the episodes people remember less about since the events later in After Story were so impactful.

To revisit a subtle plot device, that was rarely directly talked about, late into a series (and I mean near the end of the series), doesn't help the ending.

As a player of the VN, both before the anime came out and after, I can see why this occurred. The magical solution was a key component to the routes and the overall "replayability" to get that "True End". This component is much more prominent there than in the anime due to the limitations of time and content for the anime versus the game.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
grooven



Joined: 16 Aug 2006
Posts: 1334
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:16 am Reply with quote
Much like SaitoHajime101 said, I too am a VN player and anime watcher. I can see how people think it was a cop-out. It works better in a game format since the anime did not present it as evidently as the game. But it does make make sense and all the events that play out tie in to the ending.

It is a fantastic adaptation regardless. Kyoani did a great job. Little Busters, by Key is also amazing, but it didn't get much acclaim because of the studio. Though it ties up and ending that is more acceptable I find for people who had issues with Clannad. While arguably some heroine routes are weaker than Clannad, the end story is just as beautiful.

Key wrote:
That this franchise doesn't technically have a deus ex machina ending is just that: a technicality, as that's still basically what it is. The way it and the whole tragedy-porn lead-up to it was handled is why I'll probably never rewatch this franchise, even though I do regard it as having some of the most intensely emotional moments of any series I've ever seen. I definitely prefer the end presented in the movie version, as it felt more honest.
I would argue about the tragedy porn terminology aspect. Any show that has an emotion that it pushes on the viewer could be considered such. But I find that this term discounts the value that each story holds.

I would consider watching from the beginning and with having in mind the ending. You can see the underlying hints and more of the story from a different aspect. Lots of information is more visible on a second watch and I think it can be better appreciated.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Zin5ki
SubscriberSubscriber


Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Posts: 6679
Location: London, UK
PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 3:39 am Reply with quote
Key wrote:
I definitely prefer the end presented in the movie version, as it felt more honest.

How does it differ, out of interest? I recall the theatrical version of Air being passable at best, so I have my hesitations.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website My Anime My Manga
Joshua Zarate
SubscriberSubscriber


Joined: 12 Jan 2017
Posts: 1607
PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 4:03 am Reply with quote
^^I agree with grooven and also suggest the same thing they did to Key.

@ SaitoHajime101 - Ah, I see what you mean. (I only watched the anime; never played the visual novel) Yeah, I can understand that being a problem and the anime could have definitely handled that aspect better than it did. I was just wanting to air out my feelings towards the people who say it was never there to begin with when it was. I also could see some people viewing the ending of the anime as a cop out and it could have been rectified if the adaptation had spent even more time on the magical realism aspect than it did. As a whole, though, it shouldn’t defer people interested in the series from giving it a chance. As flawed as it is, Kyoto Animation still did a fantastic job with it and continues to this day to be one of their best works and one of the best of its genre.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime
Animegomaniac



Joined: 16 Feb 2012
Posts: 3328
PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 5:48 am Reply with quote
Key wrote:
That this franchise doesn't technically have a deus ex machina ending is just that: a technicality, as that's still basically what it is. The way it and the whole tragedy-porn lead-up to it was handled is why I'll probably never rewatch this franchise, even though I do regard it as having some of the most intensely emotional moments of any series I've ever seen. I definitely prefer the end presented in the movie version, as it felt more honest.


Yes! The TV series should have the movie ending and the movie ending, being about Nagisa for the most part, should have the "No, really, this is a deus ex machine ending no matter if they set it up or not, explain it or not." ending.

Deus ex machine is a tern from ancient Greek plays where an outside power has to come in at the last minute to change the outcome of the story. The audience knows the gods are already present so the point isn't if it is set up or not but if some otherworldly power has to come in to change the ending.

What did the ending have to change anyway? Because it was kind of a downer. Why was it kind of a downer? Because... reasons? It's what they do? I absolutely hate the TV show ending as it completely negates the wonderful drama and story of Tomoya and his new family which the movie doesn't even get into as it just introduces the possibility of moving on. The movie ending isn't so much better because we can only say it stops earlier.

And then there' what his "friends" do for the five years after... You really want me to start getting into details of why the work should be spelled "wreck"? I haven't even gotten into how misused the "magical realism" theme is used in regards to Clannad.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
CatSword



Joined: 01 Jul 2014
Posts: 1249
PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:52 am Reply with quote
Would you guys still say the show's worth watching if you've been spoiled on After Story? I started the first season in middle school and really liked the first few episodes, but never continued on, largely because I knew all about future plot events.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime My Manga
Spastic Minnow
Bargain HunterBargain Hunter


Joined: 02 May 2006
Posts: 3928
Location: Central Florida
PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:57 am Reply with quote
Animegomaniac wrote:
"No, really, this is a deus ex machine ending no matter if they set it up or not, explain it or not." ending.

Deus ex machine is a tern from ancient Greek plays where an outside power has to come in at the last minute to change the outcome of the story. The audience knows the gods are already present so the point isn't if it is set up or not but if some otherworldly power has to come in to change the ending.

What did the ending have to change anyway? Because it was kind of a downer. Why was it kind of a downer? Because... reasons? It's what they do? I absolutely hate the TV show ending as it completely negates the wonderful drama and story of Tomoya and his new family which the movie doesn't even get into as it just introduces the possibility of moving on. The movie ending isn't so much better because we can only say it stops earlier.
d.


If the story is about Gods, and Gods caused the problem, and everything hinges on the Gods involvement, if the Gods solve the problem- how is that a last minute solution to change the story? (replace "Gods" with "Magic" for Clannad).

It may help to realize that Nagisa's sickness is itself a magical disease. She was saved as a child by the same magic that made her sick and the main way she would be cured would be through Tomoya's own involvement with the same magic. the magic gave her a future with Tomoya that he needs to accept in order to get rid of the sickness Did you not notice that she seemed basically cured afterwards?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website My Anime My Manga
Key
Moderator


Joined: 03 Nov 2003
Posts: 15861
Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley)
PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:00 am Reply with quote
grooven wrote:
I would argue about the tragedy porn terminology aspect. Any show that has an emotion that it pushes on the viewer could be considered such. But I find that this term discounts the value that each story holds.

No, "tragedy porn" is when a series piles on tragedy simply for the sake of being more tragic. AS absolutely does that by spoiler[having the daughter get sick and die just like the mother did just so they could set up the magical ending.] That so infuriated me, especially after it so beautifully and emotionally resolved the issues before it.

CatSword, despite my disdain for the ending, I think the series is still worth watching. The main series is not the best Key adaptation (I'd still point to Kanon for that) but it has enough humor and dramatic moments to be largely satisfying.

And frankly, even knowing what's coming probably won't spoil the emotional impact of certain key moments in AS. It's just that strong.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website My Anime My Manga
Stampeed Valkyrie



Joined: 10 Aug 2014
Posts: 537
Location: PA
PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:10 am Reply with quote
CatSword wrote:
Would you guys still say the show's worth watching if you've been spoiled on After Story? I started the first season in middle school and really liked the first few episodes, but never continued on, largely because I knew all about future plot events.


Most Definitely.. there is a big difference between knowing something and then actually experiencing it.



The movie version of Clannad was horrible.. besides trolling fodder. I can't see anyone making this recommendation seriously.

I was introduced to the series via the VN but never completed it prior to watching the anime.. but since then I have completed the VN. The anime is probably the best VN anime adaption I have seen to date. I'm not going to go out and claim it's the best anime ever, but it's definitely high up on my list at least.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
invalidname
Get off my lawn!Get off my lawn!


Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 1948
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:25 am Reply with quote
Zin5ki wrote:
Key wrote:
I definitely prefer the end presented in the movie version, as it felt more honest.

How does it differ, out of interest? I recall the theatrical version of Air being passable at best, so I have my hesitations.

The movie is radically different by necessity, being a 90-minute movie rather than 49 TV episodes. It focuses exclusively on the Tomoya-Nagisa relationship, and almost entirely omits the harem (Kouko, the former teacher and older sister of Fuuko, has more to do than the harem girls do). The story is told somewhat out of order, mostly working through the revive-the-drama-club arc, but with flash-forwards to scenes after spoiler[Nagisa's death]. The current timeline eventually catches up with the future, and the ending is spoiler[Kouko and the harem cornering Tomoya into a reunion at the train station with Ushio, the daughter he's neglected for years]. This means that Nagisa spoiler[stays dead], and there is spoiler[no magic whatsoever].

Key wrote:
The main series is not the best Key adaptation (I'd still point to Kanon for that) but it has enough humor and dramatic moments to be largely satisfying.

I continue to encourage people interested in Clannad to branch out into other VN-based romantic melodramas, rather than just crunch through the entire Key / Visual Art's adaptation filmography. Rather than moving onto Air, Kanon, and Little Busters!, I think fans of this type of material would be better served by trying out Rumbling Hearts, ef, and White Album 2, to see what they do differently.

EDIT: Honestly, I think the best Key thing isn't even Clannad, but Angel Beats!, which despite its incredible messiness does a lot of interesting things right, including being the one time Jun Maeda proved he could write arcs for his female characters as ends in themselves (which makes the backslide of Charlotte that much more disappointing).


Last edited by invalidname on Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:31 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
SaitoHajime101



Joined: 31 Mar 2013
Posts: 236
PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:30 am Reply with quote
Joshua Zarate wrote:
^^I agree with grooven and also suggest the same thing they did to Key.

@ SaitoHajime101 - Ah, I see what you mean. (I only watched the anime; never played the visual novel) Yeah, I can understand that being a problem and the anime could have definitely handled that aspect better than it did. I was just wanting to air out my feelings towards the people who say it was never there to begin with when it was. I also could see some people viewing the ending of the anime as a cop out and it could have been rectified if the adaptation had spent even more time on the magical realism aspect than it did. As a whole, though, it shouldn’t defer people interested in the series from giving it a chance. As flawed as it is, Kyoto Animation still did a fantastic job with it and continues to this day to be one of their best works and one of the best of its genre.


I can totally see and understand why you and others feel the way you do. Its a legitimate concern, as you stated, the anime doesn't handle it well. The limitations of time really do hinder the telling of the magical solution. Even if KyoAni took out the solution, then that would deeply change the story content of the show...

...which an anime studio did and we got the Clannad Movie for it. For anyone who has seen that movie will know how different it felt, but it makes sense. Yes the movie had bigger issues than the show did, however I felt it was even more realistic in some areas (no surprise when you take magic out of the show).

Clannad has been in my personal top 10 since I saw the show, movie and played the game since the late 2000s. After Story sold it for me, as it did for most. As a married individual myself, it really shines some of the worries I've gone through and still go through to this day. Family care and expansion is tough, but worth it! Laughing
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Stampeed Valkyrie



Joined: 10 Aug 2014
Posts: 537
Location: PA
PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:32 am Reply with quote
Quote:

I continue to encourage people interested in Clannad to branch out into other VN-based romantic melodramas, rather than just crunch through the entire Key / Visual Art adaptation filmography. Rather than moving onto Air, Kanon, and Little Busters!, I think fans of this type of material would be better served by trying out Rumbling Hearts, ef, and White Album 2, to see what they do differently.


Personally I enjoyed Little Busters more then Clannad but that is a matter of taste..
I don't disagree with the recommendations.. but I have not seen White Album.. ef was very good, probably the only of the other 2 I think that can actually rival Clannad.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Anime News Network Forum Index -> Site-related -> Talkback All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Page 2 of 3

 


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group