Forum - View topic
Shelf Life - Clannad and Clannad After Story


Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3

Note: this is the discussion thread for this article

Anime News Network Forum Index -> Site-related -> Talkback
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Zin5ki
SubscriberSubscriber


Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Posts: 6679
Location: London, UK
PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:37 am Reply with quote
invalidname wrote:
The story is told somewhat out of order, mostly working through the revive-the-drama-club arc, but with flash-forwards to scenes after spoiler[Nagisa's death]. The current timeline eventually catches up with the future, and the ending is spoiler[Kouko and the harem cornering Tomoya into a reunion at the train station with Ushio, the daughter he's neglected for years]. This means that Nagisa spoiler[stays dead], and there is spoiler[no magic whatsoever].

That actually sounds more refined and cohesive, on the face of things! Though doubtlessly likely to be incendiary amongst some viewers, I grant.

Quote:
I continue to encourage people interested in Clannad to branch out into other VN-based romantic melodramas, rather than just crunch through the entire Key / Visual Art's adaptation filmography. Rather than moving onto Air, Kanon, and Little Busters!, I think fans of this type of material would be better served by trying out Rumbling Hearts...

But why would you recommend this series in particular? Surely the franchise to which it belongs couldn't be an influencing factor here...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website My Anime My Manga
Key
Moderator


Joined: 03 Nov 2003
Posts: 15861
Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley)
PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:53 am Reply with quote
invalidname wrote:
EDIT: Honestly, I think the best Key thing isn't even Clannad, but Angel Beats!, which despite its incredible messiness does a lot of interesting things right, including being the one time Jun Maeda proved he could write arcs for his female characters as ends in themselves (which makes the backslide of Charlotte that much more disappointing).

Forgot Angel Beats! was a Key project, too. I'd put it even with Kanon, though I regard it as a distinctly different type of series. (At the very least it's not the heavy-duty moefest that Kanon is.)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website My Anime My Manga
invalidname
Get off my lawn!Get off my lawn!


Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 1948
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 1:20 pm Reply with quote
Zin5ki wrote:
That actually sounds more refined and cohesive, on the face of things! Though doubtlessly likely to be incendiary amongst some viewers, I grant.

Yeah, you've no doubt noted in the preceding discussion that it's not well-regarded among Key fans. Pity, I just think the Clannad movie is a different beast: more drama, less moé. Also noteworthy as one of the last things directed by Osamu Dezaki; it's interesting to see how the director of The Rose of Versailles could change with the times and do something like a VN adaptation.

Quote:
But why would you recommend this series in particular? Surely the franchise to which it belongs couldn't be an influencing factor here...

Dude, I was into Rumbling Hearts first, and was initially dismissive of the Muv-Luv franchise it led to. But let's not digress.

Of my three recommendations, ef is probably the closest to Clannad, as it involves a touch of the supernatural (the cossack-hatted woman who randomly appears to dispense sage advice and disappear again). But there's much different: instead of KyoAni's lovely character animation and backgrounds like in Clannad, ef is a highly impressionist work of limited animation. One of the most memorable scenes in the series is barely even animation: a four-minute sequence of text messages from an increasingly frantic girl being overlaid on the screen. It's also freed from the single protagonist structure, and in its second season, one of the arcs is largely told from the girl's point of view (although, as a high school girl pursuing a terminally ill older man, it's much more controversial material than Key would ever touch).

Rumbling Hearts, like Clannad After Story, lets its characters age: after the episode two twist, there's a three year time-skip, and most of the characters are young adults for the remainder. Like Tomoya's job repairing electrical lines, the protag in this show falls into a not-great job as a waiter, and Best Girl washes out of a promising sports career and ends up as an office lady. The difference with Clannad is that while all Key heroes and heroines are forever blameless, only one outside force affects Rumbling Hearts: the car accident that puts First Girl in a coma. After that, their problems are all of their own making (and even the accident was arguably the protag's fault). This is part of why the show is divisive every time it comes up on the forums: it's a show about deeply flawed characters, and when we say "all the feels", those also includes guilt, fear, jealousy, and anger, all of which play a role here.

White Album 2 takes that a step further. There's no one to blame but the three protags. Nick wrote a great essay about WA2 on his site years ago, and I can't put it better than he did:
Quote:
White Album 2 is a story about three characters who all want things. They’re friends, and they don’t want to hurt each other, but they want these things more than they want to avoid that. They’re also fairly weak and insecure people – or at least two of them are, with the third being enough aware of this to use it as a weapon.


So what I like about all of these is that they're a little less pure, a little less sweet than Clannad. That's a minus for some, a plus for others. The other interesting thing is that all three of these keep the sexual element from their source VNs, which in Key works is either whitewashed out of the anime (Air, Kanon, Little Busters!) or was never there in the first place (Clannad). In fact, the first season of ef has what may be the kinkiest thing I've ever seen in anime: having sex on the school roof, and carefully folding your clothes first.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Kamijou Touma



Joined: 01 Oct 2017
Posts: 52
Location: Gakuen Toshi
PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 4:14 pm Reply with quote
I just watched the series last year (way to late) and I loved every minute of it and it became one of my favorites. I rarely buy anime but i bought the box set in December. I watched Kanon 1st so the end of After Story makes complete sense to me. Just finished my second watch and it still killed me emotionally. No anime ever has left such a impact on me. It is my favorite kyoani series then Kanon.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
grooven



Joined: 16 Aug 2006
Posts: 1334
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 4:56 pm Reply with quote
@iinvalidname I know I have asked before, but have you played Little Busters yet? I know you weren't a fan of the anime (did you finish it?). It starts off very different and has different tone because it is about friendship. I know some routes aren't as powerful as ones written in Clannad, it t ties up very well in Refrain is every bit as powerful as After Story. It is not at all like how Rewrite goes.

Key wrote:
grooven wrote:
I would argue about the tragedy porn terminology aspect. Any show that has an emotion that it pushes on the viewer could be considered such. But I find that this term discounts the value that each story holds.

No, "tragedy porn" is when a series piles on tragedy simply for the sake of being more tragic. AS absolutely does that by spoiler[having the daughter get sick and die just like the mother did just so they could set up the magical ending.] That so infuriated me, especially after it so beautifully and emotionally resolved the issues before it.


I personally disagree there. If feel it relates to the narrative within the story. It does magical realism really well as is the illusionary world. spoiler[The theme of the story is the the family and bonds within the town. When Nagisa's life is saved it is the town granting the wish, giving life to her from that specific place where Aiko asks for her to be saved. Her daughter inherits this tie to the place where Nagisa's life is saved. When that place is gone, her life is taken away. It all connects to the town. And the light orbs from the happiness from the people of the town allow her life to be restored I don't feel like it was just put in place for the ending. It goes much deeper.] However I can see how people would like the other ending in both a more realistic approach, but it would undermine the entire mechanics of the story. Though I feel if Jun Maeda got his way, the ending would be very different. Like how we see in Angel Beats and Tomoyo After.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
invalidname
Get off my lawn!Get off my lawn!


Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 1948
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:45 pm Reply with quote
grooven wrote:
@iinvalidname I know I have asked before, but have you played Little Busters yet? I know you weren't a fan of the anime (did you finish it?). It starts off very different and has different tone because it is about friendship.

Thanks for the reminder. I should grab Little Busters! next Steam sale (unless there’s an 18+ at Denpasoft? Haven’t looked.) I think it’s important to back something iconic that gets a legit release. That said, I’m pretty backed up with VNs at the moment, between pushing through all of Clannad, going back through the new translation of Muv-Luv Alternative, plus Fashioning Little Miss Lonesome for laughs, and Doki Doki Literature Club because FOMO.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Stampeed Valkyrie



Joined: 10 Aug 2014
Posts: 537
Location: PA
PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:56 pm Reply with quote
ack you just reminded me about the super creepy pairing in ef.. between the high school aged girl and the terminally ill guy.. That pretty much creeped me out in both the game and the anime..

As for Little Busters.. the only H content was in the Little Busters EX (Exstacy) release.. the US release is Perfect edition which includes EX content but removed the PRON.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Key
Moderator


Joined: 03 Nov 2003
Posts: 15861
Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley)
PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 4:27 pm Reply with quote
grooven wrote:
I personally disagree there. If feel it relates to the narrative within the story. It does magical realism really well as is the illusionary world. spoiler[The theme of the story is the the family and bonds within the town. When Nagisa's life is saved it is the town granting the wish, giving life to her from that specific place where Aiko asks for her to be saved. Her daughter inherits this tie to the place where Nagisa's life is saved. When that place is gone, her life is taken away. It all connects to the town. And the light orbs from the happiness from the people of the town allow her life to be restored I don't feel like it was just put in place for the ending. It goes much deeper.]

Does this come from having played the VN? I honestly don't see how anyone is supposed to get that interpretation from the anime alone.

This is why it really irritates me when anime adaptations (whether of VNs or whatever) aren't made to be standalone. "Go check out the supplementary stuff if you want to see the story/characters expanded on more" is fine but "you need to read the source/supplementary stuff to actually fully understand what's going on" isn't.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website My Anime My Manga
killjoy_the



Joined: 30 May 2015
Posts: 1939
PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:18 pm Reply with quote
^ I think it's very in-between the line in the anime, but you can get it if you're specifically looking for meaning when it comes to spoiler[the disease]. Her father's explanation of how she was born/survived in particular is the biggest clue iirc
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
grooven



Joined: 16 Aug 2006
Posts: 1334
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:19 pm Reply with quote
Key wrote:
Does this come from having played the VN? I honestly don't see how anyone is supposed to get that interpretation from the anime alone.

This is why it really irritates me when anime adaptations (whether of VNs or whatever) aren't made to be standalone. "Go check out the supplementary stuff if you want to see the story/characters expanded on more" is fine but "you need to read the source/supplementary stuff to actually fully understand what's going on" isn't.


No you can get this from the anime, which is why a second watch is recommended. You don't have to play the game to understand it. Its like reading a book or watching a long movie twice, you notice things you never read/ saw before. There area a few large scenes with these moments and the viewer should be able to draw a conclusion. There are also more subtle hints laid about with connections to the illusionary world.

I understand you about that an adaptation has to be strong enough on its own. Clannad is one of them, it works great on its own (of course it has flaws). I agree if you have to read the source to know what is happening then it doesn't work. This reminds me of Tales from Earthsea. I had read the books years ago and then watched the movie. There were things only a person who read the book would understand. And then get confused by everything else the director chose to do.


Last edited by grooven on Thu Jan 25, 2018 2:41 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Stampeed Valkyrie



Joined: 10 Aug 2014
Posts: 537
Location: PA
PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:27 pm Reply with quote
Key wrote:

Does this come from having played the VN? I honestly don't see how anyone is supposed to get that interpretation from the anime alone.

This is why it really irritates me when anime adaptations (whether of VNs or whatever) aren't made to be standalone. "Go check out the supplementary stuff if you want to see the story/characters expanded on more" is fine but "you need to read the source/supplementary stuff to actually fully understand what's going on" isn't.


I would recommend re-watching.. I haven't finished the VN yet (seriously looooong) and it's more apparent in the VN but the anime does make it a point to reference this. And it's not just once or twice it's referenced in both seasons.. Also the lights are also explained by both Tomoya and Ushio in the anime.. at one point I even think Ushio comes out as says it to the viewer.

And I agree with what you said about anime adaptations... but as an example if I hadn't have watched Tsukihime.. and been left like WTH? I probably would have never dug deeper and in turn discovered Type-Moon... pre Fate/Beating a dead horse might I add.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
nhat



Joined: 21 Jan 2008
Posts: 916
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 10:15 pm Reply with quote
Violynne wrote:


Even if I should remove the supernatural element of the ending, the entire ending felt like a tacked on, last minute ditch effort to get people clamoring for tissues to wipe their tears.


While it's not the best type of resolution I would like, it's not a last minute ditch effort, it's been foreshadowed since the beginning the of the entire series.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Anime News Network Forum Index -> Site-related -> Talkback All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3
Page 3 of 3

 


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group