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Answerman - There's Bara Manga... Why Isn't There Bara Anime?


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Cetais



Joined: 02 Feb 2012
Posts: 499
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 5:37 pm Reply with quote
Lord Oink wrote:
xchampion wrote:
As a straight male I am definitely not the target audience, but hopefully it can be more assessable in the future. In the United States you find many shows with gay characters but very few where the MC is gay. With Japan still mostly being behind even more then the US I'm not surprised Bara isn't mainstream enough to get an anime. Maybe in the future tho.


There's lot of gayness in anime, just not the kind you want. Like people said, it's aimed at men and women into cute yuri and yaoi, because that kind of stuff will sell way more than butch lesbians or bara gays. There's just no profitable interest or market for it. Same reason why most josei titles are adapted into live-action instead of anime, josei anime sells horribly compared to shounen, shoujo, and seinen, but live-action adaptions have a chance at profit. Stuff like bara would sell even worse, since we're talking like 1% of the population.
Then why don't they try live action bara? Laughing

(... That's pretty much the case with the live action of My Brother's Husband, oops.)
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Yuvelir



Joined: 06 Jan 2015
Posts: 459
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:03 pm Reply with quote
A comment about yaoi - a strong motive behind the birth and initial expansion of yaoi, if I didn't understand wrong, is that it was used by girls and young women to explore their own [homo]sexuality with materials that would feel more acceptable/less incriminating to outsiders. This would be the reason why yaoi characters are so effeminate, as they're intended to be female surrogates rather than actual men.
Of course heterosexual women also liked it but that's more of an side-effect.

explosionforgov wrote:
I think that's why I like JoJo's so much. The first three protagonists have beautiful eyes with long eyelashes, but also rippling muscles. You don't have to choose between bara and bishounen.

HHMMMMMM

Brand wrote:
Scalfin wrote:
I'm 80% sure it's a direct Japonization of "bear."


Nope.

Wikipedia wrote:
The gay magazine Adonis was launched in 1952. The term bara in relation to gay material for men originated in the 1960s, possibly as a result of Bara kei (Ordeal by Roses, published in 1961), a collection of semi-nude photographs of the gay author Yukio Mishima by photographer Eikoh Hosoe,[3] and was reinforced by the early and influential gay men's magazine Barazoku (薔薇族, lit. "rose tribe"), founded in 1971 and the first gay magazine in Asia to be sold at mainstream bookshops.[4] Bara-eiga ("rose film") has been used since the 1980s to describe gay cinema.

And as an aside, this here would also be the origins of "yuri" as a term. When thinking about the female version of the "Bara-zoku" would be, the "Yuri-zoku" was brought up and so now stories pertaining to the "Yuri-zoku" are known as "yuri" (even if quite a few of them are aimed at men)..
Now if I could remember the name of the specific person that came up with the lillies...
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Mojave



Joined: 07 May 2017
Posts: 178
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:40 pm Reply with quote
I'm not personally interested in bara as a genre at all, but I would like to see its male body types more frequently used in anime in general. Takeo from Ore Monogatari is a great example of how that body type can be used really effectively on a character. And, of course, for the people who are into bara, it would be nice for them to have more that caters to their interests.
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tailor31415



Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 26
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:43 pm Reply with quote
will Golden Kamuy count? sure, there's no relationships, but there's some great fanservicey pages in the manga that hopefully will transfer over to the anime
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MetalEmolga



Joined: 12 Jan 2017
Posts: 14
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:49 pm Reply with quote
Yuvelir wrote:
A comment about yaoi - a strong motive behind the birth and initial expansion of yaoi, if I didn't understand wrong, is that it was used by girls and young women to explore their own [homo]sexuality with materials that would feel more acceptable/less incriminating to outsiders. This would be the reason why yaoi characters are so effeminate, as they're intended to be female surrogates rather than actual men.
Of course heterosexual women also liked it but that's more of an side-effect.


This isn't accurate. While there are some queer women who use it in that way, they are in the minority. Yaoi originated as a means to get around censorship in shojo manga. Originally you couldn't depict a young girl having sex in Shojo. So in order to get around that they depicted gay men instead. After it became successful it developed a life of it's own independent of it's original reason for existing. The reason the men look "effeminate" is because that's what's considered attractive to a lot of Shojo and BL fans. It's not just a BL thing.
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1dbad



Joined: 12 Jul 2015
Posts: 523
Location: Texas
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:35 pm Reply with quote
I hope we do see a bara anime one day. I mean even josei got a couple of anime attempts before shifting to live-action, so it would be nice to see at least one attempt.

I'd like to see more bara style guys in regular anime too. (and muscled women for the guys and gals that like them as well)
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Yuvelir



Joined: 06 Jan 2015
Posts: 459
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:40 pm Reply with quote
MetalEmolga wrote:
This isn't accurate. While there are some queer women who use it in that way, they are in the minority. Yaoi originated as a means to get around censorship in shojo manga. Originally you couldn't depict a young girl having sex in Shojo. So in order to get around that they depicted gay men instead. After it became successful it developed a life of it's own independent of it's original reason for existing. The reason the men look "effeminate" is because that's what's considered attractive to a lot of Shojo and BL fans. It's not just a BL thing.

Huh, so that's it.
In the last couple of years I've come across so many articles telling that other story that I took it as the genre's kickstarter.
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7PhoenixAshes



Joined: 29 Oct 2008
Posts: 90
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:21 pm Reply with quote
explosionforgov wrote:
I'd love to see more anime with beefy male protagonists-- I admit that as a bisexual woman, I do kind of want to see beefy straight men protecting their tiny girlfriends (something in the vein of My Love Story!, but perhaps with more of a fighting aspect), but also baras who are gay and comfortable with themselves.

I think that's why I like JoJo's so much. The first three protagonists have beautiful eyes with long eyelashes, but also rippling muscles. You don't have to choose between bara and bishounen.


I agree with every word in this statement 100%.
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configspace



Joined: 16 Aug 2008
Posts: 3693
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:38 pm Reply with quote
In Interview with Monster Girls, the protagonist Takahashi Tetsuo is unexpectedly muscular albeit covered up most of the time, and the series makes a point about the two girls who are attracted to him (the other teacher and a student) also being excited about this characteristic.

I'm curious is there a differentiation between the bara body types, like slim-yet-defined muscular type (typical sports anime/manga male), burly-but-still-bit-chubby/linebacker-ish type (e.g. My Brother's Husband) and bodybuilder type (super-gar protagonists in shounen and seinen)?
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Romuska
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Joined: 02 Mar 2004
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:53 pm Reply with quote
First off let me express how happy I am that this thread exists! I myself am DEFINITELY a fan of bara and it's very much underexposed compared to other anime that cater to niche audiences. As a gay man I've had to explain numerous times why popular yaoi titles don't appeal to me. Yuri On Ice being an exception for having damn good writing. In terms of mainstream bara fan service I'd like to think that Fullmetal Alchemist was a small stepping stone as mentioned earlier. Every dude in that show was ripped as hell. Even Ed!

Truth be told if there's one show that I think would have a chance at getting an anime it would be My Brother's Husband by Tagame. Who knows, if the live action series is a big enough hit perhaps an animation studio might be willing to take a chance make some history.

(Also I own that Massive manga collection pictured in the article. I'll gladly support official releases like this!)
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Compelled to Reply



Joined: 14 Jan 2017
Posts: 344
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:20 pm Reply with quote
xchampion wrote:
As a straight male I am definitely not the target audience, but hopefully it can be more assessable in the future. In the United States you find many shows with gay characters but very few where the MC is gay. With Japan still mostly being behind even more then the US I'm not surprised Bara isn't mainstream enough to get an anime. Maybe in the future tho.

Forced diversity doesn't necessarily reflect whether a society is "behind." Whenever homosexual characters are in something, it goes to show because there's always considerable backlash, especially on the internet.
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Shay Guy



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 1085
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:47 pm Reply with quote
Compelled to Reply wrote:
Forced diversity


Elaborate?
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katscradle



Joined: 05 Jan 2013
Posts: 469
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 12:40 am Reply with quote
MetalEmolga wrote:
Yuvelir wrote:
A comment about yaoi - a strong motive behind the birth and initial expansion of yaoi, if I didn't understand wrong, is that it was used by girls and young women to explore their own [homo]sexuality with materials that would feel more acceptable/less incriminating to outsiders. This would be the reason why yaoi characters are so effeminate, as they're intended to be female surrogates rather than actual men.
Of course heterosexual women also liked it but that's more of an side-effect.


This isn't accurate. While there are some queer women who use it in that way, they are in the minority. Yaoi originated as a means to get around censorship in shojo manga. Originally you couldn't depict a young girl having sex in Shojo. So in order to get around that they depicted gay men instead. After it became successful it developed a life of it's own independent of it's original reason for existing. The reason the men look "effeminate" is because that's what's considered attractive to a lot of Shojo and BL fans. It's not just a BL thing.


I have never heard this idea of it arising out of censorship before so I’m really curious where it comes from Question

Girl’s comics were a source of testing censors. But, the rock-n-roll girl’s comic Fire by Hideko Mizuno published from 1969-71 is the first modern girl’s comic in Japan I’m aware of to depict sex scenes.

BL is generally thought to have started out with shounen-ai in girl’s comics in late 1970 by Keiko Takemiya spoiler[with a kiss between her characters] in her short piece In the Sunroom. Hiromi Minegishi also had a short piece called Crossroads featuring a bi-racial homosexual relationship in 1970. It took Takemiya, who had taken an interest in male homosexuality through literature and films, years to convince editors to publish beginning in 1976 her famous The Song of the Wind and the Trees which did feature sex scenes. She has been on the record before about the relationship to BL with feminism. Another large work was The Heart of Thomas. Moto Hagio has said she made Thomas after going to see the French film Les amitiés particulières with Takemiya and their neighbor who read a gay men's magazine among other interests. Hagio started with two versions but, decided on using boys because she didn’t like the way her story worked with girls. It also took her awhile to publish, November Gymnasium first in 1971 and finally Thomas in 1974 which only implies spoiler[ a sexual assault].

One aspect people don’t discuss much is tanbi and depictions of male homosexuality going back centuries. This is why people are familiar with the aesthetics they are. True it is not just a BL thing because BL grew from something else which was inspired from also many other something elses.

Self published m/m stuff by women and professional BL publications coming into existence for teenagers to adults in following years and decades grew, with the genre we call BL not really forming until much later. Yaoi was a big enough thing to be seen as a challenge to some artists working in different categories at Comiket by 1979.

Over the years a lot of academics and artists have looked at BL and asked questions about its appeal beyond a pretty boy/guy with another pretty boy/guy. This has led to theorizing about gender and sexuality or sharing personal experiences with such works. BL can be a vehicle for the safe expression and exploration of fantasies, sexuality, gender, culture constructs, anxieties and trauma. It would seem Takemiya tried to liberate girls and women a bit through her homoerotic works.

This is also a reason I see as to why people find a lot a lot of teenage or younger characters in BL because of the demographics and history, unlike gei comi that has a bit different history though there is intersection.

Lemonchest wrote:
Is much bara about underage/barely legal teenagers? Seems to be what you have to have in order to get animated - regardless of target audience.


This idea makes me sad. As others said not really.
It is erotica intended for gay men so generally adult characters. While teenagers probably do seek out gei comi there have always been gatekeeping in place before the internet had such an impact. So some artists do consider what they put in their work more now because they don’t know who will be coming across it.

I seem to remember Gengoroh Tagame’s Gunji having at least one underage story that wasn’t published in the English edition. The main title has teenagers in it part of the time too. The English edition of Gunji actually might be the first title I’d suggest to someone wanting to check out Tagame’s erotic stuff. It’s reminiscent of some BL with its tragedy. Tagame actually started out professionally with JUNE and there are women who work in gei comi too. But, frankly there are a lot of other gei comi artists whose work I would put in front of someone first instead of Tagame because his erotic work is highly fetishist and he explores torture, sometimes historical examples in his titles. So its nice he did a general audience comic like My Brother's Husband that was adaptable.


Last edited by katscradle on Thu Mar 15, 2018 1:02 am; edited 2 times in total
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Agent355



Joined: 12 Dec 2008
Posts: 4645
Location: Crackberry in hand, thumbs at the ready...
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 12:43 am Reply with quote
Heishi wrote:

As a straight guy, I would love some anime with some beefy female protagonists. I, for one, would love to see beefy women protecting their tiny boyfriends. I'm so tired of seeing the same ol story of the strong man having to protect and rescue the smaller woman.
I wanna see a complete 180 of that!

That would be cool. When Hajime Isayama does fanservicey pictures of Mikasa and Annie, he draws them pumped! With a six pack! Always appreciated that he wants his female characters to be strong! (And Mikasa's constantly saving and protecting Erens-in-distress Very Happy)
Is it too late to hope that My Brother's Husband get an anime? I know anime adaptations are usually announced first, but plenty of manga and light novels get both types of adaptations these days. Maybe if the live action does really well?
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Heishi



Joined: 06 Mar 2016
Posts: 1005
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 1:01 am Reply with quote
Agent355 wrote:
Heishi wrote:

As a straight guy, I would love some anime with some beefy female protagonists. I, for one, would love to see beefy women protecting their tiny boyfriends. I'm so tired of seeing the same ol story of the strong man having to protect and rescue the smaller woman.
I wanna see a complete 180 of that!

That would be cool. When Hajime Isayama does fanservicey pictures of Mikasa and Annie, he draws them pumped! With a six pack! Always appreciated that he wants his female characters to be strong! (And Mikasa's constantly saving and protecting Erens-in-distress Very Happy)
Is it too late to hope that My Brother's Husband get an anime? I know anime adaptations are usually announced first, but plenty of manga and light novels get both types of adaptations these days. Maybe if the live action does really well?


For my 600th comment, I will say this: I do enjoy beefy women like Mikasa, but I'm talking ripped women.
Women that are very muscular. Like how a lot of straight females enjoy seeing characters like Armstrong from FMA.
I'm one of those guys who really likes the more muscular looking women, so hopefully one day there might be something for us, too.
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