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EP. REVIEW: Run with the Wind


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meiam



Joined: 23 Jun 2013
Posts: 3024
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:40 pm Reply with quote
MiloTheFirst wrote:
Bro, you are the one that is not understanding meiam criticism. He is not taking issue with the message of the show, he takes issue with the show wanting to have its cake and eat it. Is the message that you don't have to be great at something to find meaning in it? That's fine, but then why does the show had to go out of is way to also make all these guys incredibly good at what they are doing against all odds? It is like making the message of a movie that it isnt about how pretty people are but about what is inside while making all the characters super models. It doesn't matter if they end up dead last is this race they are already in the country's top 1 percent by even qualifying against all odds. And this issue is not only about his much the team keeps winning is about the incongruity of the storytelling. Haji keeps telling them that he is trying to find the meaning of running and the shows keeps pushing the narrative that one most find the meaning of effort inside one self, yet haiji keeps signing them up on standardized institutionalised competitions, the show says it is about wanting to do something for yourself and your friends yet all the challenges are competitions were the goal is placing in a podium. The criticism we make is not in the message but in the thematically inconsistencies


This essentially. I think if the show wanted to be tonally consistent the ending should have been them trying to qualify, falling miserably and then Haiji would just go "hey let's run back home" and everyone would have gone "Yeah, that sounds great!" and they would all have run happily (throw in a reference to the time Kakeru team was forced to run back after doing poorly at the competition but he was exempt, but now he's running with all his friend).

If the show really wanted to dig in deeply about the theme of "finding a reason to run" then it could have used it's large cast of character to explore different reason to run and go along the way of "the reason doesn't matter so long as it's important to you". So Kakeru would go all out on competition because to him running means breaking record. Maybe King would run and one day he'd spot some guy with a fancy rollex and chat up to him and use it as an excuse to chat up and make connection to find a job/advance his career. Maybe the twin would find that they're way more popular with a runner body and can meet lots of girl that way. Nico does it because he just like it. Musa use it to get a better scholarship. Yuki bond with his family somehow. It could use Haiji to talk about the danger of practicing high level sports and getting injured (instead of using him for cheap cliffhanger). And so on and so forth.

None of that require them to compete in a high level competition (and it could still talk about high level competition with Kakeru focused episode) and it would easily have all the time to do that if it just dropped the marathon plot altogether and just be about different character running for w/e they want. Everything that's good about the show(directing, dialogue, visual) doesn't require the marathon at all, all them competing in the marathon does is break verisimilitude. Look at something like K-on, would that show have been better if the girl had signed a record label and gone on a national tour drawing thousands of fan? Would people not watch this show if they were all slow? It honestly seems like the show thinks that's the case, and that really show how little it believe in it's own message; if running without being competitive is fun by itself, why does the show feel like it has to force it's character to be professional level for people to watch it?
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yuna49



Joined: 27 Aug 2008
Posts: 3457
PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:26 am Reply with quote
If I wanted realism, I wouldn't be watching anime. Like Merida, I'm watching this show for the emotional material. Kansei qualifying was implausible but obviously a requirement for the story to advance. All the time Shindo was struggling I kept thinking back to Haiji's decision not to add any new runners. Having reserves would have made it easier to cope with Shindo's illness.

His story was the weakest so far, with the biggest dose of melodrama. Otherwise I've quite enjoyed the individual vignettes.
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CrowLia



Joined: 24 Feb 2012
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Location: Mexico
PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2019 4:11 am Reply with quote
meiam wrote:


This essentially. I think if the show wanted to be tonally consistent the ending should have been them trying to qualify, falling miserably and then Haiji would just go "hey let's run back home" and everyone would have gone "Yeah, that sounds great!" and they would all have run happily (throw in a reference to the time Kakeru team was forced to run back after doing poorly at the competition but he was exempt, but now he's running with all his friend).



Wow, your proposed "better" ending is horribly cliché and boring, I've watched 20 billion sports Hollywood movies -not even anime- with similar endings. Not to mention we would've gotten at least 10 episodes less of content, missed on all the individual vignettes we're getting during the actual marathon and their growth as a team, which have been the strongest parts of the show. Maybe you should watch the real Hakone Ekiden if you want to see only the schools with realisitic possibilities competing?

Not to mention that the message isn't "just do what you love even if you don't win" -I don't know why you insist it is-, most of these guys don't particularly like running and many of them have expressed it, it's about what they find out about themselves along the journey. Early on, Haiji challenges Kakeru about whether only the fast ones have the right to run and Kakeru counters asking what is the meaning of running. Later on, after the qualifier, the twins ask Haiji why are they even running if they stand no chance to win. In both occassions Haiji says he's still looking for the answer. That's the thematic thread of the story, and ending it without a resolution -without the team finding something new about themselves through running- then the whole story would be pointless.


Quote:
They were 10 at some point (I think just before Shindo) and that was after most of there poorer runner ran


This is factually incorrect. Their strongest runners are Kakeru, Haiji, the twins, Yuki and Musa. Of the four that had run before Shindo, three were amongst those top runners.
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MF65



Joined: 14 Dec 2017
Posts: 58
PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2019 4:38 am Reply with quote
MiloTheFirst wrote:
stuff

Sis, please Wink Also, "bro", you're projecting. That's your own gripe with the show, and you've been doing a good job of explaining it. I may not agree with what you say, but I can respect it. Meiam, on the other hand, has been consistently picking on little things, straight up making up lies to fit their narrative and then changing said narrative once someone disproves them. Just like they did after your reply.
Either way, it does look like both of you wanted to watch a completely different anime from the very beginning and, 21 episodes in, are still getting disappointed the show isn't what you wanted it to be. I can't understand why you would follow something that brings you so little joy or do it to look for stuff you can twist to make it look like a worse show than it actually is for 21 (25, if we count with the month long break) weeks of your life. That's none of my business, of course, but it does make me curious.
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Gina Szanboti



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 9643
PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2019 7:24 am Reply with quote
MiloTheFirst wrote:
Haji keeps telling them that he is trying to find the meaning of running and the shows keeps pushing the narrative that one most find the meaning of effort inside one self, yet haiji keeps signing them up on standardized institutionalised competitions, the show says it is about wanting to do something for yourself and your friends yet all the challenges are competitions were the goal is placing in a podium. The criticism we make is not in the message but in the thematically inconsistencies

Why do you see these things as mutually exclusive? You can take up a sport for the love of doing it, while still wanting to see how your efforts stack up against others doing the same sport, and even feeling -gasp- competitive about it. The series seems to take the view that the podium is a motivating goal, but it's not the only thing that matters. That's not inconsistent.

The series isn't over yet, so I can't say definitively yet, but it looks to me like, aside from illustrating the mindset of competitive athletes, the overall message is that if you have a goal or destination in mind, you may learn something new about both yourself and the goal along the journey. Maybe also the idea that without a goal, you probably won't start out on that journey to get there. And of course, that friendship rules. Wink
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meiam



Joined: 23 Jun 2013
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:57 am Reply with quote
CrowLia wrote:

Quote:
They were 10 at some point (I think just before Shindo) and that was after most of there poorer runner ran


This is factually incorrect. Their strongest runners are Kakeru, Haiji, the twins, Yuki and Musa. Of the four that had run before Shindo, three were amongst those top runners.


Not going to go over the rest cause it's going in circle (dunno when I made up lies, but when conversation goes there it obviously finish) but if you ranked the runner you'd get.

Kakeru >>>>>>> Haiji >>>>>> Yuki >>>>> Musa >>> Twins. Obviously if you list 6/10 runner some will run before Shindo, but you ranked them all like they were equal yet they're obviously not even close to that. The only "strong" runner that ran before Shindo were the slowest of the bunch. I really do think at this point the show will make them finish within the top 5.
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MF65



Joined: 14 Dec 2017
Posts: 58
PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:39 am Reply with quote
meiam wrote:

Not going to go over the rest cause it's going in circle (dunno when I made up lies, but when conversation goes there it obviously finish) but if you ranked the runner you'd get.

Kakeru >>>>>>> Haiji >>>>>> Yuki >>>>> Musa >>> Twins. Obviously if you list 6/10 runner some will run before Shindo, but you ranked them all like they were equal yet they're obviously not even close to that. The only "strong" runner that ran before Shindo were the slowest of the bunch. I really do think at this point the show will make them finish within the top 5.

And here you go again. Conveniently distorting things to make your point. I went ahead and looked it up for you. These are their best times right before the qualifiers started
https://i.imgur.com/9gCYqmZ.jpg
That's Kakeru (14:32), Joji (16:20), Jota (16:21), Shindo (17:02), Musa (16:29), Yuki (16:51), Nico-chan (17:46) and King (17:55). Prince's time is cut on that screenshot, but it's 28:43. Granted, this was 10 episodes ago, and their times have obviously improved. But I honestly don't remember this being shown again, so we can only infer their ranking is still the same. So, what CrowLia said is correct. You had 3 of the top 5 members running in the first leg.

Also, even if you ignore the gigantic elephant in the room, I.e. Haiji's leg, to even insinuate that a team that's currently in the 16th position with only 3 members left to run will magically go up 11 places is just ridiculous. I know you like to blast the show for its "lack of realism" but I didn't think you would reach that far...
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whiskeyii



Joined: 29 May 2013
Posts: 1960
PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2019 6:34 pm Reply with quote
This may be a weird thing to point out, but I appreciated Haiji telling Prince that "the height of arrogance is to think hard work alone can get you to the top". It's kind of the antithesis of what we see in a lot of sports/shonen anime, that hard work can overcome anything. It's refreshing to see an acknowledgment that sometimes natural talent plays a pretty big factor, too. (Not that "naturals" don't have to work hard either.)
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meiam



Joined: 23 Jun 2013
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:31 pm Reply with quote
MF65 wrote:
And here you go again. Conveniently distorting things to make your point. I went ahead and looked it up for you. These are their best times right before the qualifiers started
https://i.imgur.com/9gCYqmZ.jpg
That's Kakeru (14:32), Joji (16:20), Jota (16:21), Shindo (17:02), Musa (16:29), Yuki (16:51), Nico-chan (17:46) and King (17:55). Prince's time is cut on that screenshot, but it's 28:43. Granted, this was 10 episodes ago, and their times have obviously improved. But I honestly don't remember this being shown again, so we can only infer their ranking is still the same. So, what CrowLia said is correct. You had 3 of the top 5 members running in the first leg.

Also, even if you ignore the gigantic elephant in the room, I.e. Haiji's leg, to even insinuate that a team that's currently in the 16th position with only 3 members left to run will magically go up 11 places is just ridiculous. I know you like to blast the show for its "lack of realism" but I didn't think you would reach that far...


Well that hasn't aged very well, the team that was in 16th position just magically went up 8 place with there strongest one and an half member left (Kakeru said he was 10th and later on he caught up to two more runners). Now I do agree 100% that it's ridiculous (triply more so if you consider that one of there member was so sick he had to stop running at a point and there first runner literally finished his section last), but I don't see why that's a critique of me and not the show...

I will give you, it's very possible that the twist will be that Haiji leg will give and he'll limp to the end in last place, that's actually a very good guess and I'd go so far as saying at this point I think it'll happen (at least it'll justify all the cliffhanger they pulled off with it). But that doesn't change my point at all, they're doing ridiculously well, way way way above what they should do considering 7/10 of the runner had no real running experience to say so a year ago and one of there member with experience hadn't run in at least 4 years.

As for the time, I can't read japansse so I can't read what the board says (worth noting this is for a very different distance, obviously no one run a half marathon in 15 minutes). I was guessing there time based on what happen in the show lately (i.e. the whole "show don't tell"). Yuki finished his section 02 seconds behind the first runner, something which no one else came close to doing (at least the show make no indication of that), so that's why I placed him 3rd. The Musa/twin doesn't really matter since they were all in the 1st section, the main reason I placed him above the twin is because Kakeru called him there "ace" when he introduced him to the other African runner (it's a bit weird to call your 5th fastest runner your ace, but w/e).

But if we go back to the time themselves, if you look at the difference between Kakeru time and Joji (1:48), and compare it to the difference between Joji and 5th place, Musa (9 sec), you quickly see that it doesn't matters that most of there top 5 runner ran the first section, compared to Kakeru (and Haiji, although less so) everyone is a "poorer runner". This portion of the discussion started because someone said the team time wasn't unrealistic:

Quote:
they're not even in the top 10 out of 20 schools!


which I said that this was only because they front loaded there poorer runner (specifically Prince) and that Shindo ran sick. In fact if you take the time you provided and add up Kakeru and the 3 other runner in his section and compare it to the 4 runner of the first day (ignoring prince for the moment), you get 67:04 for 2nd day team and 66:12 for first day team (at least I think so, adding time is a pain in the ass), so day 1 is 52 second faster, but wait, the two member missing are Haiji (day 2) and Prince (day 1). I don't think I have to explain why it's obvious that day 2 was going to be faster than day 1. So I just don't see how I distorted anything to made my point. And now the show made my point for me, they are now above 10th positions, and if Shindo hadn't fell sick they would most likely be #1 or 2 now (I can't find what position they were when Shindo got the sash, but they were around 10th place already then). I do quite like the irony of being criticized for distorting fact when I'm criticizing the show for distorting reality.
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Oggers



Joined: 29 Nov 2017
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Location: Ontario, Canada
PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:50 pm Reply with quote
I found King's issue of not being able to fit in because he can't truly express who he is painfully relatable. It's great that we're still discovering new sides to these characters even when it's this late in the show. I can't believe we're almost at the end already...
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CrowLia



Joined: 24 Feb 2012
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Location: Mexico
PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2019 1:26 am Reply with quote
meiam wrote:
I'm criticizing the show for distorting reality.


You know, meiam, there are a few types of televised entertainment that don't distort reality. Like a documentary. Or a real transmission of real life sports! Look those up, maybe you can watch something like that instead of complaining week after week about why a work of fiction isn't a perfect depiction of reality. I haven't watched the episode so I can't comment on anything else yet, other than your statement that they frontloaded their "poorest runners" is still incorrect, no matter how much you move the goalposts. Even if the twins and Musa don't compare to Kakeru and Haiji, they're still three of the top 5 runners of the team, whils their poorest runners are Prince, Nico and King, two of which ran in the second half. Having 3/5 of your best runners on day one and 2/3 of your worst runners on day 2 is not "frontloading poorer runners". Stop twisting the facts.
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Merida
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:55 am Reply with quote
I was a bit worried that King wouldn't get a lot of screentime because the show wanted to get to Kakeru's part quickly, so i was really glad to be proven wrong. Talk about becoming one of the most relatable anime characters ever in half an episode. Smile

The animation and the music during Kakeru's run was amazing, it really made you feel it.

Only one episode to go, i can't believe it's ending already. My heart is not ready for Haiji's part...
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MF65



Joined: 14 Dec 2017
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2019 3:57 am Reply with quote
Never expected KazeTsuyo to actually make me care for King this late on the show. But here he is, being even more relatable than Prince himself. That hit very close to home. I'm not ready for Haiji's suffering Crying or Very sad

meiam wrote:
Yada yada

I don't think it's the show's fault that you're pretending to have the attention span of a fish just so you can keep using the same tired arguments over and over even after the show itself and other people in this thread explain it to you.

"Well that hasn't aged very well, the team that was in 16th position just magically went up 8 place with there strongest one and an half member left"
Oh No! The guy who's been shown to be a really fast runner from the very first episode, actually runs faster than others!!!! Rolling Eyes Yea, that gotcha! didn't go very well for you as well. Tragic. Do you remember when Nico-chan run and he was told by the coach that despite him being 13th in his section, the team was only 16th overall? Yea, there's other runners on the team. And they finished last the previous day. Oops.

"As for the time, I can't read japansse so I can't read what the board says (worth noting this is for a very different distance, obviously no one run a half marathon in 15 minutes)."
That's why I went to the trouble of translating it for you. But, if you don't believe me, I can show you the same screenshot with subtitles.
"Yuki finished his section 02 seconds behind the first runner, something which no one else came close to doing"
Yes. He run downhill and didn't hold back (to the point his feet were bleeding at the end) and then said himself that he would never be able to close that gap. What makes you think that he could somehow close the 31s of difference to Joji or the 29s to Musa just like that? And, despite Yuki finishing just 2 seconds behind the first runner, somehow the team isn't in second place. See how it works? You ended up contradicting your first point here
meiam wrote:
the team that was in 16th position just magically went up 8 place with there strongest one and an half member left (Kakeru said he was 10th and later on he caught up to two more runners)
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Merida
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Joined: 21 Feb 2012
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:15 pm Reply with quote
I was half-expecting Shindo-levels of suffering, or even worse, for Haiji, so i was really happy that his run was, for the most part, portrayed as a personal triumph.

Kakeru might be the miracle runner who broke the section record, but it was "not as special as Kakeru or Fujioka"-Haiji who secured the team 10th spot and laid the foundation for the furture! Sure, it was painful and probably ruined his leg for good (though it seemed to be pretty bad before already...), but he was prepared for this, it was a very conscious decision on his part.

So Kakeru watching Haiji run pretty much mirrored my own feelings: i felt sad that he was in pain but also insanely happy that he was able to fullfill the dream he has worked so hard for (and which wasn't his dream alone anymore) and also a little bit in love (or rather, a lot. I mean come on, that innuendo was not even close to being subtle anmyore...). Wink

Again, there were countless amazing moments between the different characters, far too many to list and i also loved the part after the timeskip with their new looks and Haiji actually having become a coach which suits him best. And then it came full circle with Kakeru asking Haiji's question from ep.1: "Hey, do you like running?"

I loved this show a lot and i'm going to miss all these characters which grew on me so much over those 23+ weeks. But i'm also very satisfied with the ending (though a couple of OVA certainly wouldn't hurt...) and will remember it fondly for a long time.
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Rednimue



Joined: 07 Dec 2016
Posts: 106
PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:53 pm Reply with quote
For those who have read the novel, how much material was omitted from the anime (the ending in particular) and how many episodes would It take to be completely adapted eventually ?
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