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MF65 wrote:

I feel like folks here are grossly underestimating both the show and Haiji. He's been wanting to run in the Ekiden for years. He's been planning this race and carefully picking up the members of this team for a very, VERY long time. He was cunning enough to get everyone on board. Why would he risk losing everything he worked so hard for if he didn't have some sort of plan regarding Ouji?

Except that's not true at all, listen to the argument you just made it makes no sense. the show went out of its way to let us know the people Haiji recruited where the ones poor or stingy enough to decide staying at a run down shack. what kind of master planner concludes he must recruit a nerd that has never exercised, a student about to graduate desperate for landing a job, an exchange student from a poor country that has to do part time to cover the rest of his bills while still obtaining good enough grades to maintain his government funded scholarship, a large built literal cigarette addict, an evicted shoplifter (that obviously has bigger problems in his life than running or not in a marathon, regardless how good at it he actually is). just what kind of god do you believe Haiji to be? not only he apparently has some godly insight to be able to discern these guys alleged latent potential in spite of all of theirs circumstances (not only their athletic skills) but he must also be confidence in his world level coaching skills to be able to get them in shape in an unbelievable amount of time, cause you know being an (apparently good) high-school runner automatically gives you all the qualifications, knowledge and experience required to successfully train average people with lots of baggage for a top level national competition

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I mean, Haiji IS a great guy and it's easy to see that he cares deeply for everyone in the team and is genuinely happy to see them improving. But I don't think he's naive enough to believe that everything will sort itself out thanks to the "power of the friendship". I also don't think he would get Ouji on the team just because he's desperate for a 10th member. He already waited a long time for Kakeru to show up. What's a couple more months? To just simply assume that Ouji will magically get the necessary results out of nowhere is, honestly, insulting towards the show and everything it's done right so far.

don't get me wrong, I also like Haiji a lot, he IS a great guy, in fact I believe (and hope) his insistence on the team being able to join the race THIS YEAR must be a delusion justified in the story as part of the character drama, cause you know, the show recognizes he is a complex human with regrets towards his injuries and anxieties towards being able to accomplish one of his long held dreams before graduation college (and thus passing his prime age for running). he is not naive, he doesn't have to be in order to act this way, people that subconsciously lie to themselves are not aware of the fact, he doesn't want to let himself face the true, he is just that desperate, so much that he recruited these guys

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Also, not sure where that "Kakeru just wants to achieve Haiji's goal" argument came from. Did I miss something? From the very beginning he's been doing his own thing, focusing only on improving himself and not bothering with the rest of the team. What I saw in the last couple of episodes was a teenage boy who was convinced he was better than he actually is and then had to face the hard reality when he found out there's some people who run faster than him. Instead of focusing on why that happened and how to improve (the show makes it obvious that whatever it is he's doing now is not working), he decides to lash out on his teammates instead.

yes, apparently you missed a lot. he isn't lashing out at people because he thought he was the best then got salty when other people beat him. you are missing the context, he comes from the world of top tier competitive running, he knew there were people faster than him, what he realized when he got beaten is that he had been taking it too easy since joining the team, he lash out at them because he THINKS they are not taking it seriously enough. let me be clear, it seems to me as if they are legitimately doing the best they can and training harder is obviously not gonna do them any good as it isn't doing kakeru any either, like you pointed out. Kakeru is conflicted by two feelings because of his past trauma, for once he feels like he is falling behind on his own level and on the other he is afraid his team mates would antagonize/exclude him if he where to continue out classing them as it happened with his high school team, thus he wants to continue getting better but he also want the others to be as good as him, it is irrational but that is what anxiety does to people. I am not saying he wasn't a jerk just that he is more complex that you give him credit for. the whole reason he is being obsessed with performance is because Haiji told him they were aiming for hakone, freaking hakone, and for this year! imagine what kakeru feels would happen when the date of the race arrives and he is the only one with a competitive time. the others would give him the cold shoulder and recent him for being the only one outstanding, this is fueled by an interaction he already had twice with the twins when he showed concerned about the team's improvement, they told him "why do you care (about our performance)? you did good". of course we know this guys are nice enough to not irrationally take it on him, but he can't realize it

Merida wrote:

I think the show managed to convey that just fine, it's just that some of the commenters here seem to be so focused on their hatred of his character that they are conveniently ignoring it...it's also a bit condescending that some people seem to consider the rest of the characters to be totally at the mercy of big, bad Haiji, like they have no will or brains of their own...

I don't think anyone here really hates Haiji, even if he were an actual villain I at least wouldn't hate him, because he is a well written relatable flawed character. what some of us hold issue with is the show framing him as a moral compass for its narrative. I can be totally on board with Haiji telling kakeru off for being an ass, but the show itself seemingly siding with his cheesy bullet train quote would be a huge demerit to what it has build so far.

Ah, it would seem that I am either not making my point very well or people are taking it the wrong way. I'll see if I can clear certain points I had up and then leave the conversation at that.

Merida wrote:

Sure, Kakeru could probably make it to Hakone with a good team, but where is he supposed to find that? Thing is, when Haiji met him he was far from being part of any team but quite literally running from his problems instead. We already got a glimpse of what those were about when we met his former teammate but that's probably just the tip of the iceberg. So, what i'm trying to say is, i don't believe that Kakeru's outbursts are only because of him being frustrated with Haiji or the team...

[...]

But well, since sports anime rarely inspires such a vivid discussion, the show seems to do something right at the very least. Smile

I was not trying to insinuate that Kakeru would go looking for a good team, simply that that's the high standard he is used to. He is that good of a runner that if he had chosen to continue instead of quitting for as-of-yet unknown/vague reasons, he could have. I actually agree that I don't think Kakeru's outbursts are only because of Haiji and the team, though I could see why you would think that from what I wrote. I'm not sure how to explain this, but... hmm... I think Kakeru's problems are with competition in general. This is why I think that Haiji telling Kakeru that the high goal he has set for them is something he knows is unobtainable is important and would fix the problem. If the idea of this being a serious try at getting a team of 10 good runners into Hakone is taken out of the picture, then the only person Kakeru has to worry about is himself. They could all run and train together, but he would not need to rely on them to help him succeed. He may very well still push himself too hard, but it seems unlikely that he would take it out on anyone else as they would no longer be factors in his success. I hope that makes more sense... I do quite enjoy a lively, civil discussion, though, so I appreciate your thoughts. Smile

Gina Szanboti wrote:

Did I miss something? I don't get what Kakeru is thinking. Bottom line is you need 10 people to run the Hakone Ekiden, and they don't have a replacement for Ouji, even if they all agreed he should quit. There is no "quitting for the good of the team," because if he or any of them quit for any reason, game over, there is no team.

While this is true, the reality is that there is no (qualifying) team with Prince either. If this universe has any semblance of reality, then no amount of training will allow him to over halve his time in just 7 months. That is simply not how distance running works.

Now, saying that, I believe Kakeru's thinking is that Prince's slow pace is holding others back (likely Haiji as he is often the one seen running alongside him), and that's why he asks him to quit. But in truth his thinking on this is wrong, and Prince being out there trying his best all the time is likely actually helping others try harder. His real goal should be to find an 11th member if he cares that much, not tear down the ones they have.

MF65 wrote:

I feel like folks here are grossly underestimating both the show and Haiji. He's been wanting to run in the Ekiden for years. [...] Why would he risk losing everything he worked so hard for if he didn't have some sort of plan regarding Ouji? [...] He already waited a long time for Kakeru to show up. What's a couple more months? To just simply assume that Ouji will magically get the necessary results out of nowhere is, honestly, insulting towards the show and everything it's done right so far.

I am going to assume you are unfamiliar with distance running. The problem is that there simply is no viable plan for someone as slow as Prince outside of an actual miracle to get a time good enough to qualify in 7 months. He is truly that slow when it comes to competition running. And I'm sure that Haiji is aware of this; I never meant to imply that he wasn't. Personally I don't feel his real goal is Hakone, but that he's using that in order to motivate everyone to work together and compete as a team, but we'll see how things go from here. Also, a couple more months is everything. As it stands they have already started far too late, but it's anime so there has to be at least some amount of suspension of disbelief. Being expected to do that for characters getting times in the 16s is fine, but not in the 30s.

MF65 wrote:

Also, not sure where that "Kakeru just wants to achieve Haiji's goal" argument came from. [...] How that translates into "he's upset because he is taking Haiji's goal seriously" is beyond me but, who knows, maybe the show actually succeed in brainwashing me to side with Haiji ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Kakeru was initially not interested in the team, but between Haiji's insistence that they were going to make it to Hakone and (the really fast runner from a different school whose name I have admittedly forgotten) seeming to put his stamp of approval on Haiji's efforts, Kakeru does decide to take that goal seriously. He is not doing it for Haiji, of course - he wants to do it for himself. He wants to be able to compete, and as the team he has found himself on has a goal of racing in Hakone, that is the goal he focuses on. The problem is that it is a team event. If it were a solo event, he would likely end up pushing himself too hard, but refrain from being hard on the others, as I said in a response above. This is what I meant by "he is taking Haiji's goal seriously". He is taking the goal of going to Hakone seriously, and as Haiji is the one who forced this goal on everyone, this is Haiji's goal. However since Haiji is the one saying that these specific 10 will definitely make it despite the fact that it is impossible for one of them to do so, it comes across to Kakeru that Haiji himself is not taking his own goal seriously enough. This is what I meant by all of that. I apologize if you still are confused by what I'm trying to say, but I'm not sure how else to explain it, I admit.

And no where did I use the term "brainwashing". I said "the show clearly wants the audience to side with [Haiji]". This is just something that any show does. If there is a death scene, the show wants you to feel sad so they will frame it with sad music, maybe rain, maybe crying, possibly even final words. The goal is to make the viewer feel that sense of sadness. The scene where Kakeru "watches" himself shoplift is framed in a way to make you think "this is bad, he shouldn't do this". The scene where Prince first runs past a butterfly is framed in a way to make you feel proud of his achievements. The scenes of King avoiding running and looking for a job are shown in a "this is not what he should be doing; he should be running" way. I didn't mean it as an insult. This is simply what shows do - they try to make you feel or think a certain way, and a lot of the time, it will succeed with it's intended audience (so long as it's not a poorly written mess or something). This is why I was offering my own differing opinion - because it was counter to what the show was trying to get across and therefore I was not surprised to see that most people did not see things the way I did.

Also would just like to agree with everything MiloTheFirst said above. Saw the responses go up as I was finishing typing this all up.

Anyway, I don't think I can explain my views any better. Hope that clears up any confusion anyone may have had with anything I said. Enjoy the discussion!

MiloTheFirst wrote:

Except that's not true at all, listen to the argument you just made it makes no sense. the show went out of its way to let us know the people Haiji recruited where the ones poor or stingy enough to decide staying at a run down shack. what kind of master planner concludes he must recruit a nerd that has never exercised, a student about to graduate desperate for landing a job, an exchange student from a poor country that has to do part time to cover the rest of his bills while still obtaining good enough grades to maintain his government funded scholarship, a large built literal cigarette addict, an evicted shoplifter (that obviously has bigger problems in his life than running or not in a marathon, regardless how good at it he actually is).

How convenient of you to forget that 7 out of 10 of them have athletic backgrounds (except, obviously, for Prince, Shindou who used to walk 20 km daily through the mountains to get to school and Musa who has great muscles Wink

). The "large built cigarette addict" even mentioned his track and field past just last episode. But sure, let's just ignore that and pretend Haiji reall didn't think this through to better fit your narrative.

MiloTheFirst wrote:

but he must also be confidence in his world level coaching skills to be able to get them in shape in an unbelievable amount of time, cause you know being an (apparently good) high-school runner automatically gives you all the qualifications, knowledge and experience required to successfully train average people with lots of baggage for a top level national competition

Weird. Did I miss the episode about Haiji's past? Because all the episodes I've seen so far don't really go out of their way to show us his background. As far as you and I know, he might actually have world level coaching skills. He's still pretty much a mystery.
I mean, it's fine to have different opinions and speculate about what might be happening, but the moment you start pushing your opinions as facts, you lose any semblance of reason.

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he is not naive, he doesn't have to be in order to act this way, people that subconsciously lie to themselves are not aware of the fact, he doesn't want to let himself face the true, he is just that desperate, so much that he recruited these guys

Again, your opinion. Not a fact.

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yes, apparently you missed a lot. he isn't lashing out at people because he thought he was the best then got salty when other people beat him. you are missing the context, he comes from the world of top tier competitive running, he knew there were people faster than him, what he realized when he got beaten is that he had been taking it too easy since joining the team, he lash out at them because he THINKS they are not taking it seriously enough.

Do remember to get back at me about this particular quote in a few episodes lol

Mind you, I do agree that Kakeru is a lot more complex than it seems I gave him credit for in my previous post. Not gonna deny that. The characters, their personalities and interactions are what attracts me the most to this show. But you and others on this thread continually using Haiji as an excuse for Kakeru's asshole-ry or calling him out on his hypocrisy while ignoring the fact that Kakeru himself is doing the exact same thing his high school coach did (getting annoyed at others ans looking down on them for not being on his level) just doesn't sit well with me.

Both Haiji and Kakeru are acting childishly in their particular fashions. Seems odd to get caught up in defending or attacking either of them, though. Don't think deciding who's in the right or wrong is really the point.

As a person who practiced athletics, mainly sprint and long distance for a decade then had to stop everythings when i became heavily disabled, Haiji's case hit rather close home .
At first, i disliked him, often considered that he was pushing his view on them way too much even when we first knew about his injurie i thought it didn't matter and didn't give him any right to do it, now i don't really know what to think about him, my earliest thought are still there, of course, there is no way that he isn't being selfish but i might start having affection and pity for him. While the means may be wrong, wanting to hang on to a dream and sharing it with mates is something that can't be wrong.

Kakeru isn't wrong too, all athletes have been there, times are important, wanting to improve them even by a tad can become an obsession that make them to forget everything else in order to reach this goal. Stepping him aside to broaden his horizons was a good idea.

It's rather rare so i doubt that it's gonna happen but i also have more and more the feeling that Haiji isn't going to run in Hakone and that the others will continue in order not to waste the "legacy" he passed down. This serie's atmosphere remind me more and more of Overdrive's, if they could spend the whole second part on the race and showing us the characters's final "growth" there, which Overdrive did, i would be delight.

There is a saying that keeps going through my mind watching this 'reach for the moon, even if you miss you'll land among the stars'

I think that fits this motley team well.

I imagine he's got some mystery heart ailment or anime disease, but I found myself wondering if he doesn't have narcolepsy. I suspect that whatever his problem is, it's how he wrecked his leg.

I don't share Lauren's dislike of cliffhangers if they're done right, and this series does them right in my book.

Gina Szanboti wrote:

I imagine he's got some mystery heart ailment or anime disease, but I found myself wondering if he doesn't have narcolepsy. I suspect that whatever his problem is, it's how he wrecked his leg.

Ugh, i really hope it's "just" exhaustion. Haji's already got the injury, it's his final year at university and he's trying to qualify with a team which basically consists of beginners - i'd say the stakes are high enough already, he doesn't need a potentially lethal disease on top...also my poor heart seriously couldn't take it. Crying or Very sad

But i hope it will make the rest of the team, especially Kakeru, step up and really commit to the goal.

Loved everything else about this episode: Haiji talking to Prince, that amazing bento, the cheering...and i just now realized that the novel the show is based on was written by the same author as The Great Passage, no wonder it's so good!

I post my guess at another forum about what could possibly ail Haiji. Rather than copy and paste, a resummary is better.

While it seems to be that Haiji is hit by exhaustion from doing and managing some many things, from coming up with their training menu, shopping for food, managing their nutrition, cooking their meals (and delivering meals too), plus his other student activities, it should not be no surprise that he may have overstretched himself.

However, the short flashback that showed him working himself back to walking using the parallel bars after his knee surgery has given us more information to speculate further. My guess is that his knee surgery is not due to injury nor accident. It could have been knee surgery to remove cancer tumour - osteosarcoma (https://www.cancer.org/cancer/osteosarcoma/about/what-is-osteosarcoma.html). This is a bone cancer that usually occurs at the knee, particularly affevting kids and teens. How I came to think about it was due to recollecting that the main character in Takehiko Inoue's wheelchair basketball manga, REAL, who had osteosarcoma in his early teens, which went undiagnosed until his knee shattered when running a race. He was an up and coming track runner. They had to amuptate his leg at slightly above the knee to save him. In Haiji's case, they may have remove the tumour in time. What is happening now to Haiji could probably be the cancer coming back.

Guys, this episode was really cute. I certainly enjoyed it. However, i think the series massively shot itself in the back by acknowledging Prince's atrocious form as an actual fact and not just a running gag (heh, get it?). Seeing kakeru slowly becoming involved and actually root for his peer was heart warning, but in which universe does it make sense for haiji to not have addressed everyone's form at the very beginning of their training? Ouji could have gotten seriously hurt by running that way, all the encouraging was nice but if he was taking their training seriously at all, how could he skip teaching them HOW to run?.

So what I was afraid would happened happened, they treated Kakeru pointing out that Prince would never achieve the required time as a personal conflict (which it isn't) rather than a real problem for the whole team (which it is). iirc when Kakeru asked Haiji he fainted, I like to think the writer just went "wow we can't touch that subject, just knock one out before he finish his question!".

Literally nobody thinks they are going to get into this marathon. Nico says its impossible, Yuki is skeptical. Prince doesn't think he's going to qualify and when he asks Haiji point blank if he will Haiji doesn't answer saying only he is improving.

Kakeru who knows better than anyone its very unlikely has come around to the idea that there is more to running than speed.

If nobody expects they will get in. Nobody is going to be disappointed and maybe people in this series should adjust their expectations and stop being hung up on that like Kakeru was.
There are some possibilities though if you read the rules for entry.

MiloTheFirst wrote:

if he was taking their training seriously at all, how could he skip teaching them HOW to run?.

Ouji is the only one with serious problems with his form (and I'm happy to see that they addressed it). But Haiji admitted he didn't really know what to do about it. Had he been carping on it from the start, Ouji would likely have bailed or at least rebelled before he could find a reason to keep going. For everything there is a season, and the first order of business was getting Ouji invested in running for his own sake. Fortunately, and to Haiji's delight, several problems got worked out at the same time, without him micromanaging everything toward that resolution.

Jeez, I think Lauren spent more time complaining about the cliffhanger than the cliffhanger took.

Gina Szanboti wrote:

MiloTheFirst wrote:

if he was taking their training seriously at all, how could he skip teaching them HOW to run?.

Ouji is the only one with serious problems with his form (and I'm happy to see that they addressed it). But Haiji admitted he didn't really know what to do about it. Had he been carping on it from the start, Ouji would likely have bailed or at least rebelled before he could find a reason to keep going. For everything there is a season, and the first order of business was getting Ouji invested in running for his own sake. Fortunately, and to Haiji's delight, several problems got worked out at the same time, without him micromanaging everything toward that resolution.

Jeez, I think Lauren spent more time complaining about the cliffhanger than the cliffhanger took.

I agree that just making sure the guy wouldn't get fed up and quit is an obvious priority but they already have a couplem onths at it. how could he think it would be healthy to demands those multiple hour long training sessions without making sure the guy understood it is NECESARY for him to keep his back straight and face forward, that's not micromanaging, it is esential to avoid over ventilating, knee and lower back injuries

Don't take me wrong, I am not criticising Haiji, I am not saying he is an idiot nor that he is not taking it seriously, my complain is with the writing, iti s preicesily because haiji already knows how to run very well and because hwo serious he is taking it that this scenario is so stupid, it is just incongruous with the stablished sense of awareness of each character and tone of the serees for Haiji to just sweep under the rug such a simple yet esential issue hoping that it solves itself along the way

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