Forum - View topicEP. REVIEW: FLCL Progressive
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Valjean
Posts: 22 |
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This. At some point it became "cool" to not give fans what they want. I saw this in a lot of people's reactions to The Last Jedi. Where many upset with the direction Rian Johnson took the characters, others were praising him for "subverting" expectations, as if doing things that would obviously get fans pissed was somehow a wise decision. |
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leafy sea dragon
 Posts: 7163 Location: Another Kingdom |
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All right, fair enough. My apologies. What struck me was the phrase "defense of poor media," under the idea that FLCL Progressive and The Last Jedi are objectively and/or undeniably poor. At least, that is how I interpreted that statement. So far, The Last Jedi is best described as "divisive," and looking at the responses each week right here, so is FLCL Progressive. That means there are a lot of people who dislike the work and a lot of people who like the work. That being said, there ARE a number of works that get unfairly knocked because they're too different from the stuff that came before them. Of course, it goes both ways. TV Tropes has a rather long list for both "They Changed It, Now It Sucks" and It's the Same, Now It Sucks. I think that's the core of the issue here: There are people who want more of the same and there are people who want something completely different, and it's very, very hard to satisfy both sides at once (though not impossible--looks like Pixar did it again with The Incredibles 2).
I personally felt that The Force Awakens played to the beats of A New Hope far too much and was banking too much on the original trilogy characters who returned. While I liked it, when I finished watching it in theaters, I was really hoping they'd go in a different direction, swerve things up, something so it wouldn't be just a rehash of the original trilogy, but I guessed they would. I suppose "subverting my expectations" is a no-no here on this thread, so I will say I was "pleasantly surprised" by The Last Jedi for refusing to follow The Empire Strikes Back (though it did mimic that in some ways, but not to the degree of The Force Awakens, which played things annoyingly safe). I mean, I was as sad as anyone else to see spoiler[Luke Skywalker] go, for instance, but I knew that if he continued to stick around to the end of the movie, he would have long overstayed his welcome. It's a story of a new generation of heroes and villains. The old guard has to step aside. That is, I wasn't planning on watching the Sequel Trilogy to relive the Original Trilogy. If I wanted to do that, I'd watch the Original Trilogy. That Episode 8 deviated from the nostalgia-driven Episode 7 meant the Sequel Trilogy had become its own thing, separating itself from the Original Trilogy, and that's one thing I like about it. |
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Emdykay
 Posts: 85 |
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At this point I have exactly one hope for this show:
That there will be enough material of Hidomis cannibalistic-masochism dreams for an AMV to Bloodbaths Eaten! |
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DreamedLint
Posts: 42 |
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I take exception to this. FLCL Progressive being different isn't the issue. When I cite original FLCL as a reference, I'm typically citing it as having a positive feature lacking from the new series. A positive feature that could apply to any series outside of FLCL, let alone one with the audacity to call itself FLCL 2 lol. The pacing for example, FLCL had lighting fast pacing and never seemed to be wasting its time. This is a quality that a 6 episode series should possess as it has that much less time to tell its story. (I honestly think watching FLCL so young spoiled me on pacing) FLCL had individual set ups and pay offs within each episode. Take Ninamori's whole deal in episode 3, for example. Nearly everything in FLCL Progressive is a set up for some future climax to resolve. I think this is why the pacing feels so slow in Progressive. Sure, it's different, but it's not a good difference. I didn't want FLCL again, heck I didn't want FLCL 2 at all. I can't stress that enough. Making a sequel was a horrible idea. But this is the cross I must bear, and I appreciated them alleviating some of the burden by making it about new characters and not trying to add to Naota's, Mamimi's, or Ninamori's story. Can't say the same for Haruko but even with a fresh start, they can't make the new characters as compelling. Hidomi fits what I was taking about above. We know she has these obsessions with her own death, a kind of sadistic infatuation with Hide, and she's quiet and shuts the world out with headphones. She seems to want to join in the fun, but isn't too keen on actually following through. (Swimsuit under shirt) The show has teased the big reason behind why she behaves this way, and we're still in the dark as to why. It's another set up for a future episode. Ide is really weak. He likes Hidomi, he's an inventor but he's also a complete idiot when it comes to people (that's the only way I can interpret the scene where he hands the dude his gun), he said his heart was frozen or something? basically that he has no feelings (the quote that turned Hidomi on in ep 2), and he really likes Hidomi. (enough to resist Haruko's whiles) It's hard for a stupid character to not just be a blank check for making things the author wants to happen happen, and I suppose it's good Ide hasn't been used that way, but his incompetence in human interactions isn't really used at all. He's just kinda normal outside of that one really stupid scene. He said the thing I forget and am too lazy to look up, but iirc it basically amounted to him having closed himself off from pain and thus emotions kinda. This could have been an act to look tough, because if he really meant it, my man coulda fooled me. Perhaps his happy-go-lucky attitude is a front? To cover up the anguish of being a child labor slave for Mabase's own Lord Humongous? I guess we'll have to tune in next time to find out what that was about. Ide and Hidomi are horny teens and horny teens don't need a ton of reasons to be into each other but as an audience I feel like we could use more motivation to see these characters come together beyond, "he's hot, she's hot, they should boink." Hidomi sees him as a kindred spirit? A durable punishment slave? I can't think of any motivations for Ide's attraction that aren't physical. The issues I'm talking about kinda lead me to believe this isn't an OVA. I know that's actually obvious based on the information about the show leading up to release, but indulge me for a second. The show is built for TV. It's got long term set-ups and pay-offs that expect an audience to tune in every week. But in Japan both "seasons" are screening in movie theaters on two separate nights. It clearly doesn't have the production levels behind it that the original had, so the two 6 episode halves they're calling seasons are really just two parts of a 12 episode tv series with production levels standard for that kind of project from this studio. Why? Do we know enough about the planning for this to even assume which side requested this? Did Adult Swim want a television anime to fit its toonami block or did they ask for an OVA and I.G. didn't find that feasible? Why try and disguise it as two separate shows? I would be slightly less concerned about the show's pacing if I knew they had 12 episodes to slowly tease out these mysterious characters like they've been doing, but we're ditching everyone except Haruko in 3 more weeks for FLCL K-on. (FLKL? Fooly K-on-ly?) (The series is premiering in theaters in Japan but everything after that statement is my speculation, I'm genuinely curious if these answers are known) (Also, no worries about the misunderstanding. You can safely assume that every opinionated statement is just my perspective. I just don't feel like adding imho at the end of every sentence lol) |
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SHD
Posts: 1752 |
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What I'm wondering about is, when did it become natural for fans to expect that a canon will give them what they want (and here we're not touching on how utterly subjective that is) and people thinking they have ownership over a franchise just because they invested time in making up theories about it? What happened to being excited for what twists and turns a new story brings? Why is it suddenly expected of writers to make every story conform to fannish expectations? I'm looking at fans across all sorts of media and I see people going into canons with expectations about story elements, characterization, etc., and throwing loud tantrums and organizing hate campaigns when those expectations are not met, or even are subverted. This is where originality and creativity dies and are replaced by boring and predictable fanservice and mediocrity. And sure, going against expectations does not, in itself, make something great, however when it's done with care and thought, and the end result is infinitely more fun and interesting to me than anything the so-called hardcore fans could have thought up, well... |
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Wyvern
 Posts: 1555 |
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Episode 4 was my favorite so far, because while it was messy, I feel like that messiness is what FLCL does best. The first three episodes felt a bit too married to formula, with the animation just a bit too stiff by Fooly Cooly standards. This one dispenses with all that, and gives every character some fun moments. There's a sense of chaos and of many things happening at once; even quiet expositional scenes intrusive background elements like the singing hippies or Aiko going on another paid date, and this makes the show's world feel both wider and more intimate.
And the last scene might surpass some of the greatest moments of the original: Haruka eating Jinyu is both shocking and makes sense in retrospect, and it fully cements her as this season's antagonist, which feels like a logical progression for her. It took half the series to get there but Progessive feels like it's finally found its groove. |
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DreamedLint
Posts: 42 |
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I couldn't disagree more. This surpasses episode 3 in headache-inducing stupidity. FLCL wasn't really ever messy. As I mentioned in my rambly post above, the original series excelled at tight pacing and individually contained episodic arcs. As for the episode's messy animation, I'm truly all for more fluidity over remaining on-model, but none of the animation is able to sell any weight or impact. The action sequence between Haruko and Jinyuu is super flaccid. The robot just felt tossed in to add more explosions to the fight. It was such an afterthought, like having a robot come out of Ide's head is just a formality at this point. I liked Haruko eating Jinyuu but it acting as the climax to such a dull sequence really hampered much of my enjoyment. Can we talk about the terrible writing? Jinyuu's lines are so stilted and awkward, even Haruko can't escape having awful dialogue. Not because of the voice acting, keep in mind, I think everybody's doing a fine job with this material, but it's a really poor script. "(Haruko) You're an idiot because you do idiotic things.", or "(Jinyuu) I understand everything. I understand him, and even you." "(Haruko) How dare you say that!" "(Jinyuu) I will keep on saying it! You need to join me Raharu, you're me after all!" It's all so blatant and over dramatic. The writing is also suffering from the show's obnoxious need to keep everything close to its chest. (again see ramble #14 above lol) Every line labors to be so cryptic and the dialogue comes out like any actual information is a landmine the characters don't want to set off. It makes the dialogue with the flower pot dude and the old man really annoying. My fears of potential retcons are worsening as Haruko claims she wants Atomsk to "see" her. I'm assuming this refers to some kind of acknowledgement, like what Jinyuu was talking about in the prior episode. This doesn't really line up with, "That power's MINE Takuun!" but I'm only anxiously speculating on this point. Also, tiny side note, why did Haruko's name subtitle list her as 16? Was this just an unreliable narrator thing? Were those not ages? Or are those like 'space years'. Not a gripe, just curious what I was missing there. |
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penguintruth
 Posts: 8461 Location: Penguinopolis |
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My problems with the show are mostly based on the style and lack of subtlety in Haruko.
Yeah, I know, Haruko is not the most subtle character in anime, but her friend-and-enemy routine was more nuanced in the first entry. You got the feeling that, despite her obsession with Atomsk, maybe she did actually have some emotional attachment to Naota, even if she was mostly just using him. Here, her villainy is transparent. No more soulful moments of whimsy, just an out-and-out mischievous demon. spoiler[Maybe that more genuine part of her was separated when she and Jinyuu split apart.] But I am still interested in this continuing pursuit of Atomsk and seeing where Hidomi's death/pain fetish is heading. |
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omnistry
 Posts: 1015 |
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FYI the “new” pillows song mentioned isn’t new at all. THE THIRD EYE is from their 2006 album MY FOOT.
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we love lain
Posts: 145 |
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I've been onboard with a good amount of your complaints as some of them are gripes that i share but this one about this week's animation is a no-no for me (this feels like less a case of "you have a legitimate point" and more of "did we watch the same sequence"). How exactly does the animation sell none of the weight or impact of the action sequence? Please tell me because otherwise I am about to drop a diatribe about just how wrong you are on that one my friend. If you feel like the action sequence was super flacid because you're just not invested in what's happening narratively, I can level with you on that one; but to say that the sequence and the animation on display was lacking in weight and impact??? I just don't know man. Not to mention that your whole complaint about the robot feeling like it was just placed there to have extra explosions feels like a complete non-issue. Why did the robot's involvement in the action feel contrived to you? What exactly does it take away from the scene? Your complaint almost makes it sound like the episode hadn't been building up to an action scene, or that medical mechanica robots have never served any other purpose than being cool action pieces to cap off whatever drama or tension has been building throughout the episode. Last edited by we love lain on Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:50 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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we love lain
Posts: 145 |
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See; but that wouldn't have worked a second-time. We as the audience already know that Haruko is out for her own selfish-gain so it's not an inherently bad thing to make her villainly more transparent unless something occurs within the sequel to justify showing her more compassionate side. What these sequels need to do is figure out how to use Haruko's mischievousness to interact and propel the protagonists to change in interesting ways. don't get me wrong; i don't think Haruko's implementation in this series is as strong as the original, but ill be getting into that in another post real soon as to what i feel is the problem with Haruko's portrayal in progressive Last edited by we love lain on Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:01 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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DreamedLint
Posts: 42 |
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I fully admit to not being well versed in the language of animation, but I'm going to try and explain why I found it flaccid as best I can, so bear with me. I would describe most of this episode's animation as loose. Characters frequently went off model and limbs bent like noodles and stretched to accentuate motion. That's a perfectly fine stylistic choice on paper, however, I take umbridge with people describing this sequence as "epic" or "rivaling the original" (Not quoting specific people but I've heard epic tossed around plenty and I'm paraphrasing with the other one) because this loose style of animation (in my eyes at least) didn't lend itself to the kind of impactful action that would get me excited for a fight. Even keeping the colors all pastelly made the tone feel way less serious on a visual level. Part of the lack of impact comes with the sound design as well. Again, The Pillows song (Third Eye, right?) was relegated entirely to the background and didn't have any stand out moments to punctuate the visuals like the original would tend to do. Haruko's guitar clang faintly reminded me of Berserk 2016's clang too, the other sound effects weren't very strong either. I think you are right that a significant portion of my complaints with the action sequence rely on how little narrative impact it had. There weren't really any stakes for this fight that I cared about. Jinyuu's life? She's honestly kind of a non-character, I was getting about as tired of her grating dialogue as Haruko was. And beyond her cool design, there's not much to her to get invested in. She kinda shoots my ability to care about her in the foot with her insistence that she's just a part of Haruko. In the end she's gonna unite with Haruko somehow and then she's just Haruko and not Jinyuu. My gripe with the robot is that the fight had nothing to do with it, but it showed up anyway and Haruko and Jinyuu just kinda fought it too but also each other. It made the fight more convoluted and confusing to me, that's what it took away. Yes, robots were mostly vehicles for action sequences even in the og, but it never felt like they mattered so little. Previous progressive episodes kinda did this, but this one felt the most contrived. |
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dave-tx
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What struck me immediately, although possibly completely wrong, was that this episode was a big reveal that Progressive is actually a prequel, not a sequel. Haruko’s age being the main clue. I don’t know (or don’t remember) the name of the character, but is Aiko’s brother actually a young Commander Amarao? Canti’s “remains” could be a red herring.
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we love lain
Posts: 145 |
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@DreamedLint
ok but why did the loose animation fail to convey that impact for you? you gotta give me something to go off of besides buzzwords so i can really see where your gripe is coming from. Other than that; completely agree with you on some of the sound mixng/design. For one, I'm so annoyed with how faint and muffled the pillows music has been these past 3 eps when this wasn't a problem in ep 1. The premiere had the insert music volume just right; and even if i wasn't too keen about how one of 2 scenes would use background instrumental tracks, it at least felt like the episode had a fairly decent to good handle on the music integration...and then for some reason things got worse as episodes went on (i hope this gets fixed when the series airs in theaters in Japan). I also HAAATE, the sound the guitars make when they clang against something. The original had this very powerful and reverberate twang; a powerful bass guitar strum to accompany a smashing blow or a distinct metallic bang with regular contact. But in progressive, it sounds like a mix of someone obnoxiously dropping the mic and unwanted static coming from an amplifier; how is that emblematic of powerful and colossally impactful strike? Ughhh...but yea anyway...you gotta give me more to work with on the animation front. |
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we love lain
Posts: 145 |
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Nah...can't be prequel; For one, we clearly see the crater that formed around MM is the same one from the original |
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