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INTEREST: Boogiepop and Others Novel Illustrator Tweets Dissatisfaction With New Anime Designs


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TheAncientOne



Joined: 06 Oct 2010
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Location: USA (mid-south)
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 6:21 am Reply with quote
Does anyone here know Ogata's reputation in the industry? If for example, he has the reputation of being a pain to work with and uncompromising, there may have been a discussion along the lines of "Do we have to consult this guy?" "Well, technically we don't".
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Joshua Zarate
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:25 pm Reply with quote
Ashabel wrote:
Joshua Zarate wrote:
^^So just because some art styles are similar to some others, that is what makes it ugly to look at? what. You must have not seen a whole lot of shows recently and merely glossed over them, but yet you still try to project your stance on here anyway that people won’t be able to remember any character from any show that they’ve watched and that’s extremely unfair and untrue. Three quick examples of character designs from last year in Little Witch Academia, Made in Abyss, and Land of the Lustrous are all quite not generic, so your claim that all modern designs look like cheap visual novels is quite silly. It’s completely at odds with reality. Confused


I'm not sure how bringing up extreme exceptions to the rule changes the fact that you could put the key visuals to the new Boogiepop, Persona 5, Steins;Gate 0 and Re: Tokyo Ghoul next to each other, and then easily convince anyone who doesn't know the visuals' context that they're the exact same show.

Modern urban fantasy anime uses embarrassingly identical visual patterns that are basically "pseudo-live-action through the lense of Makoto Shinkai and with a dash of moe tossed in". It's a fair thing to criticize.

That’s quite something that you’re stretching just to make a point. (And trying to make it fact, no less) I find it hard to believe that people will be that accepting and find it more likely to have people being skeptical of them being the same show and not believing you. Not everyone is the same and the reason that I’m saying anything at all and criticizing the person I responded to was because their claim that ALL modern designs are cheap was false and I took issue with it.
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TarsTarkas



Joined: 20 Dec 2007
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Location: Virginia, United States
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:54 pm Reply with quote
Pierrot. wrote:
Using a live action show as an example is pretty dumb because something that can work in one medium won't work in another like live action.

It is not a matter of it working or not. It is a matter that it is the author’s work, and that the illustrator was hired to complement it, rather than gain control over it. I write a novel, and my publisher hires an artist to do some illustrations for it. That doesn’t give the illustrator rights to my work or the ability to have a say on how the adaptations go.

Dian Z wrote:
I have stated this in my previous post, buy you might want to consider that Ogata is credited as the original character designer, that kinda mean that they adapt the illustration/design accompanying the novel too. That's gotta say something I think.

Only if it is written in a contract. Since that is not mentioned, it doesn’t appear to be the case. That said, I can only base my opinions on what has been said. Who knows, maybe Ogata was promised something verbally, but later the publisher or rights holder went back on that. That’s why you have to get it in writing.
Still it is bad form to be in the industry and hating a show before it comes out. You can burn only so many bridges before you are stuck on an island by yourself.
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Usagi-kun



Joined: 03 Jul 2013
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Location: Nashville, TN
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 3:33 pm Reply with quote
Romuska wrote:
Maybe there's some behind-the-scenes stuff they're not talking about.


Always the golden rule in business vs. consumption, I believe. If it starts to trend, we'll learn more soon.
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Ashabel



Joined: 16 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 4:42 pm Reply with quote
Joshua Zarate wrote:
That’s quite something that you’re stretching just to make a point. (And trying to make it fact, no less) I find it hard to believe that people will be that accepting and find it more likely to have people being skeptical of them being the same show and not believing you. Not everyone is the same and the reason that I’m saying anything at all and criticizing the person I responded to was because their claim that ALL modern designs are cheap was false and I took issue with it.


I'm not stretching a single thing. There is absolutely nothing that tells me this image and this one come from different series. Tokyo Ghoul at least has the vague benefit of unique face designs, while Steins;Gate 0 decided to go for heavily filtered backgrounds instead of Generic Cityscape 101. Persona 5 and Boogiepop though? Nah, I could sell them as the same show without batting a finger.

Urban fantasy anime has a bad habit of using extremely similar visual design that attempts the world as one just like ours, so they can more easily catch the audience off-guard with the slightest deviation from normalcy. But while that technique worked the first two thousand times, at this point it's so tired that it might as well be called a creative shortcut.

Naming three shows that were specifically called out as massive deviations from the norm doesn't change that yes, most anime set in modern day has been turning more and artistically homogenous. I feel Boogiepop's key visual is an excellent example of that.
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Joshua Zarate
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 5:45 pm Reply with quote
Ashabel wrote:
Joshua Zarate wrote:
That’s quite something that you’re stretching just to make a point. (And trying to make it fact, no less) I find it hard to believe that people will be that accepting and find it more likely to have people being skeptical of them being the same show and not believing you. Not everyone is the same and the reason that I’m saying anything at all and criticizing the person I responded to was because their claim that ALL modern designs are cheap was false and I took issue with it.


I'm not stretching a single thing. There is absolutely nothing that tells me this image and this one come from different series. Tokyo Ghoul at least has the vague benefit of unique face designs, while Steins;Gate 0 decided to go for heavily filtered backgrounds instead of Generic Cityscape 101. Persona 5 and Boogiepop though? Nah, I could sell them as the same show without batting a finger.

Urban fantasy anime has a bad habit of using extremely similar visual design that attempts the world as one just like ours, so they can more easily catch the audience off-guard with the slightest deviation from normalcy. But while that technique worked the first two thousand times, at this point it's so tired that it might as well be called a creative shortcut.

Naming three shows that were specifically called out as massive deviations from the norm doesn't change that yes, most anime set in modern day has been turning more and artistically homogenous. I feel Boogiepop's key visual is an excellent example of that.

I’m finding your tone displeasing. At some point, everything is going to be used up and nothing will ever truly be unique again. What then, do we just stop making anything anymore because it’s not “unique” enough? Unique doesn’t always equal good anyway. If you find it tired, I’m sorry to hear that, but not everybody is going to share your thoughts on it and will likely find it to be more of a nitpick than anything else, especially compared to other aspects of shows like story, characters, fluidity of animation, etc. I’m not going to stretch this out anymore than it needs to be, so I’ll be moving on from this now.
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Meongantuk



Joined: 03 Jun 2016
Posts: 206
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 6:44 pm Reply with quote
Dardre wrote:
Dian Z wrote:
I have stated this in my previous post, buy you might want to consider that Ogata is credited as the original character designer, that kinda mean that they adapt the illustration/design accompanying the novel too. That's gotta say something I think.


Not really. It's simply acknowledging him. I do find it interesting that in the Orphan news article, the illustrator for that novel series was contacted by the editor of the light novels about the new anime, not by the animation company.

So I have to ask again (and please, no speculation or deduction, I'm looking for facts): Is an animation company expected to contact the illustrator of a light novel property when planning an adaptation?


Which animation company? Madhouse? Not really. They're just doing what they're told by the higher ups. They probably mistook Ogata's silence as approval.
If you mean the production committee which include Kadokawa (the LN publisher), then yes if you use the design. Most of the time even the writer is told by the editor than some dude from anime studio (except maybe when the writer/illust is in close relationship with the studio). It's the publisher's job.

It's not mentioned in the article, but apparently the staff also ask him to do this new anime related works (probs BD bonuses), So he isn't supposed to be left out.
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Pierrot.



Joined: 17 Nov 2015
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 10:45 pm Reply with quote
TarsTarkas wrote:
Pierrot. wrote:
Using a live action show as an example is pretty dumb because something that can work in one medium won't work in another like live action.

It is not a matter of it working or not. It is a matter that it is the author’s work, and that the illustrator was hired to complement it, rather than gain control over it. I write a novel, and my publisher hires an artist to do some illustrations for it. That doesn’t give the illustrator rights to my work or the ability to have a say on how the adaptations go.

Then you don't know how it's done in the anime industry. Illustrator's are always involved in the anime production in one way or another whether it's to draw the BD covers or to guide the character designer. There's a reason they're credited along with the author in the Opening and Endings unlike in live action shows.

You're also missing the point. He doesn't want to gain control but is upset that he wasn't even aware there was an anime for the series he had drawn art for years. He's done the art for the manga version as well so he obviously takes pride in his work.
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TarsTarkas



Joined: 20 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 1:43 am Reply with quote
Pierrot. wrote:
Then you don't know how it's done in the anime industry. Illustrator's are always involved in the anime production in one way or another whether it's to draw the BD covers or to guide the character designer. There's a reason they're credited along with the author in the Opening and Endings unlike in live action shows.

You're also missing the point. He doesn't want to gain control but is upset that he wasn't even aware there was an anime for the series he had drawn art for years. He's done the art for the manga version as well so he obviously takes pride in his work.

If what you say is true, then there should be a written contract that spells that out. Doesn't sound like that is the case though.
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Dardre



Joined: 16 Mar 2006
Posts: 149
PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 1:53 am Reply with quote
Meongantuk wrote:


Which animation company? Madhouse? Not really. They're just doing what they're told by the higher ups. They probably mistook Ogata's silence as approval.
If you mean the production committee which include Kadokawa (the LN publisher), then yes if you use the design. Most of the time even the writer is told by the editor than some dude from anime studio (except maybe when the writer/illust is in close relationship with the studio). It's the publisher's job.

It's not mentioned in the article, but apparently the staff also ask him to do this new anime related works (probs BD bonuses), So he isn't supposed to be left out.


But they aren't using his designs (not that he would likely own them in the first place since this appears to be similar to Western 'work for hire'), just acknowledging that he was the first to illustrate these characters.

As for "the staff" (Madhouse? Kadokawa?) asking him to do new work related to the anime, what is your source?
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Aresef



Joined: 22 Jun 2005
Posts: 540
Location: MD
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 4:49 pm Reply with quote
And here I didn't even know the new anime was even a thing. I gotta stop living under a rock.
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Megiddo



Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Posts: 7995
Location: IL
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 9:27 pm Reply with quote
Gotta agree with the artist, that key visual is terrible if that's the style chosen for the Boogiepop anime to be done in. I wouldn't want to be credited in any form for such a terrible design if I was never even given the opportunity to provide input or have my say regarding it.
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