Forum - View topicANNCast - Gundam Wing
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GeorgeC
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That's your opinion -- and you must have SERIOUS ADD if you can't get through this show. Oh, well, I didn't grow up in the era where every movie was edited like a music video, either! There are really only two GW episodes worth skipping and those are the recaps but then once upon a time they did recap episodes in numerous 40+ episode series to allow the animation teams time for a break or (more likely) time to catch up in production! We can debate the merits of the writing of GW to death but a lot of us made it through the series just fine and YES, it was very popular. It did AT LEAST double the ratings of the next most-popular Gundam series shown on CN. The ratings just disintegrated for the Gundam series that follow GW and nothing ever hit as hard as it did. The airing of GW coincided around the time Bandai made a massive toy push of Gundam into the US. As far as I saw, only the model kits of GW and other series really ever sold that well. They did a lot of a kit releases of GW, larger figures for 0083, and figures based on the SD-style of the CG SD-Gundam series but it was really the model kits that stores had a hard time keeping in stock at the time. The Gundam mecha action figures for GW sold well, too. The Gundam franchise, btw, is co-owned by Sunrise and Bandai. The reason why Bandai ended up distributing Gundam in the US by itself was that they wanted far more money than any American company or major Hollywood studio was willing to pay for the franchise distribution rights. They wanted $20million and that was disclosed at a con panel I attended at Anime Expo in 1994 or 1995 by one of the US distributors. To date, GW is still probably the most popular Gundam that was released States-side because of the mecha and character designs. I'm sorry if the 25-and-younger crowd of fans cannot comprehend this but these shows were very popular in their heyday. There's a reason Bandai/Right Stuf bothered to do a deluxe boxset release of the Gundam Wing Blu rays last year. I'm sorry if the snarky reviewers in the "professional fan-sphere of anime" (I'm NOT picking on Zac and the ANN crew here, btw, even if you got the dates mixed up in the article headline!) just don't seem to get it. I notice this a lot but Gundam in general does not get that much respect outside of Asia. Anime fans in the West tend to gravitate more towards wrestling/fighting anime like Dragonball Z. Let's face it a lot of what's selling are the shows where people beat the hell out of each other! That's fine but by comparison Gundam Wing is HIGH ART compared to Dragon Ball and its spin-off shows. And for disclosure's sake, I was NEVER that impressed by Dragonball and most of the Shonen Jump series, either! That's even in the days when I WAS addicted to playing Capcom fighting games like SF Alpha and Darkstalkers to death. ************************************** I couldn't get through the article when they got the basics of when this show aired in the US WRONG LOUDLY on the title of the article! Guys, Gundam Wing DIDN'T air in North America until March 2000 on Cartoon Network!!! GW originally aired in Japan in 1995 and 1996. You're getting your air dates mixed up for discussion. GW did NOT air in 1997/1998. The OVA and movie version of Endless Waltz, the GW epilogue movie, DID get theatrically released and distributed on video in 1997/1998. GW was absolutely NOT seen outside of import tape/LD fan clubs in the States until 2000! Gundam Wing was HARDLY the first Gundam distributed in the US. AnimeVillage, Bandai's original distributor/website, was selling VHS tapes of Gundam 0080, Gundam 0083, and the Gundam Movie Trilogy (original series) several years before the "Golden Age" of Gundam on American TV. I'm fairly certain the dubs for 0080 and 0083 were a few years old by the time they showed up on Cartoon Network. The Movie Trilogy was never dubbed unlike the original Gundam. |
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Lynx Amali
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It was. It had Blum as Char, British Bright and GunDAMN. It was never re released however. |
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mabber36
 Posts: 73 Location: georgia, usa |
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I'm 29 dude. I watched GW on toonami back in the day |
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LightningCount
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(Going to break this review/response up, since the Forum isn't letting me post it as one post)
PART 1: Hey, Zac, I’ve got a lot of meat for you here I think you’ll appreciate, so I hope I’m not too late to the discussion: Longtime listener. Thanks for going to the trouble of doing this podcast. I was awaiting it, and it sounds like it took quite an effort to make happen. I thought this podcast covered a lot of ground and made a lot of great points, but also jumped to some judgments it maybe shouldn’t have here and there. Zac was the most open-minded and I think got what it was doing the most. This is basically Gundam meets James Bond and/or Metal Gear. It’s meant to be taken seriously and generate conversations to a degree, but its “cool” stunts and stylized characters stretch reality to where you’re supposed to have a fun time, too. I don’t think those two things need to be exclusive, personally. It’s actually something the more successful and engaging Marvel movies like Captain America: The Winter Soldier have rested their hat on, so it’s a valid form of storytelling even today. Jacob understandably represented the crowd who just won’t be able to suspend disbelief and will find its unconventional nature purely frustrating; and Lauren tried to fill in some blanks, but I felt, in her justified attempt to note its historical significance, leaned a bit too much on the nostalgic and female side of the fandom in how she approached it, emphasizing the attraction to the characters, and then dismissing a lot of it as sloppy rehash compared to other Gundams. As such, I’d really like to answer a few questions that were vocally raised and clarify some points from the podcast. Notable SPOILERS related to series outside of Gundam Wing will be tagged; otherwise, expect spoilers related to the podcast's unanswered questions. 1.) Gundam Wing was pretty close to a “phenomenon,” as Lauren stated. Not only was it eventually on six days a week (often twice a day) and killing it in the ratings--along with getting merchandise in toy stores, electronics stores, and comic shops--but I encountered a sanctioned poster of Gundam Wing at my high school that was in the hallway near the journalism area (for reasons I am unsure of), and I also recall it was advertised in an entrance flyer as a headliner of Toonami at some Six Flags theme parks. It wasn’t on the level of Dragon Ball Z, but it was in the conversation just below it. People talked about it, for sure. I do remember the politics turning some people off, though. 2.) The whole school thing: It is insinuated strongly (basically outright stated) in Episode Zero (the prequel manga based on the scripts that sadly got lost in the shuffle of swapping directors) that the St. Gabriel school in particular was chosen as a fallback point if something went wrong with the mission to get the L-1 colony’s Gundam to Earth. Therefore, when Zechs interferes with Heero’s mission, Heero has to lay low at a school that had been scoped out ahead of time as a contingency plan. (The manga leaves it vague if it was Heero himself who did the intel work on the school, or if it was a different rebel agent. It suggests it was the latter. Regardless, this particular covert rebel agent with a resemblance to Heero is the one that Relena wishes she had introduced herself to before he left the school, as she felt bad that he was ostracized for his poor social standing, and it’s why she introduces herself to thin air after meeting Heero in Episode 1, once again feeling like she’s unable to represent herself in her cloistered life.) Anyway, being young, the school is a good fallback plan for Heero. Also, Heero eventually transfers out of St. Gabriel to another school in the series, and another after that, so he is moving around, trying to remove traces of himself. It’s not like he stays in one place and says, “Come get me, OZ!” Moreover, as was noted by Lauren, OZ is not expecting teens to be piloting the most exotic, powerful weapons space has to offer. So a school isn’t where they’d be actively looking. And by the time they find out the pilots’ identities, things have gotten more complicated and the school angle is all but dropped from the plot. Basically, it served its purpose during that recalibrating time for the “mission,” and now Heero has to move on. 3.) If you’re talking about Gundam: The Origin, the Char basketball scene was actually a nod to Heero, not vice versa. Gundam Wing came out long before the Gundam: The Origin manga (or anime). In fact, post-Wing UC and AU seem to borrow ideas popularized or introduced by Wing quite a bit. 4.) The Gundams’ missions were not “infiltration,” as noted in the podcast, but rather guerilla warfare. Each one of them came to basically cut off OZ’s ability to run a revolution. They failed, but there primary goal was not to blend in. That was only a consequence of how their mission was more complicated than they expected and how they needed to move along. Heero used the school as cover to resituate himself, Duo is associated with a salvaging group connected to Howard called the Sweepers, allowing him mobility and a base of operations; Trowa joins the circus because it allows him the ability to quietly maneuver equipment across wide areas of his target zone; Wufei uses the resources given to him by the Long clan to acquire supplies and makes himself the most overt in his actions; and Quatre uses his connection to the Maganac group in the Middle East. So, it’s not like this is Power Rangers, where they’re all secret agents at school 100% of the time. As for Heero’s following “emotions” line, in Episode Zero we find out that it’s passed on to him by the guy who regretted murdering the original Heero Yuy. He followed orders instead of feelings, and it led to the start of a conflict. (Shades of the spark of World War I). Therefore, when Heero says that, he’s referring to not committing to the original Operation Meteor (as described in Endless Waltz) and going forth with an alternative set of actions based on what he felt was right, for better or for worse. 5.) In terms of Duo’s philosophies, the “God of Death” moniker is something he gives himself as a way to cope with his past. His braided hair, outfit, and surname all come from being adopted by the Maxwell Church. He is the sole survivor of an attack on said church, and people say in the manga that he must have made a deal with death. As Lauren said, he’s seen a lot of death. His best friend was called Solo, which is how he made up the name “Duo,” but said friend died like many others from a virus. To give himself empowerment and look past these demons of his world, he’s tried to give himself agency over it by calling himself the master over it, hence the God of Death. Deep down, he’s an individual whose faith has been shaken, but who still tries to put on a smile and make the best of things. 6.) Trowa has more feelings than you give him credit for. He talks with the post-coma Heero about admiring him for being able to go to the lengths he does, suggesting Trowa has some hesitation about making the ultimate sacrifice; and as corny as his line about “These sparkles…they’re my tears” might seem, it says a lot about how much repressed emotion this young man has that he finds crying to be foreign and won’t even allow himself to admit it or think about it. 7.) The Episode Zero manga strongly insinuates that Trowa and Catherine are really brother and sister, though stops just short of confirmation. Each has a separate flashback showing them and their presumed parents caught and separated by an air raid. Trowa is taken in by a rebel group who takes pity on him, and Catherine’s fate is left unknown. Because it’s not outright stated, there is some vagueness that Catherine has merely attributed Trowa to be the younger brother she lost, which would fit with how she treated him during his amnesia, but the flashbacks do hint at the possibility of their being blood-related. 8.) Lady Une’s split personality, as stated by Treize, is a result of trying to fulfill two wildly different roles for Treize. It’s not clear if it’s been a long-developing thing, or just happened in the course of the series. The Episode Zero manga raises the possibility that Lady Une was a war orphan who was forced to become an Alliance spy to support her ill father, so if she has been playing roles all her life, it’s understandable that she could develop a complex and forget who she really is. We’ve unfortunately seen tragic stories about Hollywood actors to this effect. 9.) I found Jacob’s theory about the semi-sentient Gundams, pre-Zero System arc, was actually very insightful and interesting. I have always assumed that the machines that act strange, like Sandrock letting Quatre out, were idiosyncrasies programmed in by a given engineer knowing the tendencies of their given pilot. Well, that, as well as the need for each of these lonely pilots to have someone to talk to, thereby giving them personas they wouldn’t naturally have. But Jacob’s theory is definitely worth considering the next time I watch the whole series again. 10.) Regarding Newtypes in Gundam Wing. There are no Newtypes, officially. Not even Heero. During the planning stages, Wufei was supposed to be an African character (swapped because of considerations made regarding G-Gundam). When he was from Africa, he was a Newtype character. However, when that was dropped in the planning stages, the Newtype idea was as well. That said, Quatre’s “Heart of Outer Space” became a new semi-Newtype ability. Basically, while not explicitly explained--in part due to the hectic production history of Wing that had them scrambling by the midpoint, or what Sumisawa called “the worst ever” schedule in a 1997 interview--the details were not gotten into or ironed out on this point. But the gist of it seems to be that Quatre’s extreme empathy had caused him to develop an almost sixth sense, so not quite Newtype-ism, either. His statement about Heero being “the heart of outer space” seems to be Quatre’s poetic, empathetic way of saying that Heero’s determination and act of defense at the very end of the series was a testament/representation of the spirit of all humans who had fought to live in outer space. As far as Heero’s abilities…I forget where it’s stated, but it is at least insinuated that he went through special conditioning via the Barton Foundation, which may or may not have included Metal Gear-style gene therapy, to make him a physically stronger agent than the average boy. (They do hint at this when Sally Po captures him, IIRC.) That makes him a UC-style Cyber Newtype of a sort, but not really. He doesn’t have the out-of-body abilities of a traditional Newtype by any means. This series, for all its ridiculous elements, tries to be more grounded than that. He’s more of a super soldier, which I think Jacob noted. And Zac hit the nail on the head with his Metal Gear comparison about soldiers also. |
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LightningCount
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PART 2
11.) It’s worth noting that the Mobile Doll arc is one of the more relevant and prescient discussions in this series, given the way history has gone. We are heading into an age where proxy-based warfare is a reality. Drones go in and do the dirty work, and the consequences are all remote, seen from a screen hundreds of miles away. So the discussion about the “human element” of cost/sacrifice that Treize and others bring up, whatever you may think of them as personalities, are valid concerns. And that ties together well with a series that basically revolves around the military-industrial-complex gaining too much power. Even if it doesn’t delve deep enough for some, it goes deeper than a lot of Gundams in showing various angles of a larger conversation that can be primers for some real-life conflicts. Outside of the Bugs from F91, this drone idea had never been touched upon in Gundam, and Wing does something very different and more complex with the idea than F91, going even further when doing the themes that Zac mentioned with the human-machine interface of the Zero System. On this same subject matter of relevance, this is the Gundam that introduced the child soldier angle. Yes, earlier Gundams had chance young pilots, but people like Heero and Trowa were basically forced into the brutal life of a soldier at a young age. While Gundam 00 and Iron Blooded Orphans may have represented this since then in a more blatant and neatly bow-tied way, I’m don’t feel they dug enough into the long-term psychological consequences of this, whereas you see clearly with people like Heero and Trowa that they have trouble functioning altogether. It’s not just a plot beat used for development, it’s with them throughout, even if more abstractly that those later Gundam examples. It just feels more organic to me. There is no single epiphany that undoes what they were; it’s a gradual process that only can cut so deep in the world they are in. 12.) I think Treize is a fascinating villain that really stands out in the Gundam canon, actually. He’s a master manipulator and can hold his own in a fight. He has principles and ideals about human nature, whether they are twisted or not. It’s not just mustache-twisting of “I’ll rule the world!” or “I’ll win the war!” or “I’ll get revenge!” That difference makes for a good villain in my mind in a series that gets into the gray areas of hero and villain alike. The fact that you don’t know who to root for at times is a sign of compelling storytelling to me rather than sloppy storytelling. Real life is rarely black and white, or one side versus one side, and Wing does the “fog of war” more actively than most every other Gundams. Also, if you look at his actions, about how he removes Relena from power in an ugly circumstance to, in essence, make way for a world that she can help heal and role model, I think he has more compassion than one might think. His scene about remembering the lives lost is pretty telling about some of the complexities running through him. Also, his resignation speech from OZ, where he says he wants to be “a loser,” points to his belief that the fighting creates an evolutionary cycle whereby people can learn from their mistakes and create a better world. Is it completely sound? Maybe not. But it is true that reform rarely comes from status quo. There has to be an impetus to improve things, and I think Treize is trying to get to a point where the human spirit will internalize the fight and look to people like Relena, who has been tempered both externally and internally. That’s why he can’t have Mobile Dolls cutting off the process. The only Gundam villain that I think comes close to this interesting/unconventional…or even mature…is spoiler[Durandal from Gundam SEED Destiny]. After that, you can pick from a hierarchy or masked men, largely. spoiler[Rau Le Cruset from SEED and the Frost Brothers from X (not masked men, actually) are rather interesting.] 13.) A couple of things about Wing that stand out that I haven’t noted yet. The way the Gundam pilots interact with their machines is something different than Gundams before this. This really upped the ante beyond what G-Gundam may have started with pilot-machine connections. It’s commonplace for the pilots to speak to their Gundams as if they’re partners or companions on a journey, not things, which wasn’t a big deal prior to Wing. Also, with the emphasis on a limited special material, Gundanium, and the way they have urban-legend jinxes surrounding them, and thus the way people get frightened of them…that was a new thing for Gundam. None of that was done as explicitly as it was done in Wing before Wing. “It’s a Gundam!” cries of fear weren’t really a thing before Wing. It was more of a begrudging, “That thing’s a White Devil.” It wasn’t a defined category of thing to be terrified of until Wing. Now that happens all the time--most recently with the spoiler[“Gundam-type Frame” and its back story stuff in Iron Blooded Orphans]. Moreover, aside from G-Gundam, this was the first TV series where the Gundam pilots start out as Gundam pilots, and the first to do it in a military context. We don’t have the trope of boy stumbles into a mecha and has to become a man, and so he goes through whining about the adults in his life. These characters start out good at what they do, allowing for the plot to move faster and go in different directions. Some of the personal stumblings new pilots make in the UC Gundams seem more erratic than the Gundam pilots in Wing in terms of rational character development, in my opinion. Additionally, this was the Gundam series where the Gundams really started to get an overpowered arsenal. However, this fit well with the theme, whereby as strong as a machine is in battle, it alone cannot stop a war and bring peace. The Gundams are often outmaneuvered in a variety of ways through political maneuverings, which was not traditionally the norm for these types of series. 14.) spoiler[Lacus, Cagalli, Kudelia, Marina]: Relena and/or her peaceful kingdom idea has been repeated over and over since Wing, and to a much lesser degree of effectiveness by my estimation. Relena seems far more engaged, poised, developed, and important than these characters. And Wing really started this. Relena is not Sayla, despite having a masked brother. So, going back, spoiler[F91’s Cecily Fairchild’s the closest in concept to Relena, pre-Relena…but even that is quite a bit different and nowhere near as fleshed out in execution.] So, I’m not sure what Lauren was getting at there. 15.) I would love to hear from the creators where the Zero System came from. I love the duality it brings to the series, especially in how it’s represented by Wing Zero and Eypon. The only thing like it in Universal Century is the EXAM System…which didn’t appear until a late 1996 video game side-story--which is after Gundam Wing’s airing. And now we have Gundam Unicorn, where the NT-D System is very Zero System-like. Again, Gundam Wing was an innovator on its own terms, too, not just totally cribbing. 16.) Ironic that Samurai Troopers, in the form of Ronin Warriors, aired just before Wing came to Toonami. It’s the same director, and both built a genre of boy teams popular with girls. 17.) Zechs was definitely a commercial effort to repeat Char after the more unconventional G-Gundam, but he has a much different attitude than Char.spoiler[ For one, he’s a lot less maniacal overall. He doesn’t go around conspiring to knock off his friends.] He’s more of a dishonored knight-type who can’t find the chivalry in the world he wants to see, and sort of descends into the chaos/madness as a result. spoiler[He ends up at the same extreme point as Char, but for different reasons, and in the end (Episode 49), he tries to help stop what he has begun, unlike Char.] Zechs’ arc works basically like this: He was living to get revenge on the Alliance for the Sanc Kingdom, particularly the military man who led the attack. When this was accomplished, though, he saw the chaos that was resulting (i.e. Episode 13). Challenged, confused, but inspired by the Gundam pilots’ sense of independence and lonely fight for those without a voice in the colonies, he decided that he would become a dualistic facilitator of peace to pave the way for his sister's movement, using both negotiating power and strategic force. But then the Sanc Kingdom is destroyed again and his sister joins the "military-industrial-complex" people that he considers to be a big part of the problem. Clearly he’s lost hope at this point, asking what the meaning to all the fighting was for if his meaning has been crushed. It’s at this time that he’s given Treize’s version of the Zero System via the Epyon, and we’ve seen how that screws with the mind. So, whether you interpret it as an act of desperation or a cunning move to secretly assist in the subversive Treize's goals, he then accepts the White Fang offer and sets up a "final conflict" to see if that can't heal the world by showing it its folly or, worst case, cause it to rise from its own ashes. Because, at that point, he's basically lost his will to live. Logic isn’t the first thing on his mind. None of that seems like completely left-field writing to me; people don’t remain the same throughout their lives. Things happen and they react, sometimes betraying themselves in the process. With Char, spoiler[he's leaning on a legacy of extremist human evolution theories in his final act. He’s become a Newtype zealot of sorts.] It’s worth noting that the look of Zechs’ uniform, helmet, and hairstyle has influenced the more modern “Char clones” in both the Universal Century (i.e. spoiler[Full Frontal]) and in the Cosmic Era more so than the original Char himself, in my opinion. |
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LightningCount
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PART 3
18.) I don’t think it’s fair to say that Relena is the only real character. I think the confusion comes for two reasons. One, the Episode Zero material was lost, and that’s a pretty big, tragic deal. (I’ll never understand why this wasn’t made into an OVA by now.) But even without that, the second point is that these are not “normal” people, and they are not supposed to be normal people. Each person came from an extreme situation that wounded them. spoiler[This is like Cowboy Bebop, where all these characters are messed up in one way or another.] There is this viewer confusion that they’re supposed to be a team, but Jacob was correct, they’re lone wolves who occasionally work together. This story is about a lot of people who have lost their will to live or feel trapped by the times. It’s about how by interacting with one another and wandering the changing world, they recover a modicum of humanity. Relena is so important because she is one of the catalysts for this, but she could not break out of her shell and become who she was destined to become without her interactions with Heero. Heero’s fight gives her confidence in her own fight and that there can be something more; he also represents to her how lives are shattered and warped by conflict. It’s not a traditional romance, but in an awkward way, he empowers her and she heals him by saving him from himself. (He would be dead if she hadn’t called out to him in Episode 3, for starters.) You see the trust in Endless Waltz when she basically wants Heero to open fire. But anyway, that subtlety makes it more interesting in the context of this particular story than if it was just two starry-eyed youths. This is the kind of subtext in Wing that probably gets missed by a casual viewing. Wing doesn’t put people in 100% recognizable, immediately understandable boxes, which seemed to upset Jacob a great deal. Maybe anime archetypes and how they’re used in stories has become too staid in modern anime. In real life, there are people with ambiguity rather than clear-cut mission statements; there are people who are misunderstood time and again; and there are people trying to find themselves. Gundam Wing’s characters are all “people-in-progress,” living on the edge, who are all suffering from forms of arrested development and holding onto one thing or another too tightly. They don’t have neat little arcs, but like I broadly did with Zechs, they do have mini-arcs nested within the macro plot that moves like a freight train. It just won’t stop the train to linger on them. Consider: The Heero we started the series with wouldn’t have been able to have the tenderness he showed to Relena prior to the final battle; he wouldn’t have been able to encourage a despondent, guilt-ridden Quatre to “play with the dogs” or to be a leader with the Zero System; he wouldn’t have said “I will survive” and struggle to both save the Earth AND himself from Libra; he wouldn’t have been able to talk down Wufei in Endless Waltz. His development happens in whispers along the road, not one grand superhero moment that’s convenient to say, OK plot, I’ve arrived and I’ve fulfilled an arc! That’s so refreshing! Similarly, rather than UC Gundam ultimately being about human evolution with psychic conversations from moving into space that will create mutual understanding, After Colony’s universe is more expressly grounded about people learning to live with themselves and others and have a conversation, and then take action based on those discussions. While UC Gundam does the latter, too, After Colony seems more committed to that reality than UC is, which makes the shaming of Wing all the more confusing. Yes, it’s more bombastic in overall execution, but it comes down to something more in the end. 19.) I disagree that the show doesn’t show the consequences of war. Yes, Gundam 0080: War in the Pocket it is not, but we get more than enough vignettes to show the human cost in a show with almost overwhelming scope. Episode 12 is excellent at this, and is a good example of how this show does some political realities more integrally than, say, the more perfunctory and clinical Gundam 00. We have a nation in China that’s formed independence from the Alliance with a nationalistic movement after the chaos caused by OZ. Rebels are fighting this new group’s movement, led by Sally, who was a part of the previous ruling government’s forces. But then the leader of this new nationalistic movement sells out his own independence supporters for a sweet deal with OZ that will help eliminate the opposition and secure his future. This results in lives being thrown away senselessly not for the promised high ideals, but greedy asides. We see the carnage as one of Sally’s allies gets his back torn up by an Aries and is begging the internally conflicted Wufei to do something to help. Wufei then goes and eliminates the immediate threat, but it doesn’t change the political reality of OZ’s encroachment and the local government’s instability. Most of this was world texture about the conflict, but it also moves the plot along by getting Wufei to a realization that gets him back in the saddle. (ALL IN ONE EPISODE!) Just one more quick example: In Episode 30, while Heero decides to fight with a mercenary group, Quatre waits in a line of mass migration--people affected by the war--and hears from an older man how tired people are of the constant fighting and displacement. Then, of course, there is the whole scenario with Quatre’s dad and their colony’s inner workings. This series actually has A LOT of background texture showing the cost of war on the macro level, and just enough on the micro level. That it doesn’t show it with the main five pilots dying could be a valid criticism, but I don’t think it invalidates what the series is doing. These five are our narrators through the chaos, along with a handful of others. They have to live with the consequences; we see that time and again. I mean, remember when Heero tried to get Noventa’s family to take revenge on him, one after the next? That’s heavy stuff. The fact that the main characters are the “walking wounded” from war themselves enhances this theme. They’re not overtly relatable because of how extreme their circumstances are, and yet they are compelling because of the way they’re trying to get through the struggles of life and find meaning in a changing world that often doesn’t regard them as anything but nuisances. They lose time and again, are betrayed time and again, but keep picking themselves up from the edge to find a future. It has a powerful sense of hope to it all. As I noted with Zechs, each does go through a subtle arc, basically fluctuating between extremes but ultimately becoming more tempered versions of themselves; they can’t expect to be fully healed, this series isn’t that idealistic. It’s not about starry-eyed arcs like that, but they are “real characters” in the context of the stage set by After Colony’s world. One thing people often get wrong in my estimation is how these characters are supposedly emotionless. They just express things differently because of their circumstances and backgrounds, and this is clear by their actions and dialogue in the series. They’re not going to talk like normal people, either, obviously. Even Duo notes this. Heero especially gets pegged as a monotone robot, but he laughs, he gets angry, he desperately reaches out for things to hold on to, he shows deep regret, etc. Again, though, these are not normal people: Heero started as rebel agent trained by a hit man and was manipulated by the Barton Foundation via Dr. J; Duo was an orphan who was helped by a church that was burned to the ground and eventually joined a salvaging group; Trowa was a nameless war orphan who was raised to be a soldier by rebels that were then killed by the Alliance; Quatre grew up thinking he was a disposable clone until he met the Maganacs, but then ran into difficulties with his father and the direction of the world; and Wufei…(SEE #20) 20.) Gundam Wing, like many anime, ran into production troubles that altered its overall presentation. Episodes 27 and 28 are largely filler episodes in the current anime, but one or both of these were originally supposed to serve as completely original episode(s) going into the backgrounds of the characters. Pieces of this are still touched on in the series and subsequent OVA series, Endless Waltz, but a lot (and in some cases all) of the context/nuance is completely lost, affecting viewer perceptions. These "lost scripts" by Katsuyaki Sumisawa were eventually reworked into a manga anthology circa 1997 called "Episode Zero." One of the most significant revelations is regarding Wufei's extremely contentious stance on men and women and fighting. Wufei started out as a scholar opposed to fighting who is put into an arranged marriage with the daughter of the colony's ruling (and Earth-exiled) Long clan, Meilan. She is obsessed with "justice" and haughtily calls herself both "the strongest" and "Nataku"--the name of a powerful warrior in Chinese mythology. She finds Wufei's unaffected attitude grating, basically telling him that his stance of nonviolence should have disqualified him from being her arranged husband. The two argue about justice and Wufei reveals himself to be stronger than his bookworm exterior suggests. She is surprised by his strength--a strength he refuses to use in any meaningful way--but still wants him and everyone to know how strong she is and prove that "justice" is real. Wufei thinks the concept of justice "does not exist" and is "only for one's convenience." Eventually, Meilan sacrifices herself in a mobile suit battle to help save Wufei and their colony, and Wufei thus comes to call his Gundam "Nataku," rather than its official name, "Shenlong." To him, the Gundam is basically the spirit of his deceased wife that he wants to honor and live up to. He must now always compare his sense of justice and strength to her sense of justice and strength, which was a strength to fight even when at a disadvantage or at the threat of death. As such, this colors his view of all other women fighting on the battlefield. Because, on one hand, he has put a specific female combatant on a pedestal, but on the other hand he lost a woman close to him in his life that he could have died fighting for in her place if he hadn't been so dogmatic and had acted earlier. He's basically dedicated himself to her mantra, and if he fails in this--to be the strongest and bring about justice--then he has no right to pilot his Gundam. Therefore, while he often comes across as offensively insensitive, there are reasons for his behavior because of what happened to him in his life. It doesn't excuse his behavior, but it provides greater complexity to it. Because there is this internal contradiction: to him a woman was the strongest, yet he doesn't acknowledge women on the battlefield. Knowing this helps; this gives us the why behind the why. But like other characters whose backgrounds were lost with the missing episode(s), I think the series gives enough context via actions and dialogue to allow the viewer to interpret in a classic “show-don’t-tell” sort of way, which is something that ironically helps out Gundam Wing. Zac pointed out that trying to piece things together is a rather engaging process in and of itself, and Gundam Wing succeeds in that, if you’re that kind of viewer who doesn’t want it all spelled out, verbatim…which is something that’s common in a good amount of anime, actually--not spelling things out. Think of something like RahXephon, for example. There are very few Gundam series casts as involved or interesting as Wing’s, in my opinion. Admittedly, some may not want this level of scope. |
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LightningCount
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PART 4
21.) I’m surprised that the progressive nature of women in this series wasn’t talked about much outside of Relena. This series has a number of powerful women with agency and/or in positions of leadership. Lady Une, Catherine Bloom, Sally Po, Hilde Schbeiker, Lucrezia Noin, Dorothy Catalonia. They may all have their faults, but they’re very present in the show and can do just about everything the main male characters can do, as well as things they can’t. In terms of narrative and screen time, I think they’re more central to the developing plot than in most other Gundams. I love the scene where Sally and Noin team up, showing how times have changed. 22.) Sanc Kingdom could also be inspired by the idea of a Sanctuary Kingdom, Zac. But a good, apropos thought. The Relena and Zechs story always seemed to be loosely referencing the tragedy of the Romanov family in Russian history to me. This idea of royalty lost and the hope of a lost child returning. 23.) The series has some interesting thematic ironies in how two people representing fallen leaders of peace end up fighting the final battle in a war. 24.) One thing Wing does better than most Gundam series is its mecha evolution. The story shows a clear lineage between the different machines. It’s not just random machine with random power of the month, which UC Gundam gets caught up in sometimes. ( i.e., the Virgo models come from adapting the knowledge of the Mercurius and Veyete, and the Serpent reflects its origins as a Barton Foundation mobile suit in how it adapts Heavyarms for mass production.) And to this point, it’s interesting how this series gives alternative non-Gundam and grunt suits time to shine, with various factions and/or main characters using them. It makes things feel more lived-in and dynamic…and it helps sell toys, I’d bet, since good and bad aren’t easily classified. Also, the grunt designs in general had a very effective, contrasting military feel to them, much more so than classic UC overall. 25.) “Scorpio” appears in a semi-canon side-story manga called Battlefield of Pacifists. It is semi-canon because it portrays one possibility of events between the series and Endless Waltz. There are at least two other manga and a radio play that have alternate stories for this time period. As an aside, no Sagittarius, but the TV series features an OZ mobile suit called “Tragos,” which is apparently Greek for “goat” and seems to serve as the fill-in for Capricorn. 26.) Zac, that was weirdly hilarious about the circus ringmaster praising Trowa. I think it is over-the-top, but something to consider is that there was some context between the two noted scenes. Trowa tried to kill himself and Catherine stopped him before this. If you read into the intention behind the silliness, I think the ringmaster was reflecting on the conflicted reality of Trowa, and how had circumstances been different, he really could have been something special in the circus. He’s already shown his abilities with animals, his acrobatic abilities, and his fearlessness when facing knives from Catherine, as well as his self-motivated work ethic with his crazy OZ stunt proposal. I mean, that circus may have financially really needed a jack-of-all-trades performer to bring more people in. It’s show business after all. And later in the series, the ringmaster shows he’s no big fan of the warring factions. 27.) I agree with Lauren about After War: Gundam X. It is tragically weakened a bit by having been reworked to have 10 episodes less than intended, but it is a very interesting take on Gundam that sort of did aspects of Eureka Seven and Gurren Lagann before they existed. Also, while it is much more methodical, I think of it as the spiritual successor to Gundam Wing. The art direction, character design, and the attitude with regards to over-the-top stunts is closest to Wing, even more so than Gundam 00. It has a few political arcs, especially late in the show, that feel like they could have come straight from Wing, in fact. 28.) Despite its excellent animation and enjoyable curtain call, I’ve always found Endless Waltz to be a bit trite after the TV series. Zac is right about the weirdness of blowing up the Gundams a mile out of town (after going to the trouble of sending them to the sun). And the epilogue seems to suggest that everything jumps to a level of peace that the franchise’s main message doesn’t seem to support. I think that epilogue was done to stop the After Colony universe in its tracks; I think Sunrise must have thought it was bleeding resources and distorting the Gundam franchise as a whole too much away from UC. I wonder, anyway. Don’t know, though. The Katoki Gundam redesigns are all interesting and add some spice, but some of them are downgrades from the series in terms of power (Altron/Nataku no longer has its beam cannons, for example), and I find them a little too elegant on the whole compared to the more weighty feel of the TV designs. Speaking of Endless Waltz, the use of the musical score in the OVA series is stronger in my opinion than the Movie; however, the Movie has more content, so you’ve got to go with the latter when viewing. (Compare Duo and Heero’s red shuttle ride for a comparison of what I’m talking about in terms of the OST’s utilization.) 29.) 08th MS Team is a funny animal, because while it is one of the most realistic Gundam series, it actually has some of the romanticism and over-the-top moments, characters, and design work that Wing has. That makes it a great transition piece for people looking to get into UC from, say, Wing, but 08th MS Team is not without its own shortcomings I’ve found, upon revisiting. That said, it’s still definitely one of my favorites. 30.) I’m surprised the directorial style wasn’t noted regarding Wing. The use of lighting and angles and selection of shots in this series seemed quite a bit better than the most recent Gundam TV series, Iron Blooded Orphans, which largely seems to use a more pedestrian approach to cinematography until it really needs to go all out in big moments. There is an effort to establish a mood with Wing more often, I think. Even with what must have been a stretched budget, there were a lot of dynamic images and a good use of scale in this series. Like, think about when the building is about to collapse on Relena and Heero reaches out with his shield to save her, and then screams “What’s wrong with me!” as he takes out an Aries. There’s a lot of old-fashioned cinema in this, as in many mid-to-late-90s Sunrise shows, and that helps sell the subject matter. Some later Gundams don’t do themselves a lot of favors in this area. That’s not to say that Wing is necessarily the best at it, but it is noteworthy. 31.) Those Gundam engineers do eventually pay the price in a final sacrifice for good. A nice little arc there. Greed got the better of people’s judgment in letting them live that long, but they have got to be one of the best collection of mad scientists in anime. Metaphorically, they’re sort of a who’s who tribute of anime’s heyday of mad scientist enemies. But it’s another thing that Gundam Wing did differently in its approach than other Gundams. 32.) Soundtrack was by Kou Ohtani, who did the music for Shadow of the Colossus, Outlaw Star, Darkstalkers OVAs, and Zoids: New Century Zero. An amazing music artist who really knows how to set a mood. Gundam Wing benefitted from his involvement greatly. Last edited by LightningCount on Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:17 am; edited 1 time in total |
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LightningCount
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PART 5 (END OF THE TEXT WALL!)
FINAL HOT TAKE: Gundam Wing is not perfect by any means, but I think the outright dismissal some may give it for its over-the-top elements and unconventional plotting and characterization does it a disservice, especially in a review. It’s not for everyone, but there’s more to its success than meets the eye. Anime is anime, and you could objectively apply this judgmental mentality to things as famous as Evangelion, saying it's just plain silly in elements like spoiler[Asuka and Shinji learning to dance together to fight an Angel or Misato having a pet penguin], and therefore it's a silly, aimless series that says and accomplishes nothing. Or what about Cowboy Bebop? spoiler[Spike gets thrown out a window, but still has the presence of mind to trigger an explosion behind him as he falls, and during all this miraculously survives a two-plus-story fall?] Yes, anime is anime. Oh, and his character arc is spoiler[basically a man who can’t escape his past and pays for it.] Don’t get me wrong, I love it. It’s over-the-top, but also has a sense of naturalistic humanity. But I see a bit of a double standard, since Wing does the same thing, but with a different vehicle, format, and presentation style. And, I mean, people champion UC Gundam series as nothing but “serious business” compared to something like Gundam Wing, but there are just as many weird moments overall in those with the non-grounded Newtype powers or scenes like spoiler[Amuro in Zeta Gundam doing a plane kamikaze against a mobile suit and parachuting out.] With everything I’ve laid out here, and the length of the podcast itself, it’s clear that Wing gives a lot to chew on. I agree with Zac that some of it is merely theoretical, but that is a pretty ambitious choice in and of itself for a show that’s meant to sell toys. Something like the recent, prestigious Gundam Unicorn…I don’t think it has as much to chew on as Gundam Wing, regardless of length, and it has just as many flights of fancy, if not more, while sticking closer to a lot of Gundam traditions. It’s worth noting that Gundam Wing and Endless Waltz can garner as much varied discussion as probably the whole of Universal Century. I understand that Wing took from Universal Century, but the execution and the tone, which is both crazy-bombastic and introspective at the same time with its largely-unique-for-Gundam philosophical monologues, are a completely different animal than any other Gundam. SEED Destiny is the closest in talking about politics and philosophy probably, but it’s a mile away from Wing. Gundam 00 has as similar setup and sense of action, but it’s much more narrow in its execution and goes off in a completely different direction. Gundam Iron Blooded Orphans is often a mafia drama disguised as a Gundam series, and even as it tries to delve into conflict, somehow it comes across as more superficial and piecemeal in execution to me than Wing. So, the hottest of the hot takes in closing: There are other Gundam series that do individual elements better, or have more blatantly cohesive and timeless story arcs, but I don’t think there is a more complete “meal” than Gundam Wing. I like how Zac said he got a meal out of it, whether he liked everything in it or not. Gundam Wing has a huge cast of characters and creative scenarios. (This is a series where people roll out of a plane and take over a warship, but also do a prison break by reprogramming Mobile Dolls to target their enemies, but also has a motorcycle chase that ends with a guy doing tightrope. The list could go on and on.) There are so many memorable moments and lines, either exciting, amusing, or thought-provoking. If you understand what it is trying to do, and don’t put preconceived notions on it, or what Gundam or anime should be from a modern perspective, it is to me the most “complete” Gundam experience. Maybe not “defining,” but complete--the most bang for your buck, the most to chew on. It has most everything the UC explored (outside of the controversial Newtype topic, which tends to result in various non-grounded deus ex machinas in what is supposed to be a war story), plus more. I've seen between 80 and 90 percent of the Gundam franchise, and even enjoying other Gundam series a great deal, I still feel the same about Wing. It’s taken a few hits in my opinion, but not enough to devalue it as much as Lauren seems to have. It’s not just nostalgia for me, or I wouldn’t be able to have some answers to the points that were brought up. Each time you watch it, with so much going on, you gain a little more insight, which gives it more replay value than the average Gundam series. There are things I’m bothered by, but the whole conquers those things for me to this point. It can be convenient and soap opera-like, but also puzzle-box-like in a way that most Gundams aren’t, making it compelling on multiple levels. For all its connections to other Gundams, you can’t say there is another Gundam or anime exactly like it. It’s odd, but Gundam Wing, despite all its references, is almost a separate, non-Gundam thing, like Outlaw Star, when you consider just how much iconography there is in it. It’s special in anime, just in a different way than, say, Gundam 0079. To use a music reference, off the top of my head, if 0079 was the Beatles or the Rolling Stones, then Wing was Nirvana or Foo Fighters. It’s not as “classical” in the traditional sense of expectations, but it’s just as valid, and represents its time well. Stuff like Iron Blooded Orphans comes across more like things like Imagine Dragons--it’s still doing thematic things, but it seems more polished and produced, less organic--and the Build Fighters movement is like Justin Timberlake hits, where it’s just supposed to be bright, poppy fun. So, your mileage will vary depending on what you’re expecting. Everyone is going to resonate with one style or another more than others, and that's natural and fine--anime and the definition of what qualifies as anime seems to always be changing in the fandom--but Wing has a lot to offer and made a big impact. As Zac said best, it's "charming." For anyone who read all this, I greatly appreciate it. I just want Wing to get a fully fair shake, and this kind of deep-dive perspective wasn’t completely represented in the podcast, though perhaps it was an understandable format issue. For what it was, with limited time, you did an incredible job with a lot of dense material; it just didn’t hit every point in a series like this--because it couldn’t, really--and so might have left the wrong impression about a few things. To this day, Gundam Wing still has some arguments and motivations I’d like to examine further with another rewatch. Those things might be accidental more than intentional in some cases, but regardless, this is an ambitious series in everything it wants to cram in, even by Gundam standards. …Hmm, I may one day do an in-depth podcast about Gundam Wing with these points and more, and maybe apply these kinds of deep dives to other series… Anyway, please don't take my passion and analysis as disregarding anything from the podcast. I appreciate how you mediated all the opinions. I just wanted to participate and fill in some of the blanks. I enjoy ANNcast and the incredible amount of work everyone at ANN does. Keep up the good work! P.S. As an aside, I would love for there to be an interview with Wing’s creators just completely about the circumstances and development process of what has now been called “Episode Zero.” Just how much of that was planned from the start, for instance? And why has it never been revisited by Sunrise given Wing's success? |
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Zeino
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Damn, and here I was planning to mount a defense of Wing but this completely blows any short essay I'd write out of the water. Well done, Lighting Count, if nothing else you firmly disproven the idea that Wing's fans are shallow or that the series itself has no depth or intelligent thought as certain other posters have implied.
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Codeanime93
Posts: 599 |
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Honestly I would love to see Zac and Jacob wade through Double Zeta because wow, that is a hard show to sit through at points. I'm like at episode 19 now and geez is it hard as a first time watcher of it. Especially the whole Moon Moon colony two parter that occurs. I'm sorry I already brought this up in another comment earlier in this forum but wow this series has been a chore to sit through.
I'm honestly hoping the series gets better as the first episode I swear is the most embarrassing I've seen Tomino ever do and one of the worst first episodes to a Gundam show or an anime show period. Also I enjoyed Lightning Counts nice essay on Wing, I've re-watched Wing recently and it really captures the confusion and chaos of war at times that I don't really think any other Gundam show really shows. |
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MadHi
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The notion that Wing makes no sense or is incoherent is quite silly. I admit, it took rewatching it and discussing it with others, re-reading side stories until I realized that because of how very layered it actually is, it can be quite difficult to follow. But after doing so, I realized that it's easy to forget what happened when and who said what and where, there was always something to go back to that makes me go 'OH THAT'S WHY!' since the show is always moving on and doesn't rely on side missions like SEED and IBO do, and minus 2 recap episodes the show didn't rely on flashbacks and hardly revisited previous events as reminders.
Quite impressive for a show that has had staff and writing hiccups midway. I think that gives it it's rewatch value (or lack of if you're not patient enough to handle the politics) and why it was not easy to follow especially for the younger crowd who only went in for the action. But after all that, I can honestly say that Wing is just the best in my opinion. Best Gundam and best anime. |
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
 Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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First, I want to say thank you for your incredible feedback. I read through all of your posts and really appreciated your perspective - as we were recording I sat there thinking "summarizing this absurdly complicated story and commenting on it coherently in one sitting like this feels like an impossible task, and this show is going to anger people when I get details wrong". I took over 4000 words worth of notes on the TV series and Endless Waltz, mostly marking down plot stuff, changes in political affiliation, a flow chart for the changing factions, story questions I had, plot points I found funny, that sort of thing - and it STILL felt woefully inadequate to summarize the main plot points in a straight line that makes sense and allows for commentary, especially in a conversational discussion rather than a lecture. I think we did OK, but I definitely anticipated corrections and blowback, especially on the stuff we didn't get quite right - but thankfully, most of the feedback so far - especially yours - has been illuminating and conversational rather than confrontational and angry. Frankly I'm blown away at the kindness and sheer depth of knowledge on display in your posts. Thank you very much for writing this up - we're lucky to have you as a listener. |
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Heishi
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I wish people like Lighting Count could do the same regarding shows I love that are misunderstood. |
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Cardcaptor Takato
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I love Gundam Wing even though it isn't particularly well written show mainly because I love it for it's camp and melodramatic moments and of course the hot guys are a major factor in it. Even if not always executed well, Gundam Wing was always good at building suspense with a lot of exciting cliffhangers. I think the weekday afternoon Toonami format also helped contribute to it's popularity. It's more exciting to watch Gundam Wing when you have to wait to find out what crazy plot twist will happen next then is just binge watching a bunch of episodes at once. I also personally still love the cheesiness of the Ocean dub which I think only adds to the camp factor. I don't feel like Gundam Wing is that much worse than other popular action anime with bad writing like Code Geass and Sword Art Online yet Wing seems to get a lot more flack than modern popular anime that have similar writing issues. Honestly while Wing might take it to more extremes, most Gundam shows in general seem to have a lot of angsty teens, melodrama, and convoluted plots, including even the original Gundam. I may be biased though because I personally prefer Macross as a whole to Gundam. In spite of it's flaws, Gundam Wing did contribute to the mainstreaming of anime in American fandom and raised the bar for the faithfulness that modern anime fans have come to expect from English dubs as it was one of the first mostly faithful dubs to air on Toonami.
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Zeino
Posts: 1098 |
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Well, I for one genuinely think that Wing has legitimately good and layered writing (see essay above as evidence for) that certainly put it's far above the likes of Sword Art Online or Geass R2 or such scared cows of the fandom as Zeta Gundam. It seems to me to be one of those works of entertainment that you either get or you don't respond well to at all. |
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