Forum - View topicVice & Luna - Mind the Gatemaster
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leafy sea dragon
 Posts: 7163 Location: Another Kingdom |
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You'll get a lot more out of Osmosis Jones if you have a good working knowledge of human physiology, particularly immunology and epidemiology, because many of the jokes are puns with them, both visual and wordplay. You'll get a lot more out of the Shin Megami Tensei games if you're a folkloricist as all of the demons are mythological figures from around the world. You'll get a lot more out of Criminal Minds if you've studied criminal history, as a good half of the cases they tackle are based on real-world murderers. But all of them can be enjoyed without any such knowledge. It's just a bonus so you can enjoy it even more. It's only a problem if the work in question becomes impenetrable without prior knowledge of something else.
Clearly, this is a routine she's practiced for all instances of someone trying out the show without playing the games to 100% status prior. Which is why I'm disappointed it wasn't a musical number.
And then there's One Piece, which is full of references to earlier stuff in the series which you'll get the most of if you read/watch from the beginning (as well as understand the references to real-world pirates and their actions). But any rational One Piece fan knows that this is a TREMENDOUS time investment that most people will not find worth it, so they tend to accept new people getting into the series no matter where they begin from.
The issue with this behavior, however, lies in the assumption that everyone wants to enjoy some particular thing to their fullest, when this is definitely not true. For any video game with a lot of side stuff, for instance, only a minority will bother to get 100% status. Most of the people I encounter offline are content with playing a game to the end credits. To them, that's all the satisfaction they want, and anything more to them is a burden. I had a roommate who was genuinely shocked that I would attempt to complete a game to its fullest, because I was the first person he ever met to do this. That is, what if the person you're speaking to doesn't WANT to invest the time to enjoy something fully? What if they just want some quick entertainment and then move on to something else? Not everyone wants to be a fan. Some people just want to enjoy the ride and get off when they feel they've had their fill. I mean, to enjoy The Simpsons it its fullest, you ought to watch the Tracey Ullman Show shorts too, as the show will sometimes refer to them, but of all of the people who have ever watched at least one episode of The Simpsons, what percentage actually saw those shorts?
You'd probably freak out at the way my father watched movies on TV: He rarely ever saw a movie from beginning to end in one go, and would instead watch it from the middle to the end, then watch it from the beginning some other time up to where he jumped in. He did the same approach to TV shows too...and honestly, with most TV shows that have already started, so would I: I'll watch it to when the show takes a season break, then see if I can play catch-up. I don't care that I'm seeing something out of order. |
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Vanadise
 Posts: 493 |
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Here's a hot take: I think Fate/Stay Night is actually not very good -- one of the weakest entries in the Fate franchise, even. The anime series based on it have some good parts but also some pretty bad parts, and the original VN is a real chore to push through. My opinion is that you actually get a lot more enjoyment out of your time spent if you watch Fate/Zero first and then go read some wiki entries or something to catch up on what you missed in F/SN.
That's how you make Fate/Gatekeepers really upset. |
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Emdykay
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Ah the good old Fate gatekeeping debate, never gets old. Ok my take on it:
Play F/SN first? Filthy casuals, you start at Kara no Kyoukai, then continue with Notes, Tsukihime and so forth! Ok, jokes aside (although in my opinion Kara no Kyoukai is a decent entry point to the Nasuverse) here are my real thoughts: Even though I saw the Deen anime back when I was a teen I do consider my actual entry point to the franchise Fate/ Zero, mostly because I wasn´t very fond of the old show even back then and only gave Zero a chance after taking a fancy to Urobuchi, following Madoka and Psycho-Pass. Following this up with Kara no Kyoukai after heavy recommendation, I was still wary of Nasu himself due to my memories of the Deen show, I was mightily surprised at finding that material not that much different from Urobuchi´s writing and decided to give Type-Moon another chance, starting with Tsukihime and following it up with the F/SN VN. And yeah, my first thought after finishing F/SN was: Holy crap, is F/Z awesome. You know I liked it before, but it jumped from very good show to flat out one of the best anime has to offer. I think part of the problem is that F/Z is thoroughly enjoyable even if you did not read or don´t have any kind of knowledge of the VN. Because in those cases where you start a sequel or prequel and don´t get whats going on or don´t enjoy it at all and someone comes along and tells you to maybe start at the beginning to enjoy this, it doesn´t sound that farfetched. But in this case it might seem ridiculous if someone starts going on and on about how much better this is if you start at the bottom and might easily seem condescending and the mediocre, at best, Deen adaption doesn´t motivate that much either ( I always think it is super funny when people claim how much different F/Z and F/SN are based on the old show... I wonder if they will still say that after Heavens Feel finished airing?^^). On the other hand, due to F/Z´s nature as frequent candidate for "best anime ever" and the enthusiam Fate fans have for the franchise this also comes up often and with strong emotions attached to it. And I think both sides often don´t understand each others perspectives. The Fate fans want to share their enjoyment of the franchise, which heavily relies on digging deep into it, more of that later, and the "casuals" just enjoyed the show and don´t see a reason to dig any deeper than that. Sure there are people who are simply condescending or want to make a huge cult thingy out of the franchise, but from my personal, albeit biased perspective, I mostly see enthusiats trying to share their enjoyment and sometimes being frustrated at others for not wanting to share in it or not being all that good at etiquette and basic manners while doing so... Next up an issue not about the F/SN or F/Z first debate but the Fate franchise in general: Somebody, I think it was actually around here, said "There is no such thing as a casual Fate fan" and I totally see what they meant with this statement. I think many people enjoy the franchise and it´s universe as a whole a lot more than they enjoy single works of it, myself included. And that is where another part of the presumed gatekeeping attitude comes from, because to enjoy the Fate franchise in a more global perspective rather than piece by piece you, well... would have had to consume a bunch of it´s instances. And Type-Moon sure as hell caught up on the fact that quite a sizeable part of their audience just loves the franchises universe, idiosyncrasies and it´s fandom a lot more than single pieces of it and started catering to those sentiments, Fate/ Extra is probably the best example of it, to the point that I have to wonder if this is a sound business strategy (I mean they even topicalized a fandom debate concerning it and made it a fairly central point, something that would obvioulsy lost on someone chiming in for the first time). And I seriously wonder why there actually people playing and enjoying Fate GO who are not invested in Fate. Not supposed to be mean, I literally don´t understand, and sure would like someone to tell me what they like about it if it´s not the fanservice... because to me this game consists of 95% Fate fanservice. All of that being said I actually think Fate/ Zero is pretty much the best entry point possible for the franchise, heck I even use it to introduce people to anime. Because F/Z is, as mentioned, great regardless of previous interaction with the franchise, but the VN on the other hand is pretty flawed. It sure has it´s great moments, ideas and concepts, but overall it is a drag, only shines on occasion (better as a franchise and all that yaknow?) and I am pretty sure if I hadn´t been into the Nasuverse already thanks to F/Z and KnK I would not have completed it, as it´s worthwile moments start aggregating towards the end mostly... which means reading 2 or 3 average VNs that are mostly boring beforehand. So you mostly spoil yourself on the not so exciting parts, while being invested enough to pull through to the good parts, then can start to enjoy the franchise as a whole, seems good enough to me. |
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jl07045
 Posts: 1527 Location: Riga, Latvia |
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If you want to casually enjoy historic/mythical figures fighting each other then it honestly doesn't matter what the entry point is. Literally every entry repeats the Holy Grail War rule exposition and the finer details are irrelevant for surface enjoyment.
If you want to get into the franchise then I don't see how F/Z is a good point to start since Urobuchi has written a total of one story for it (unless you count the F/Z event in Grand Order). Urobuchi fits in well enough, but ultimately it's Nasu's sandbox, he proofreads and approves of everything and it's his grand narrative not Urobuchi's. The whole reason why this "secondary" crap happened was because F/Z introduced a lot of new people to the franchise, many of whom were disappointed that it was different than what they expected from F/Z and started getting bullied for complaining about it. |
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Emdykay
Posts: 85 |
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I fail to see how the number of works its author contributed to a franchise on its own is an argument regarding a works suitability as entry point to said franchise, especially, as you said yourself, it fits in well.
The argument regarding one persons artistic vision though is fairly weak in the case of Fate, which has been much less of an auteur work rather than a multi-author work for years now, where a multitude of not only spin-offs but fully official instances were not penned by Nasu himself, as he mostly resigned himself to franchise composition. |
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jl07045
Posts: 1527 Location: Riga, Latvia |
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I said it fits 'well enough' and then continued the sentence. The thing is Urobuchi is strong enough an author to bring in his own spin and ideas. F/Z does not conflict with Nasu's Fate, they both made sure of that, but I can distinguish their styles well enough and Nasu's style is the one that dominates in the franchise. Especially since the new writers are all just writing mediocre spin-offs of F/SN (I've heard good things about Strange Fake though). |
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ThatMoonGuy
Posts: 364 |
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Pff. You're not a true fan unless you start with the original versions of Mahoyo and Fate. Anything else is actually a crime. As for the FSN vs FZ debate, I stand for FSN all the way. It sure does need some polish and a revised edition could cut make it far better than it but it still has many, many interesting ideas. FZ is pretty much a tap on the thematical holes left from what FSN couldn't or didn't explore. |
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Chrysostomus
Posts: 335 |
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This is what the Fate "secondary" issue is all about. Last edited by Chrysostomus on Thu Apr 19, 2018 6:12 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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zrnzle500
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^Indeed that is the issue, which this comic touches on. That those who haven’t played the original are not only lesser but not to be taken seriously, even as relates to the anime adaptations, even on matters like recommending a jumping on point to the anime adaptations or a reviewer critiquing the anime. If one were having a discussion about the original, perhaps that sort of attitude would be warranted, but when that extends to any and all discussions of the franchise, it becomes the sort of elitism this comic is trying to satirize.
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EricJ2
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I used to watch those shorts, and it's a good way to put your finger on that ever-elusive question we've asked for twenty years now, Where/When Did The Show First Go Wrong? Or how a knowing comic-strip nudge in the ribs about everyone's 10-yo. family years snapped its tethers and rampaged into an elephantine, self-righteous atheist street-corner screed on The Frustrations That Joe Idiot and Our Hypocritical PC Mainstream Society Inflict Upon Poor Persecuted Smart People. You'll never look at Matt Groening's ego the same way again. Those who literally grew up never knowing the show NOT to be on, only suspect that it might not be as classic as it used to be.
In this case, though, we're talking about games vs. their anime incarnations (and the anal-retentiveness the argument brings up)-- Only last week we had a thread over Akiba's Trip: the Anime, and first-time viewers asking "Er, they're pulling off everyone's pants...What am I watching?  "
Why, you're watching a game. On a series that was supposed to market its exposure, but also appeal to a known demographic that wanted to watch out of loyalty. Me, I don't play app-fighters/RPGs (bring it to the consoles, or don't make it at all!--Save the app games for Phoenix Wright and Puzzle & Dragons, where we can play them!), so I have literally NO idea who or what happens in F/Z except seeing the new "Japan's version of Joan of Arc" characters pop up on the ad banners for a snicker. (Oh, wait, that's Fate: Grand Order...WTH-ever.) Would I enjoy the anime? Possibly. I suspect I'd be a bit confused, though. |
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leafy sea dragon
Posts: 7163 Location: Another Kingdom |
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I'm not entirely clear on what a "primary" or "secondary" is, but from what I can gather from context, it still doesn't sound like it matters to someone who doesn't care whether they are a primary or secondary. From your context, I'd be a tertiary or quaternary in many things, and it doesn't bother me because I don't interact with fans of those things. |
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ThatMoonGuy
Posts: 364 |
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It's not that simple. Since the Fate/Zero anime, a lot of people treat that as the default Fate and act like it is the only Fate that matters or even the only good one completely dismissing the original work. You could see that during UBW launch but, really, you can see it pretty much whenever the discussion comes down to FSN vs FZ. And when the parties arguing that FZ is good and Nasu is some bad writer with zero narrative sense spoiler[And I'm totally not gone diss those guys from that column] while Urobuchi is that awesome auteur who turned the trash that is FSN into something good based mostly on their respective animes it gets real annoying real fast. That would be, mutatis mutandis, like people saying Les Miserables is bad based on the Hugh Jackman movie or the people who think D&D is all jokes and gags based on some people's let's plays and so on. It's an unfair assesment that can feel pretty annoying if you're a fan of FSN. Given that, it's pretty easy to feel like those people aren't True Fans a feeling I... partly aggree with. I mean, sure, you can like one over the other for whatever reason you find fair and you can compare the animes but I reserve the right to raise an eyebrow everytime I see someone say that FZ (as a narrative) is better than FSN and that Urobuchi is a better writer than Nasu. |
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Redbeard 101
Oscar the Grouch
Forums Superstar  Posts: 16935 |
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You can disagree with someone over which director is better, which adaptation is better, which starting point is better, etc. The moment you start tossing out the "true fan" phrase however, in any fashion, you* loose all credibility and come off as nothing more than a pompous elitist. *I say you in a generalized sense. As far as FS is concerned, people should just be able to watch things how they want without being badgered and insulted by other people because they choose to enjoy the various series in whatever order they want. |
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Calsolum
 Posts: 898 |
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good lord that sounds horrible! How do you people sleep at night?!? 
On a serious note that really seems highly unusual, I simply can't comprehend why someone would consume media that way but hey long as you guys enjoy it.
Ok thats it. You and me. Right here. Right now. Actually no I'll fight u IRL bro. Gimme your address. Alright with that joke out of the way, I do agree with you on some points. The original anime was... bad. well I liked it but it was for lack of a better term it probably had a niche audience who truly loved it. Honestly, I think its because it adapted a 'third' of the VN that was never meant to be 'separated' into 3 chunks but consumed one after another. Does it require a lot of investment? it most certainly does, which is why I think the fate 'fans'(the ones who know the full story or think they do) who do put in the effort to consume the whole thing are so loud when people bash various parts of it. That said even though the first fate anime is the weakest in the series I'd still recommend seeing the anime before zero, mainly cause the transition from zero to fate is very jarring and makes the flaws stand out even more. zero to UBW on the other hand is alot smoother though. @Emdykay You raise some great points but I do disagree that Zero should be the entry point to fate. In that same vein I can't disagree on its effectiveness to introduce people to fate. Its honestly a shame because if you get people hooked with Zero, a small compact and polished series, then you have the 'main' fate story that's spread over 50 something episodes, and 4 movies, of which haven't yet aired. Even then I can only guess what was changed to trim the story to fit said medium. As for Fate/Extra I absolutely love it solely because it spawned best girl Tamamo-no-Mae.
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leafy sea dragon
Posts: 7163 Location: Another Kingdom |
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Well, for my father, spoilers meant nothing to him, and because of the way he raised me, the same goes for me: I don't really feel the first-time-watching experience the same way most other people do. Heck, for that matter, I'll often jump into a serial as it's going on, piece things together, and enjoy it from there on out without watching/reading/playing the stuff before it. This is how soap operas work, for instance: The most popular ones have about 250 half-hour or full-hour episodes per year (that is, a new episode airs every weekday), and there is just no way anyone can have the time to start watching As the World Turns or All My Children from the start. This is probably the secret to Bleach's success too, in spite of it being a punching bag: It is very accessible regardless of where you start consuming it. As these series managed to gain a big audience, I'd bet most people will begin a series somewhere other than the beginning and never look back. A lot rarer with movies, of course. |
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