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Answerman - Are "Upscaled" Blu-Rays Worth The Upgrade?


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Angel M Cazares



Joined: 23 Sep 2010
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 4:16 pm Reply with quote
yuna49 wrote:
How common are those compared to ones that have been "panned-and-scanned" to create a 16:9 version of a show shot originally in 4:3? That's what I think of when I hear about upscaling to Blu-ray.

That does not seem common. I am only aware of Funimation's DBZ BD's, which I don't think is even an upscale.
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Spoofer



Joined: 03 Aug 2003
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 4:46 pm Reply with quote
yuna49 wrote:
How come the issue of translating from a 4:3 aspect ratio to 16:9 wasn't addressed? Does this article only concern higher-resolution versions that don't change the aspect ratio? How common are those compared to ones that have been "panned-and-scanned" to create a 16:9 version of a show shot originally in 4:3? That's what I think of when I hear about upscaling to Blu-ray. I'd like to hear more about how the image is reshaped.


As others have said, almost no one who cares about video quality would ever want something like this, since the only ways in which to transform something from 4:3 to 16:9 would be to either stretch the picture, or chop off the top and bottom of the picture and then still stretch the resolution (for digital shows). Either way, you're screwing up the original presentation, and the originally-intended look of the show. Most decent modern TVs already allow the viewer to do these on their own anyway, via Stretch and Zoom, which all those crazies can use to accomplish essentially the same effect.

Funimation ruined DBZ by chopping the 4:3 image to make it 16:9 since they knew the casual DBZ bros probably wouldn't even notice or care, and, IDK, figured they'd turn off more casual fans by "not taking advantage of the entire screen" as opposed to actual DBZ videophiles they'd lose by cropping the picture. Which doesn't make any sense since the casual fans don't even care or complain to begin with, and all of Funimation's polling showed overwhelming support for 4:3. But whatever, I have the Dragon Boxes, so I'm personally set. =/

Thankfully I'm not really aware of any other anime butchering the picture like that, at least on the American side. Sometimes the Japanese companies do so when rereleasing an OVA or whatever in theaters (like the Rurouni Kenshin OVAs to their movie equivalents), but that's pretty rare too.
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Ouran High School Dropout



Joined: 28 Jun 2015
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:10 pm Reply with quote
Like Justin said, upconverts truly demand a case-by-case approach. Wink

Some of the early attempts were real hack jobs, but more recent ones can be rather pleasing, especially in terms of color saturation. And, as others have mentioned, lossless audio is a definite plus! At times, I'll buy even without a review when the the original DVD release is really old--say, late 90s to about 2003; most times when I've rolled the dice like this, it's paid off well.

And I just have to add: to mess with the OAR is to court death! Twisted Evil
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NJ_



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:50 pm Reply with quote
Codeanime93 wrote:
Well I have read Amazon reviews where they said watching ZZ Gundam on Blu-Ray was pretty much worthless. The high-definition didn't work on that show apparently.


Gundam ZZ's remaster was fine, the only exception was with episode 1 which was a 1080i upscale due to being a recap/preview episode that was edited on tape. The Japanese Blu-ray release had the same issue but the rest of the show was also fine.
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Shar Aznabull



Joined: 12 Jan 2015
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:01 pm Reply with quote
What drives me nuts is when they downscale the upscale for DVD releases, especially when the upscale is overly filtered. Funimation's Wolf Rain did this, leading to a situation where even though the Bandai DVDs have some really nasty compression artifacts they STILL have more visible detail than the Funi DVDs. It's a darn shame too because their FMA and Scrapped Princess releases are objective improvements over the older DVDs. Glad I keep my old CRT around for stuff like this and as far as I'm concerned, unless there's a substantial upgrade to be had with an upscale SD-BD is the future of cataloging SD anime.
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Spoofer



Joined: 03 Aug 2003
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:33 pm Reply with quote
Yeah, I just flat out ignore anything QTEC, obviously. I've skipped out on Galaxy Angel, Gundam 0079, Wolf's Rain, etc. as well since they're likewise overly filtered. I'll pick up something like FMA or Death Note since overall they're better, especially without all the compression problems their respective DVDs exhibited. It sometimes involves quite a bit of sleuthing to discover what'll actually look better as an upscale, and which I feel remain looking better on DVD.

I rewatched FLCL this past week, and got a friend into it who watched it via Hulu. I dealt with the imperfect deinterlacing via the Ultimate Edition DVDs as well as some compression issues, but I feel it was the superior way to watch it compared to its miracle QTEC upscale that produces an overly-hardened, edge-enhanced look that still manages to be blurry as hell.

It really changes my impression of a show when my eye ends up focusing on the hard outlines of characters, rather than the soft whole of the characters themselves. Wasn't Funi's DVD rerelease of Haibane Renmei one of those upscaled downscales? That perfectly illustrates what I'm talking about, as hardening up the outlines in that show just entirely betrayed its original gentle, soft feel.
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Coup d'État



Joined: 29 Dec 2017
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:30 am Reply with quote
After buying Manga for 17, I just last month started to buy Anime, and I find all of this rather complicated. The fact that there are US/UK/AUS and German releases in either/or Bluray/DVD to chose from doesn't help.
I decided to go for BD whenever possible. I got Haibane Renmei on DVD because I got it really cheap, but I think that was a mistake. However, I don't think I'd re-buy anything just because a newer version get's released later, as long as I'm happy with the DVD.

In cases where the Anime gets remastered, as YuYu Hakusho did, and a BD and a DVD version is released, will the DVD version be a compressed version of the remaster, or just the old data? BD/DVD comparisons often exist, but don't specify wether the DVD image comes from the new or old release.

When I did my research, what stood out was how many Anime never got the BD treatment. NGE is especially baffling. I used to own the platinum box, but never got it back after lending it to someone and hoped to re-buy the series. Whelp.
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Blanchimont



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:26 am Reply with quote
Coup d'État wrote:
When I did my research, what stood out was how many Anime never got the BD treatment. NGE is especially baffling.

It did get. In Japan.
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NJ_



Joined: 31 Oct 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:21 am Reply with quote
Coup d'État wrote:
In cases where the Anime gets remastered, as YuYu Hakusho did, and a BD and a DVD version is released, will the DVD version be a compressed version of the remaster, or just the old data? BD/DVD comparisons often exist, but don't specify wether the DVD image comes from the new or old release.


In Yu Yu Hakusho's case, the season 1-4 DVDs are just re-releases of the eight double-disc sets that came out a few years prior (2006-2007) while the Blu-ray season sets used Japan's original Blu-ray remaster from 2009-2010.

Quote:
When I did my research, what stood out was how many Anime never got the BD treatment. NGE is especially baffling. I used to own the platinum box, but never got it back after lending it to someone and hoped to re-buy the series. Whelp.


It did get on Blu-ray in Japan, the main reason we still don't have it here yet is because of restrictions related to the Rebuild movies since according to Madman, Japan will only offer it when the movies are done and considering that there is still no 4.0 yet, it hasn't happened.
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Zalis116
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Joined: 31 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:23 am Reply with quote
Greed1914 wrote:
You do have a good point there. I have the original Geneon [Gungrave] release, and I can't say that I miss the days of seven discs for a 26 episode series.
I don't know, there may be reason to feel nostalgic for those days, now that we're starting to get 26-episode series on 3 DVDs, or 13-episode series on 1 DVD. Obviously that's not as much of an issue on Blu-Ray, but for series that must remain DVD-only for whatever reason, even 6 or 7 eps per disc can be pushing it. I've heard that the Gungrave BDs fall into the "worse than DVD" category, but fortunately I found a better option that's still space-friendly -- the Funimation Anime Classics DVD release, which contains the original 7 Geneon DVDs (no Funimation branding whatsoever = original Geneon authoring) within the width of 2 standard cases.

NJ_ wrote:
Codeanime93 wrote:
Well I have read Amazon reviews where they said watching ZZ Gundam on Blu-Ray was pretty much worthless. The high-definition didn't work on that show apparently.


Gundam ZZ's remaster was fine, the only exception was with episode 1 which was a 1080i upscale due to being a recap/preview episode that was edited on tape. The Japanese Blu-ray release had the same issue but the rest of the show was also fine.
Hmm, maybe the reviewers only watched the first episode? Of course, as many people know Wink , Blu-Rays of pre-2000 shows are not always remastered from film. Those upscales should probably be avoided even more heavily than early/mid-00s SD digipaint upscales.

Shar Aznabull wrote:
What drives me nuts is when they downscale the upscale for DVD releases, especially when the upscale is overly filtered. Funimation's Wolf Rain did this, leading to a situation where even though the Bandai DVDs have some really nasty compression artifacts they STILL have more visible detail than the Funi DVDs. It's a darn shame too because their FMA and Scrapped Princess releases are objective improvements over the older DVDs.
Apparently Shana 2nd suffers from this syndrome as well -- Funi used the disappointing JP BD upscale, and made their DVDs from the Blu-Ray source. So theoretically, the best version out there would be the R2J DVDs, but even the fansubbing scene never put out English-subtitled rips of them. Because apparently everyone was satisfied with station-upscaled 720p TV-rips, re-encoded to add fabulous hardsubbed signs and karaoke.
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Coup d'État



Joined: 29 Dec 2017
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:10 am Reply with quote
NJ_ wrote:

In Yu Yu Hakusho's case, the season 1-4 DVDs are just re-releases of the eight double-disc sets that came out a few years prior (2006-2007) while the Blu-ray season sets used Japan's original Blu-ray remaster from 2009-2010.

Thanks, that is useful! With that info, the DVDs really aren't an option at all. (That stuff is probably common knowledge / easy enough to get, but as I had never before looked into Anime releases before, it's a bit much all at once.)

Quote:
It did get on Blu-ray in Japan, the main reason we still don't have it here yet is because of restrictions related to the Rebuild movies since according to Madman, Japan will only offer it when the movies are done and considering that there is still no 4.0 yet, it hasn't happened.

Ah, right. I knew that there is a Japanese BD release, but there has been no western release, and all DVD sets seem to be long out of print.
Very interesting to learn about the licensing relations to 4.0. That just makes all the waiting worse, imo ...
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Spoofer



Joined: 03 Aug 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 6:11 am Reply with quote
^ Given how much anime I collect, from the start I decided it would be best to simply restrict the scope of what releases I buy solely to official North American versions (as well as a few "official" imports that RightStuf occasionally offers, though even then it would've been more cost-effective to wait for eventual domestic releases for many of them). Stops me from being overwhelmed at all the choices available, spares me from doing endless research for every possible release for every anime I'm interested in, and most importantly protects me from falling into the rabbit hole of paying Japanese prices on everything...

I don't end up with the best worldwide release of a show as a result (again, unless I wanted to pay Japanese prices on everything, or Korean maybe from what I hear), and some shows I'd love on BD (Evangelion, Berserk, etc.) but have to live with the DVD releases (which aren't bad for these two), but it's a policy that keeps me sane and on-budget, so I'm fine with it.

As far as older OOP releases like Evangelion go, if you're not gonna go for the JP BDs or track down your original Platinums, if you wanted to rebuy them just create an eBay saved search and check your email for updates for when you find a good deal on it. Looks like the singles occasionally sell for just a couple of bucks each, and while a full set averages about $100 or higher depending on version and condition, it looks like they occasionally go for $40~60 which is a steal. Even $100 is probably worth it if you're a huge Eva fan (I remember paying like $250 at Media Play for the original ADV set in 1999 or whatever, but that was in the Before Times when I didn't know RightStuf and Deep Discount etc. existed, and long before domestic anime became as affordable as it now is). Still a fraction of what you'd pay for the Japanese BDs, though their BD set sounds rather amazing... Anime smile;; The one time I've been tempted to break my policy, lol.
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John Thacker



Joined: 28 Oct 2013
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 6:56 am Reply with quote
Spoofer wrote:
As others have said, almost no one who cares about video quality would ever want something like this, since the only ways in which to transform something from 4:3 to 16:9 would be to either stretch the picture, or chop off the top and bottom of the picture and then still stretch the resolution (for digital shows). Either way, you're screwing up the original presentation, and the originally-intended look of the show.
...
Thankfully I'm not really aware of any other anime butchering the picture like that, at least on the American side.


There's a decent number of older movies (Urusei Yatsura: Beautiful Dreamer, the Crusher Joe movie) where the original cels were painted and filmed in 4:3 but matted to 16:9 for theatrical release. Some of these have received 4:3 Open Matte releases in addition to the theatrical cut. The Crusher Joe JP release had both aspect ratios. (Weirdly, some of the UY: Beautiful Dreamer releases have been a mix of open matte and pan & scan.) However, in some of those cases the originally-intended look was 16:9, like with Beautiful Dreamer, as the stuff at the top and the bottom of the 4:3 frame was never intended to be shown. In Beautiful Dreamer's case one scene has nudity visible outside the 16:9 frame. The recent BD release only has the 16:9 theatrical aspect ratio.

In other cases it's a bit more ambiguous what was the originally-intended look, as it was created with both looks in mind.
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John Thacker



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:01 am Reply with quote
Disney does some pretty insane "restoration" on their BDs. They apparently rotoscope every frame of character animation, basically re-render it, and end up in some cases destroying original fine detail.
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Spoofer



Joined: 03 Aug 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:14 am Reply with quote
John Thacker wrote:
There's a decent number of older movies (Urusei Yatsura: Beautiful Dreamer, the Crusher Joe movie) where the original cels were painted and filmed in 4:3 but matted to 16:9 for theatrical release. Some of these have received 4:3 Open Matte releases in addition to the theatrical cut. The Crusher Joe JP release had both aspect ratios. (Weirdly, some of the UY: Beautiful Dreamer releases have been a mix of open matte and pan & scan.) However, in some of those cases the originally-intended look was 16:9, like with Beautiful Dreamer, as the stuff at the top and the bottom of the 4:3 frame was never intended to be shown. In Beautiful Dreamer's case one scene has nudity visible outside the 16:9 frame. The recent BD release only has the 16:9 theatrical aspect ratio.

In other cases it's a bit more ambiguous what was the originally-intended look, as it was created with both looks in mind.


Indeed, anything like that is certainly accepted by videophiles, as the originally-intended look was usually always 16:9. The DBZ films are an interesting case, where IIRC the Japanese side usually favored the 16:9 presentation on film and DVD (I think they offered 4:3 on VHS), but Funi's DVDs were always 4:3. For Funi's BD releases, they actually upscaled their SD masters IIRC, then cropped the films on their own as they did DBZ itself. So they inadvertently approximated the intended 16:9 look of the films even though they were just doing their usual DBZ cropping bs. The framing isn't exactly inline with the original Japanese 16:9 look, but I mean DBZ films aren't exactly high art to begin with so I'll personally accept them as close enough, I guess.
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