Forum - View topicThis Week in Anime - What the Hell is Happening in Darling in the FRANXX?
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NeverConvex
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From the first line of my reply to you on page 2: "How in the world did you get that impression? I don't agree with their read of the Ichigo-Ikuno scene, but the reviewers have been pretty clear that their complaint isn't about Ichigo not falling for Ikuno..." (with elaboration following) I've no interest in making this personal, so I'm not going to into what you said about your past, but my opinion on the quality of the torture-forgiveness scene isn't going to change without a compelling argument for why 02 forgiving Frank at the drop of a hat is anything other than sloppy, tone-deaf, and absurd. There was zero exploration of 02's feelings there; I mean, for fudge's sake, she friggin' said to him "I was able to find love, so it's totally cool that you imprisoned & burnt holes in me repeatedly when I was young and helpless!" You cannot seriously tell me that is the kind of gravitas and depth of emotion that you feel should have been involved in a scene where she finds it in herself to forgive Frank. I don't see how bringing up the minor bit of development Futoshi got when I've already acknowledged it is supposed to read as a better argument the second time around, but OK. |
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DigitalScratch
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I personally saw Futoshi not being able to eat that one episode as more of a result of how anxious their situation was and/or their “Parasite bodies” reaching their limits, not because of an eating disorder. During that same episode, the other parasites were also going through physical problems like high fevers and Miku’s hair greying. In his case, Futoshi wasn't forcefully inducing vomiting or binge-eating, he just couldn’t hold down food. Once he was assured that everyone else was just as nervous as he was, he finally relaxed and went back to being hungry again. At least that’s how I remembered it was explained.
I’m not a fan of the show’s writing, but I don’t find it offensive or gross either. It’s mindless fun with nice animation that sadly falls flat when it tries to be too serious. So I do agree with some criticisms presented here, even though I am also in the camp who is kind of sick of seeing the same interpretation of Franxx’s presentation of gender issues as though it’s harmful. The show does bring it up as a theme and so it warrants discussion, but I absolutely don’t agree with how the reviewers in ANN see it. But that’s a huge can of worms that I would love to stay out of. I just feel like Franxx was just overly ambitious and tried to tackle too many issues in its short run. It’s attempts to present metaphors for marriage, sexuality, love, and what it all means for humans got muddled up by its subpar character writing and pacing. So the absurd plot twists, aliens, and whatever so called politics the anime presents don’t bother me at all- it’s the character writing that kills it for me. I just couldn’t see any chemistry between Hiro and 02. Which is a BIG problem because the biggest parts of the story is dependent on the viewer believing these two are in love. So I agree that they’re very boring together, as the anime expects us to root for their relationship because the narrative tells us too. “Why are they in love?” “Because he licked her blood when they were kids, and now they’re engaged” ” “...Okay?” The episode that detailed their pasts with each other was great, but that wasn’t enough for me to believe the two of them are meant for each other. There’s no real chemistry and not enough time was spent just showing them just getting along. So every attempt after that where the anime was trying to hammer in how “in love” they were just annoyed me. If you’re going to provide a romance, make sure your two leads actually feel like they have a relationship instead of hammering it over my head! |
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Mojave
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I think I see why there's such a disconnect between a large number of users and ANN on this issue. All of the reviewers you mentioned have consistently expressed views from the same very narrow range of the political spectrum in their articles on this site, not just for this show but for others. That's not a pretty wide swath of critics, all of them consistently insert political opinions from fairly far to the left. So you mistook multiple opinions from the same narrow part of the political spectrum as being representative of a wide swath of critics when it's actually a very narrow swath. If the repeated criticism wasn't political in nature, that wouldn't be a problem, but since it has been, that's a huge issue. The problem with much of the repeated criticism is that part of it is fairly objective and uses critical analysis (such as the discussion about development of side characters, narrative consistency, tonal whiplash, etc), but the other part that is mostly subjective consistently comes from a very specific, narrow part of the political spectrum (criticisms of heteronormativity, the show's focus on reproduction, etc.). So the fact that all of the writers are bringing up the same subjective political criticisms gets away from critical analysis and starts to veer into territory uncomfortably close to propaganda and demands for ideological purity. |
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Sentinel_Wraith
Posts: 23 |
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1. I have no posts on page 2. 2. He had just admitted that he went out of his way to try and make something right in her life by intentionally bringing her back to Hiro. He felt guilty for what he did to them and even admits he has no right to be forgiven. 002 then simply thanks her creator for making her and for bringing her back to her Darling. He then pays for his crimes with a brutal death while he's bleeding out. She never states that she forgives him. She simply thanked him for trying to make something right. 3. You keep insisting that his transformation from a selfish to selfless character is "minor" development. It isn't. Last edited by Sentinel_Wraith on Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:13 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Ashabel
 Posts: 350 |
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The problem isn't the extent of Futoshi's growth, but how he is portrayed by the show. While you're right that Futoshi technically undergoes a lot of growth based on how he behaves in the beginning and the end of the show, the problem is that the show's consistent lack of interest in actually portraying him as a person interferes with the audience's perception for him. Futoshi undergoes a lot of development but unlike many other characters, he never gets a focus episode. In fact, he never even gets a scene of his own; all moments that develop him as a person occur as a part of scenes that involve the entire Squad. Basically the problem isn't with how much Futoshi grows (or doesn't grow) as a person, the problem is that the writers of the show treat him like such a footnote that any development he undergoes doesn't really matter as far as the show's themes are concerned. It's just there as part of a checklist of Things To Happen Before This Show Is Over and therefore leaves very little lasting impact. |
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NeverConvex
Subscriber Posts: 2292 |
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1. Ah, page 3. Bit silly that I'm having to find it for you, heh. 2. I think this is a technicality that doesn't redeem the scene. She has her final shot to let her feelings about him out in response to his long monologue about 'not deserving atonement' and 'not deserving her forgiveness', and instead she cheerfully thanks him. No exploration whatsoever of how her past with him makes her feel, no acknowledgement whatsoever of whether she feels he deserves redemption, just enthusiastic focus on the one incidental good he's done for her. Incredibly cavalier papering over of what should be an emotionally central issue for her. 3. I don't think Futoshi was ever portrayed as selfish or selfless. He was portrayed as emotionally dependent on & possessive of a girl he had a crush on and with whom he thought there was some kind of special connection because of their piloting relationship. The extent of his growth was accepting that he didn't actually have a deep relationship with her, that she was in love with someone else, and that he should stop trying to make something work with her that clearly wasn't going anywhere. I don't think that character turn is negligible, but I don't think it's particularly dramatic, either; as an arc it primarily focuses on what's wrong with Futoshi in his shallow relationships with other people, and how he comes to stop having that thing wrong with him while still having the same shallow relationships with other people, and then going on to pilot Ikuno and be conveniently forgotten alongside her. I don't think that's nearly powerful enough a bit of character development to claim that it should overshadow how the show treated him as a walking joke throughout the vast majority of its run-time. |
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JacobC
ANN Contributor
 Posts: 3728 Location: SoCal |
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Literally all of these things fall under complete subjectivity, all of them. And all of it falls under critical analysis. Feminist theory, auteur theory, queer theory, marxist theory, and so forth are huge pillars of media criticism both academic and popular. I'm gonna have to suggest you git gud at media literacy on this one. The qualities you list as "objective" are just qualities you happen to agree with the writer on or have personally decided it's "okay" for them to talk about, and that's your problem, not theirs. |
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Mojave
Posts: 178 |
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That's completely untrue. The basis of critical analysis is objective. Analysis of pacing, tone, etc. Does the work do a certain thing or not? Does it develop its side characters, or does it mention something about them once and never revisit or build on that? Determining how much its success or failure at doing so affects the work includes subjectivity, but the core of it is objective. Feminist theory, Marxist theory, etc. are not critical analysis, they are schools of thought and critique. They aren't inherently valid for anyone who doesn't subscribe to that school of thought. That's subjective. Your inappropriate dig at me needing to "git gud" at media literacy is actually pretty blatantly a violation of the forum etiquette and also false, as I have both academic and professional experience with critical analysis and its applications in media. The problem is ANN's, not mine, as applying subjective schools of thought such as feminist theory is only appropriate in spaces dedicated to it, such as Anime Feminist. It's not a part of baseline critical analysis, which is what a site that claims to be an impartial provider of anime news and analysis requires. |
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kotomikun
Posts: 1205 |
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They are not claiming that. This article is an opinion piece, consisting of opinions. You can tell because it says "Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed by the participants in this chatlog are not the views of Anime News Network," right at the top of the page. More to the point, it's virtually impossible to critique art "impartially" because, as Ashabel said, all art is political; you'd have to limit yourself to actually objective things like listing what the characters did with no commentary and naming the colors of their anime-hair and, I mean, why would anyone want to read that instead of just watching the show? It wouldn't add anything to the discussion. If you're going to say anything remotely interesting, or describe how you felt about something, it's going to be subjective. But "objectivity" and "lacking political leanings you disagree with" are often conflated with each other. It's also deeply ironic that certain people in this thread are calling for the ANN writers to somehow not be politically biased, while openly attacking their political opinions. This whole thing is looking an awful lot like "it's about ethics in gaming journalism." |
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Tirol Choco
Posts: 73 |
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Do the people who claim the ANN staff is slamming Franxx for its heteronormative agenda do realize that one of the most critically acclaimed shows from last year was Tsuki ga Kirei while one of the most panned was Super Lovers 2 and even now Cutie Honey Universe is currently the most poorly received show of the season despite having a homosexual romance on the forefront. Much like last year's Rage of the Bahamut Virgin Soul the the poor romance will stick out even if its hetero.
The top review for it on the MAL page gave it a 1 out of 10 the second review gave it a 5 and given the huge gap of users who consider those reviews helpful between those two and the third which gave it a 9. Just because the fanbase want to inflate reviews by spamming 10s doesn't negate the fact that it's current reception is anything but positive it sure doesn't help your case that the current top trending Franxx video on YouTube is one that is saying how bad its worldbuildind is and where it fell apart. Also I think people are vastly confused with the Last Jedi comparisons, TLJ was critically acclaimed Franxx is not audience reception for both have been divisive verging on negative, this is a case more similar to DCEU movies thsn the TLJ one of which that comes to mind was Man of Steel where audiences could never see eye to eye with critics similar to Franxx. |
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Scherzo
 Posts: 149 |
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There is no ontologically objective way of viewing art though. All metrics for examining art are themselves socially constructed. That's the whole point of people criticizing the 'why aren't the reviewers apolitical?' posts; no one has a privileged framework for examining something that is more correct than any other framework. Refusing to consider the political ramifications of a work is a political decision in itself, and it's pretty disingenuous to claim otherwise. |
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CrowLia
 Posts: 5504 Location: Mexico |
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The issue with this is that, if the show is trying to promote reproduction, it is doing so by highlighting the bravery of a woman defying the system in her desire to have children, and presenting a fictitious anti-reproduction dystopia as the thing that is impeding her wish. But Japan's declining birhtrate is very tightly linked to a lot of problems, outstandingly the fact that work culture is terribly discriminatory of women and specially mothers, forcing women to choose between having a successful career or having children, and with the economy getting tighter -even ignoring the self-realization aspect of pursuing a professional career- more and more women are choosing work over marriage and children. There are, of course, many other factors into play, but certainly none of them is an evil opression of heterosexuality and reproduction, so the show is failing on all accounts because the scenario presented has no connection whatsoever with the reality behind Japan's actual birthrate crisis |
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Mad_Scientist
 SubscriberModerator  Posts: 3011 |
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I think you are misunderstanding something. ANN is not a hivemind, as Jake pointed out, and it DOES have a fairly diverse set of opinions about a lot of shows. But politically, a lot of them DO tend to skew left, that is true, so if a show is promoting (or seems to be promoting) far right politics, they probably will take issue with it. Assuming they agree that the show is promoting such a view (they may not). But if they do agree, yes, they will all take issue. And that's a good thing. I'm a lesbian trans woman.I don't want to read articles from someone who believes I'm a perverted male predatory freak who should be morally mandated out of existence. Someone who also, if they were ever to accept that I'm a woman somehow, would then believe that I should be banned from marrying anyone I love, and that any love between me and a woman would be a perverse disgusting abomination. In one of the Franxx threads, there was a poster who essentially AGREED with the reviewer's political reading of the show, but considered it a good thing. And they pointed out how "even a delusional tyrant like Papa" can tell that "gay marriage is a nonsensical pantomime of the real thing", or something to that effect. It was annoying enough to read that in the thread, it would have been exceptionally annoying if it had instead been in a review, if the official, paid ANN reviewer had been all "I'm so happy this show knows gay people are abominations, it earns good marks from me for that!" And you're right, that doesn't happen here. ANN doesn't have people who hold those views, or if it does, those people are hiding their views and not letting it come out in any articles they write. And considering that the executive editor is a bisexual man married to a gay trans man, said gay trans man being someone who also works here and is the person you're replying to, I don't expect that to change. Like seriously, how can you tell a gay trans man "there should be more people who are on the political right working here", knowing what the "right" believes about his basic humanity (or lack there of in their case)? Last edited by Mad_Scientist on Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:30 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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SailorTralfamadore
 Posts: 499 Location: Keep Austin Weeb |
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None of this stuff is "objective." Objective by definition means there's no room for disagreement, and subjective means there is. People can disagree widely on all the stuff you mentioned. In fact, I've disagreed with people on all of those topics when it comes to other works. The only way you can really be "objective" about a piece of media is if it's just a plot summary and list of characters, and then that's not a review. |
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Mojave
Posts: 178 |
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There are frameworks for examining something that are more correct than other frameworks in examining art. While no way is fully objective, there is a world of difference between frameworks based on objectivity and those based on subjectivity. Analysis of character development isn't a social construct. Whether or not a work develops its side characters has a base of objectivity. Regardless of your culture, religion, political beliefs, worldview, etc., determining whether or not a work develops its side characters remains fairly consistent. Determining whether the degree to which it did so contributes or detracts from the works is somewhat subjective, but the core of it overall is objective. Analysis of whether or not a work is successful according to Fascist theory has a core of subjectivity, on the other hand. Fascist theory is a social construct, and your degree of adherence or opposition to it will drastically change how you carry out the analysis. Thus, a framework based around an objective core is inherently more correct than one based around a subjective core, as it can be applied universally and is not fundamentally dependent upon the extraneous factors surrounding each personal reviewer. As far as the refusal to consider the political ramifications of a work being a political decision in and of itself, that's only to true if you are analyzing it from multiple, opposing political viewpoints. Choosing to look at the politics of a show only through the lens of one specific political ideology without giving equal weight to its counterpoints in the opposing political ideology or even multiple other political ideologies between it and its opposite is what is being decried here. While I personally cannot speak for the intentions of the others who call for apolitical reviews, I personally call for them in the sense that a review should either measure the show according to multiple opposing political ideologies or minimize the extent to which any value judgments are made in the review according to a specific political ideology. The fact that all of its reviewers have consistently made those value judgments on the show from the same narrow political ideology is what has caused ANN to receive so much criticism. You'll notice, I have never attacked the reviews on the merits of the reviewer's personal political ideology and insisted that theirs is bad and a different one is good (some commenters have, I have not, and I consider those criticisms to be just as problematic and antithetical to critical analysis as the ANN reviewers making value judgments and measuring a show according to one specific political ideology.) I am merely staunchly against the constant insertion of one political ideology as a guiding metric for reviewing and analyzing DiTF while refusing to consider other viewpoints and assigning supreme value in judging the show to the reviewers' personal political ideology. |
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