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ANNCast - FRANXXly my Darling, I Don't Give A Damn


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NeverConvex



Joined: 08 Jun 2013
Posts: 829
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 10:23 am Reply with quote
wolf10 wrote:
Being able to watch something "mindlessly" is a luxury of being part of the target audience. It's not a bad thing, really, since it means your reality aligns enough with what is presented that you don't need to do any extra work to understand it. That is what most writers expect.

People who aren't in the target audience have to put in extra work to reach that kind of understanding, and that involves picking apart why that understanding didn't come naturally to begin with. That tends to shine light on a lot of things that almost certainly weren't placed intentionally, and depending on the writer/writers' level of empathy, it can become kind of a mess. Nobody really wants it, but it's a natural consequence of publishing any work of fiction for the general public.


I think you're mixing up "sufficient relatability to be intellectually or emotionally understandable" and "the purpose of fiction is to find truth in it" here. Digging into a show to try to understand why our reactions to it were different is often a worthwhile thing to do, and doing so is a natural consequence of viewing a show that starts from assumptions very different from those you're accustomed to, but that kind've digging isn't the unique purpose of fiction. Fiction can have many purposes, depending on who you are.

In the rest of your post you moved into a rather different (albeit not entirely unrelated) discussion, re: the show's treatment of Ikuno and LGBTQ issues. My disagreement with you there is that I think FranXX has given Ikuno "a sympathetic story arc that neither undermined his (her) established orientation nor used him (her) as some sort of tragic counterpoint." I think it's still failed her in some significant ways, but not in ways that're specific to her sexual orientation. I've made a lot of posts on why I think that about its treatment of Ikuno already, though; I think in addition to probably boring people I'd also be in danger of "brigading" if I repeated them all over again.
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wolf10



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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 10:37 am Reply with quote
NeverConvex wrote:
I think you're mixing up "sufficient relatability to be intellectually or emotionally understandable" and "the purpose of fiction is to find truth in it" here. Digging into a show to try to understand why our reactions to it were different is often a worthwhile thing to do, and doing so is a natural consequence of viewing a show that starts from assumptions very different from those you're accustomed to, but that kind've digging isn't the unique purpose of fiction. Fiction can have many purposes, depending on who you are.
I wasn't trying to say that it was the unique or sole purpose of fiction, simply "a natural consequence of viewing a show that starts from assumptions very different from those you're accustomed to", as you said, which is precisely what keeps it from having the "sufficient relatability to be intellectually or emotionally understandable" required to enjoy a work of fiction for any of the other reasons people turn to fiction.
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NeverConvex



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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 10:41 am Reply with quote
wolf10 wrote:
I wasn't trying to say that it was the unique or sole purpose of fiction, simply "a natural consequence of viewing a show that starts from assumptions very different from those you're accustomed to", as you said, which is precisely what keeps it from having the "sufficient relatability to be intellectually or emotionally understandable" required to enjoy a work of fiction for any of the other reasons people turn to fiction.


Fair enough. We agree completely then, I think.
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wolf10



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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 10:43 am Reply with quote
NeverConvex wrote:
Fair enough. We agree completely then, I think.

Good! I can shut up now.
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Tirol Choco



Joined: 16 May 2018
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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 11:12 am Reply with quote
zrnzle500 wrote:
Tirol Choco wrote:
Chrono1000 wrote:
I think it is curious that some people are trying to convince other people not to watch the show. Personally I think that Darling in the Franxx is a good show and is the best mecha show I have seen in the last 5 years. Gurren Lagann is still the most entertaining mecha show but it would be incredibly difficult to match the pure exuberance of that show.

When people say stuff like this it just goes to show you don't watch mecha anime. Top it off with the fact that the mevha aspect in Franxx is as much of a let down as is writing hell there jas not been a single mecha battle within the last four episoded so the fact that you think Franxx is a good show let alone the best mecha anime within the last 5 years is an insult.


While I don’t quite agree with Chrono1000’s placement of the series, I don’t think it is that outlandish of an opinion (provided it is limited to new original mecha series) and furthermore, just like the reviewers aren’t insulting people by voicing their criticisms of the show, other people just liking a show and having a high opinion of it isn’t insulting you. Certainly there are badly behaved fans of the series, but the very act of liking a show and/or having a high opinion of it is not an insult.

Of course its outlandish there's been plenty of good mecha series within the past 5 years that I'm sure people who like Franxx have not watched on the basis that its a mecha anime not made by a studio they recognize or a writer (itll be interesting to see how Gridman is perceived since they're working on it but Planet With is guaranteed to be ignored). Off the top of my head these shows are way better than Franxx; Fafner Exodus, Gundam Build Fighters, Majestic Prince, Knights of Sidonia, Shinkalion, Break Blade, Gargantia, Knights and Magic. And even shows that are objectively flawed like G-Reco, Buranki, Kurumukro, LOGOS and Cross Ange (yes even Cross Ange) has merits to them. What does Franxx has that's better than these shows? Nothing. It actually sold less than half of those shows listed and shows deemed objective garbage like Valvrave, Guilty Crown and Aldnoah Zero sold more than it.

Quote:
While I find the comparison to The Last Jedi tenuous, I don’t see why you think Franxx fans aren’t liking the show based on their own perception of the series and are mostly just liking it because they like everything thing Trigger puts out mindlessly.

Because nobody would have cared otherwise if Trigger wasn't involved with it just like NOBODY would have given Aldnoah/Zero the time of them if Urobuchi wasn't involved (that was another show that had people touting it as the best mecha anime in years) also the fact that the fanbase gets on arms for any criticism of the show not so much because they think its good but because their getting attacked for liking it.
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NeverConvex



Joined: 08 Jun 2013
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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 11:20 am Reply with quote
Tirol Choco wrote:
Off the top of my head these shows are way better than Franxx; Fafner Exodus, Gundam Build Fighters, Majestic Prince, Knights of Sidonia, Shinkalion, Break Blade, Gargantia, Knights and Magic.


I don't know most of these, just Sidonia and Gargantia. I thought Sidonia was great, way better than FranXX, although going for an entirely different feeling. I also thought Gargantia was fantastic (and so better than FranXX), but Gargantia's right at the edge of the 5-year threshold (Apr - June 2013; did it really only run for 3 months?).
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zrnzle500
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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 12:34 pm Reply with quote
Tirol Choco wrote:
Of course its outlandish there's been plenty of good mecha series within the past 5 years that I'm sure people who like Franxx have not watched on the basis that its a mecha anime not made by a studio they recognize or a writer (itll be interesting to see how Gridman is perceived since they're working on it but Planet With is guaranteed to be ignored). Off the top of my head these shows are way better than Franxx; Fafner Exodus, Gundam Build Fighters, Majestic Prince, Knights of Sidonia, Shinkalion, Break Blade, Gargantia, Knights and Magic. And even shows that are objectively flawed like G-Reco, Buranki, Kurumukro, LOGOS and Cross Ange (yes even Cross Ange) has merits to them. What does Franxx has that's better than these shows? Nothing. It actually sold less than half of those shows listed and shows deemed objective garbage like Valvrave, Guilty Crown and Aldnoah Zero sold more than it.


Well, I like Franxx and I've seen all of those series besides Shinkalion. I would definitely put some of them above Franxx personally, but I don't think it outlandish for someone to differ with me or you over that. I don't want to get too far afield going into why I find a number of the series you mentioned, as well as stuff like Comet Lucifer, Dai Shogun, and Daimidaler, less good than I think Franxx is, but that could change by the end, especially when comparing it to VVV, Comet Lucifer, or A/Z. I agree that Cross Ange has its own merits (I thought Theron generally did a good job covering the series, both weekly and for the physical releases). I think in terms of visual execution, Franxx is better than many of those series, but I understand that isn't enough to make the series good for many people, not unreasonably. On the point of sales, while Franxx hasn't sold as much as some of the series you mentioned, it has sold better than most anime these days, even some of the other series you mentioned. Knight's & Magic sold half of what Franxx has so far, and that one was fairly successful for a late night anime nowadays.

I think this portion also brings up an issue I have had with some of the criticism of the show (though not from the reviewers or most of the commentors on this site to be clear) that I brought up in the thread for last podcast that in part discussed Franxx. Namely, criticism with the implication that "Well if you just look at the show objectively, you would know its terrible". As I said then, I believe that reviewers and commentors should not be forced to hold to the standard of "objectivity" in their criticism of the series that admittedly too many fans of the show have tried to enforce, though using different terms, but I think that also means that one should likewise not present one's opinion of the show (or any shows, for that matter) as "objective". Again I believe that the reviewers and most of the commentors on this site have not done so, but yours is not the first such opinion that I have come across, and that is the line of criticism of the show that I really take exception to.

Tirol Choco wrote:

Because nobody would have cared otherwise if Trigger wasn't involved with it just like NOBODY would have given Aldnoah/Zero the time of them if Urobuchi wasn't involved (that was another show that had people touting it as the best mecha anime in years) also the fact that the fanbase gets on arms for any criticism of the show not so much because they think its good but because their getting attacked for liking it.


I can't speak for anyone else, but Trigger's involvement was far down the list of what piqued my interest in the series before it aired, as I have discussed elsewhere on the site (I was more interested by the staff involved, of which most of the key staff are not Trigger regulars).

I would like some clarification about you last sentence though. Are you saying that (some) fans of the show are getting up in arms about any criticism because they think they are being attacked for liking it, or because they are being attacked for liking it (not here of course)? If it's the former, then I agree with what many have said that criticizing the show is not attacking one for liking it. If it's the latter, then it's no wonder fans of the show are up in arms, though misguidedly in the case of reviewers here or anyone making similar criticisms. If someone is being attacked for liking a show, they have every right to get mad, provided it is aimed at those criticisms that do so. I also firmly disagree that fans of the show aren't defending it because they think it is good, as one such fan.
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Cardcaptor Takato



Joined: 27 Jan 2018
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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 1:01 pm Reply with quote
Putting aside the political controversies surrounding Darling in the Franxx, I wouldn't say the show is objectively terrible but it's thoroughly mediocre which in many ways is a much more frustrating problem than being "terrible." The plot is pretty straight forward and predictable. The characters are fairly simplistic and one note. Even the fan favorite, Zero Two, only really seems to have one personality trait to her the entire show. The character designs are likewise rather bland and the animation isn't as visually impressive or unique as some of Trigger's previous works like Kill La Kill and Little Witch Academia. The music is also rather forgettable other than the opening theme song but I at least liked the mecha designs pretty well. The first half of the show was the most entertaining when it was focused on the character relationships and the world building instead of all these political themes. The most stand out episodes are the episodes that focused on Zero Two's past which was the most that I enjoyed out of the show. The second cour has been more all over the place especially with regards to the pacing. Some episodes can be exciting and intriguing but then there are episodes where not much happens at all and it's just kind of dull. It just seems like Darling is getting too much attention from all sides of the debate for a show that only really seemed to become popular because it came out during a season where there wasn't a lot of action shows airing and anime fans were still on an emotional high from Devilman Crybaby and who were lured in by the marketing of Trigger's brand name even though they don't really seem to have that much to do with the show itself other than animation. It just seems like the amount of attention Darling has gotten from the overall fandom discourse is disproportionate to how overall average it is when in any other season it seems like it would be treated the same as any other three star rated anime show.
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NeverConvex



Joined: 08 Jun 2013
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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 1:07 pm Reply with quote
I agree with most of that, Cardcaptor, but why do you say that Devilman Crybaby had anime fans on an emotional high? Did it cause a real stir here? I watched it but largely regret the watch, never really got a sense for how other folks reacted.

I think it may also be that there just aren't many shows running around this season with a ton of symbolism to compete with FranXX, and FranXX also hits particular tones on gender, family, and religion that have a tendency to divide the ANN community. It hits those notes just well enough to be felt but doesn't hit them with enough clarity to generate widespread agreement, and so, like the Mistletoe arrow that felled the immortal gods, brings apocalypse to the ANN forums.

(OK, that last part was maybe a bit of a stretch.)
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Sajuukkhar



Joined: 24 Jul 2013
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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 1:09 pm Reply with quote
JacobC wrote:
But that aside, they should absolutely know that this memory erasure can be undone because it happened to the main characters of the show, in quite an uproarious display. Sure, it's because Hiro drank klaxosaur blood, but if I were APE, I would be way more thorough with this shit in the future given such an outlandishly complete resurgence of memories that were supposedly wiped out in these two kids years ago.

Remember that time before the end of episode 19 where Hrio and Zero Two told literally anyone they got their memories back, and that person told APE?

Yeah, that literally never happened until Hiro directly told APE himself at the end of episode 19.

You seem to expect APE to be watching the show themselves, and know things they, or agents of them, weren't there to witness.
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NeverConvex



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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 1:19 pm Reply with quote
Sajuukkhar wrote:
Remember that time before the end of episode 19 where Hrio and Zero Two told literally anyone they got their memories back, and that person told APE?

Yeah, that literally never happened until Hiro directly told APE himself at the end of episode 19.

You seem to expect APE to be watching the show themselves, and know things they, or agents of them, weren't there to witness.


I was kind've wondering about this when reading Jacob's post as well, mostly because I can't really remember: is there a point where 02/Hiro's memory-reviviscence is clearly learned about by APE? They do supposedly keep very careful watch on Mistletin (sp?), but I don't remember any attention being drawn to this revelation.
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Sajuukkhar



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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 1:23 pm Reply with quote
NeverConvex wrote:
I was kind've wondering about this when reading Jacob's post as well, mostly because I can't really remember: is there a point where 02/Hiro's memory-reviviscence is clearly learned about by APE? They do supposedly keep very careful watch on Mistletin (sp?), but I don't remember any attention being drawn to this revelation.

No, there is no point before episode 19 where Hiro says so directly to them that they learn about it.

Hell, its implied APE didn't even know Hiro was the one who had broken out Zero Two in the past due to Dr Franxx keeping that fact hidden.

Also, APE doesn't watch misteltein themselves, Nana and Hatchi do, and then report to APE, but they are working for Dr Franxx, and only report what he tells them too, hence why the whole "everyone is going through puberty at the same time yet APE didn't send them for memory modification" plot happened many episodes back.
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NeverConvex



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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 1:32 pm Reply with quote
Yes, that makes sense. I think there's enough wiggle room in what you've pointed out for the "APE didn't realize the experiment had gone so far!" idea to save FranXX from being condemned for portraying APE as comically incompetent oligarchs.
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JacobC
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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 4:34 pm Reply with quote
Sajuukkhar wrote:
JacobC wrote:
But that aside, they should absolutely know that this memory erasure can be undone because it happened to the main characters of the show, in quite an uproarious display. Sure, it's because Hiro drank klaxosaur blood, but if I were APE, I would be way more thorough with this shit in the future given such an outlandishly complete resurgence of memories that were supposedly wiped out in these two kids years ago.

Remember that time before the end of episode 19 where Hrio and Zero Two told literally anyone they got their memories back, and that person told APE?

Yeah, that literally never happened until Hiro directly told APE himself at the end of episode 19.

You seem to expect APE to be watching the show themselves, and know things they, or agents of them, weren't there to witness.


And yet, they knew that Mitsuru and Kokoro had sex once? Hiro and Zero Two are not remotely secretive about their shared past, even down to recreating her childhood storybook together and strewing it all over the floor. The evidence for their memory resurgence is everywhere. If they're watching these kids at all, which ostensibly they are, APE should know something's up. So I guess they just don't care, which means they are really really really bad at this dystopian oligarchy thing.
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DuskyPredator
It...it's not like I post for you or anything!It...it's not like I post for you or anything!


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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 7:12 pm Reply with quote
JacobC wrote:
And yet, they knew that Mitsuru and Kokoro had sex once?


And this is where I get to ask if you are even watching the show, because to say this you have to be making things up, or just not paying attention. APE only knew what Nine Alpha would have said, that Kokoro had read a maternity book, and was getting a little close to her partner. Not once was it implied in the show that Ape knew they had sex. This is why people are getting angry at some of the criticism, because it is built on just making things up.

JacobC wrote:
Hiro and Zero Two are not remotely secretive about their shared past, even down to recreating her childhood storybook together and strewing it all over the floor. The evidence for their memory resurgence is everywhere. If they're watching these kids at all, which ostensibly they are, APE should know something's up. So I guess they just don't care, which means they are really really really bad at this dystopian oligarchy thing.


But APE are not watching these kids, they have left it to Nana and Hatchi, who are following orders from dr Franxx, it took Nine Alpha to see that things are not how they are supposed to be. If Hiro and Zero Two have been open about their past, can you point to a scene where any character talks about it, that is not them in private? Any scene that could imply anything APE could have seen themselves that would not fit their assessment earlier in the series that would not just fit APE early in the series writing off Zero Two's acting out as her being on a silly journey looking for a man?

APE has not been into Zero Two's room to see that she was making a picture book, it is not even likely they are aware that Zero Two had a picture book that was about love. In fact, Zero Two was actually likely right that her eating it probably saved it, because they might have eventually found out about it and removed the memory.

People seem to keep forgetting that the 13s are a pet project of the man who has helped usher in their path. They have largely put in trust that the 13s will do their jobs as the weapons they are, just like the others the doctor has made. I hate to be the guy to keep saying that, but you would have to not be paying attention to this recent episode to not get this. Or you are just so caught up in hate that you project your own thoughts on the show.
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