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Manga Answerman - What Makes A Great English Translation?


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Yuvelir



Joined: 06 Jan 2015
Posts: 1529
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:09 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
or 3) omitting the reference to brother / sister and replacing it with just the character's first name or nickname. I tend to think option 3 is more natural in English, since I personally *never* refer to my siblings as “bro” or “sis” in conversation, but instead call them by their first names

I absolutely despise this one, if nothing else because it's always done with no elegance and with absolute disregard to the character's personality or nuance.
This character is absurdly shy and never calls anyone by first name or without honorifics, so why in hell are they calling a friend's brother who they just met yesterday by first name alone? In anime form it's even worse because you can hear that the name is nowhere to be found.
First name replacement is the jelly donuts of honorific translations.

Zerreth wrote:
It's probably a non-debate that everyone would like the cleanest, most natural sounding translation that fits as close to the original language as possible, so I'm gonna push the edges a bit and state my opinion between overly-literal translations vs. complete rewrites.

As a non-native speaker, how natural the translation sounds is of very low priority to me. I consume media in English because it happens to be a language I can easily understand that also has most of the stuff I look for. That and force of habit.
So I appreciate a translation that respects my cultural knowledge/curiosity way above one that sounds like it could actually be spoken in a place that is neither where I live nor where the work takes place.

Of course a natural translation is way better than a word by word one, but there are many extremes and inbetweens that would sound good but be unacceptable in my eyes.[/quote]
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Juno016



Joined: 09 Jan 2012
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:22 pm Reply with quote
NISIOISIN's works are some of my favorite to translate, but also really hard to make interesting in English for other readers. Whether it's dialogue or exposition, Nisio has a rythm to his prose that often feels very Japanese, even if it's in a contemporary way. For one, he likes Japanese puns, which are always a struggle in translation, but more so than that, he plays with Japanese words and contepts in philosophical ways that sometimes only really make sense in Japanese. Like, there's absolutely no way someone can create English equivalents to many of them. Ko Ransom (currently translating Monogatari) only gets enough of a pass by adding lines into the exposition to make it clear we're talking about a Japanese word/concept. Then we deal with how Nisio writes in general. With or without puns or philosophy, he plays games with his characters, often creating straight-man comedy skits at random, or throwing in very Japanese-like responses. These are hilarious in Japanese, but come off extremely awkward in English and often feel like dumb tangents. The Monogatari anime supplements this with creative flourishes to give us more oomph during rebutals, jokes, or contemplations, but anime like Katanagatari fail to add the oomph in most of the time, so unless you can take in the verbal dialogue, subtitles can really be a bore to read.

For manga, though, I loved the Del Rey model growing up. They would often change the joke and then include the original Japanese joke in the back (with pictures), or in the rare case of things like Kurogane's "manjuu" name for Mokona (in Tsubasa), they would keep the joke and you could learn its meaning in the back.

As for honorifics, it honestly depends on the work. I love them in my translations because they serve to provide a subtle cultural supplement of information to the reader, but some people find them distracting. They're usually only important to everyone if the honorifics become the focus of a scene (ie. CharaA calls CharaB by their given name with no honorifics for the first time and CharaB's eyes light up in surprise). I've seen way too many scenes (dub, sub, verbal, text, etc.) where the example happens and because the work doesn't use honorifics, the characters just... are surprised for no reason, or the switch from surname to given name has no explanation, so an unknowing audience may wonder why this is significant. Translation notes come the most in handy, but Del Rey always had a honorific guide in the front as a reference and it helped me learn the meaning of such a huge, important cultural plug quickly so I could read seemlessly without honorifics feeling like a distraction (like how we spend time tying our shoes and learning songs about loop-de-loops so we can just do it subconsciously on our way out the door as adults).
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whiskeyii



Joined: 29 May 2013
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:51 pm Reply with quote
Juno016 wrote:

As for honorifics, it honestly depends on the work. I love them in my translations because they serve to provide a subtle cultural supplement of information to the reader, but some people find them distracting. They're usually only important to everyone if the honorifics become the focus of a scene (ie. CharaA calls CharaB by their given name with no honorifics for the first time and CharaB's eyes light up in surprise). I've seen way too many scenes (dub, sub, verbal, text, etc.) where the example happens and because the work doesn't use honorifics, the characters just... are surprised for no reason, or the switch from surname to given name has no explanation, so an unknowing audience may wonder why this is significant. Translation notes come the most in handy, but Del Rey always had a honorific guide in the front as a reference and it helped me learn the meaning of such a huge, important cultural plug quickly so I could read seemlessly without honorifics feeling like a distraction (like how we spend time tying our shoes and learning songs about loop-de-loops so we can just do it subconsciously on our way out the door as adults).


Yeah, even as someone who usually doesn't give a flying fig for honorifics, I will always burn with the fury of a white-hot sun that Cardcaptor Sakura's "dub"-titles really trampled all over the "Sakura says 'Syaoran/Xiaolang' first time" scene that they already knew was going to be in the show. They literally had years to work around this, so WHY?????
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Lord Oink



Joined: 06 Jul 2016
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 3:14 am Reply with quote
Fluwm wrote:
No reputable translator would ever leave "nakama" as-is.


Crunchyroll isn't a reputable translator I guess. I don't know if they've left "nakama" specifically untranslated, but their subs have left plenty of words and terms untranslated. It's funny to go back and watch those old fansub documentaries by Otaking on YouTube because Crunchyroll effectively breaks every single rule he complained fansubs broke back in the day that "official subs would never do". My what a difference 10 years makes. Laughing

Yuvelir wrote:
I absolutely despise this one, if nothing else because it's always done with no elegance and with absolute disregard to the character's personality or nuance.
This character is absurdly shy and never calls anyone by first name or without honorifics, so why in hell are they calling a friend's brother who they just met yesterday by first name alone? In anime form it's even worse because you can hear that the name is nowhere to be found.
First name replacement is the jelly donuts of honorific translations.


I totally agree. Same thing with honorifics being omitted. There's plenty of anime I can think of where if the translator took that approach from episode 1 they'd be completely screwed later on when they become key parts to a character. There's one funny example in the Super Sentai fansub community where a certain fansub group who prides themselves in 'localizing' subs decided to translate Go-Buster Oh as Go-Buster King, since Oh = King. This later came around to bite them in the butt when the final upgrade for the robo was actually called Go-Buster King.

Perhaps the worst official sub I ever saw was Steins;Gate, which was filled with localized geek references like RickRoll'd and Epic Fail and other mid 2000s memes and references. You definitely needed the fansubs/rewrite-subs for that series.
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poisondusk



Joined: 08 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 6:48 am Reply with quote
I've translated and edited other people's translations, and when I come across something overly literal and unnatural, it tells me that the translator didn't fully understand the Japanese and so they don't know how to render it naturally in English. Alternatively, a different translator might take a stab at it and try something that sounds natural, but ultimately misinterprets the source material. Both of these would be bad translations, in different ways.

When I see people argue in favour of literal translations, I get the impression that they think they're missing out on something, that a less literal translation is robbing them of a vital Japanese-ness that the work should have. Obviously there are bad, excessively heavy-handed localisations that needlessly cut out cultural elements that could have stayed, but for the most part, it's the literal translation that leaves you with a lesser experience and understanding. Awkwardly-phrased, weird English trying to imitate Japanese grammar doesn't give you a better understanding of Japanese language or culture. Take some Japanese classes for that.

TheObserver99 wrote:
I think it's important to note that translation and localization are two different things. Good translators shouldn't be localizers - accept the Japanese cultural context for what it is.


They're two different things, but it's the line between isn't as clear cut as you make it sound, and translation in an entertainment industry like anime or games is often going to include a mix of both. When I was translating video games, I was expected to do everything from straightforward translations (translating the time and contents of a new event in a live game), to heavy localisation (achievement names in Japanese are often simple and reflect the actions needed to unlock it, in English it's common to include jokes and references, or literary flourishes to suit the tone of the game). A good professional translator knows when something needs substantial rewriting to work, and when it's fine as it is.
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Actar



Joined: 21 Nov 2010
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Location: Singapore
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 8:09 am Reply with quote
Character says: 「日本語でお願い。」 Do you translate this into: “Speak Japanese please.” or “Speak English please.”

I believe that a good translation should be as transparent as possible, letting the original work speak for itself. It is the translator's job to present the original text to the viewer so that it can live and die by its own merits. But here's where another complication comes into the picture. How should one try to approach the text? Localize everything and make it into something familiar in order to provide the viewer with a similar experience that the Japanese get? Where do you draw the line? Change a reference to another anime into a reference to an American cartoon? Change sashimi to raw fish slices? Personally, I'd rather appreciate the show from a foreign viewer's perspective. Completely cognizant of the fact that it's a foreign product and embrace its differences.

Sometimes, when watching localizations, I honestly feel that I'm being condescended to or even lied to, especially when there is an obvious disconnect and disjuncture that is created between the subtitles and the audio/video. Stuff like changing Famicom to NES, Naginata to Pole-arm or onigiri to doughnuts is just ridiculous, especially when the respective objects are on-screen. With cultural elements, where are you going to draw the line? Won't people find it weird that classmates address each other by their last names?

This also happens with regard to jokes, puns, idioms, sayings and wordplay. While idioms and sayings usually have equivalents, more often than not, jokes, puns and wordplay get replaced by something the translator has written. I want to know what joke the character used and not one that the translator has come up with. Explaining a joke would ruin it, sure. But again, I realize that I'm watching it from a foreigner's perspective and I'd rather understand the joke and be able to appreciate the humor in the original language. There are jokes that work phenomenally in both languages, coincidentally enough, but not all of them do.

People have given the argument that the lack of localization would make the show far more esoteric and harder for people to enjoy. Okay, fine. But anyone notice a double standard here? Take a look at British shows. Do they change ‘torch’ to ‘flashlight’ or ‘car park’ to ‘parking lot’ or ‘bangers and mash’ to ‘sausages and mashed potatoes’? Nope. Yes, you could say that it’s still English, but people outside the UK get stumped by the terms, jokes, colloquialisms and cultural references all the same. Wanna enjoy them to the fullest? Tough luck, you gotta get yourself immersed in the culture. What happens when you come across an English word, name or reference you have never heard before on television? You look it up, guess its meaning or just forget about it. Yet, when it comes to other languages and cultures, we feel the need to spoon-feed the viewer by transforming everything into something familiar and relatable.

As a translator myself, my philosophy is to never let myself get in the way of the text and the final product. Hearteningly, this is a sentiment that is shared by a number of professional translators I've had the honor of meeting over the years.
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Shiflan



Joined: 29 Jul 2015
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:08 am Reply with quote
Actar wrote:
How should one try to approach the text? Localize everything and make it into something familiar in order to provide the viewer with a similar experience that the Japanese get? Where do you draw the line? Change a reference to another anime into a reference to an American cartoon? Change sashimi to raw fish slices? Personally, I'd rather appreciate the show from a foreign viewer's perspective. Completely cognizant of the fact that it's a foreign product and embrace its differences.


I don't think there's one clear answer, and that's what makes the translator's job so difficult. Clearly we can find paradigm cases on either side of the argument. Most English-speakers know what common Japanese loanwords like Sashimi, Ramen, and Karate mean so I see no reason to change those words. And likewise there are other Japanese words or phrases which certainly do need to be translated because the average reader probably has no clue what they mean: cultural idioms, slang, Shinto or Buddhist terms. But where exactly to draw that line is the hard part. Take the common word "senpai", for example. I'd think that most anime or manga fans probably know what that means so I'd be inclined to leave it as-is, just like how I wouldn't translate "sushi" or "ninja". Though I'm sure that some readers, mainly new ones, would probably be confused as to what it means.

Quote:
Sometimes, when watching localizations, I honestly feel that I'm being condescended to or even lied to, especially when there is an obvious disconnect and disjuncture that is created between the subtitles and the audio/video. Stuff like changing Famicom to NES, Naginata to Pole-arm or onigiri to doughnuts is just ridiculous, especially when the respective objects are on-screen.

I don't have a gripe with changing Famicom to NES since the two are basically the same thing. Naginata to polearm is a strange one. It is accurate, but it sounds clinical and it's also a bit vague. I think "halberd" would be a better translation for that, assuming one feels that it needs translation at all. But the onigiri to doughnuts is just plain ridiculous. What's wrong with "rice balls"? But I digress. I agree completely that a poor translation can easily make the reader feel they are being lied to.

Quote:
This also happens with regard to jokes, puns, idioms, sayings and wordplay. While idioms and sayings usually have equivalents, more often than not, jokes, puns and wordplay get replaced by something the translator has written. I want to know what joke the character used and not one that the translator has come up with. Explaining a joke would ruin it, sure. But again, I realize that I'm watching it from a foreigner's perspective and I'd rather understand the joke and be able to appreciate the humor in the original language. There are jokes that work phenomenally in both languages, coincidentally enough, but not all of them do.


Agreed completely, especially the part I emphasized. My preference is that if the joke doesn't have an equivalent which works the same way in English then just leave it as-is and give it an unobtrusive footnote. A reader familiar with Japanese culture to some degree might recognize it or get it as-is. A reader who is confused can read the footnote and learn the joke.


Quote:
Wanna enjoy them to the fullest? Tough luck, you gotta get yourself immersed in the culture. What happens when you come across an English word, name or reference you have never heard before on television? You look it up, guess its meaning or just forget about it. Yet, when it comes to other languages and cultures, we feel the need to spoon-feed the viewer by transforming everything into something familiar and relatable.


Well said.
I can't speak for all readers or subtitle watchers, but I enjoy learning new Japanese terms when I come across them in manga or anime. I often break out the dictionary whenever I hear a character speak a word that I know was highly localized in its translation. I find that sort of thing to be fun.
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Chester McCool



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:48 am Reply with quote
Actar wrote:
Character says: 「日本語でお願い。」 Do you translate this into: “Speak Japanese please.” or “Speak English please.”


The subs I've seen always leave it as Japanese. Even some dubs do. That's how I would handle it as well, since they're Japanese characters speaking Japanese and would hope people could suspend their disbelief enough to realize just because they're reading English subtitles doesn't mean the characters are speaking English.

poisonduck wrote:
When I was translating video games, I was expected to do everything from straightforward translations (translating the time and contents of a new event in a live game), to heavy localisation (achievement names in Japanese are often simple and reflect the actions needed to unlock it, in English it's common to include jokes and references, or literary flourishes to suit the tone of the game)


I'm not sure how it can suit the tone of the game if those kinds of jokes were not present in the game originally. That's generally why we end up with cases like people who get confused that the Gyakuten Saiban anime isn't littered with pop-culture jokes or memes like the "Ace Attorney" localization is which explains why Japan loves the anime but a lot of American fans seem so dismissive.
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Fluwm



Joined: 28 Jul 2009
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 3:58 pm Reply with quote
God, I want to be reborn in another world where no one ever confuses humor with pop culture references. Please. Please. Please.

Lord Oink wrote:
Fluwm wrote:
No reputable translator would ever leave "nakama" as-is.


Crunchyroll isn't a reputable translator I guess. I don't know if they've left "nakama" specifically untranslated, but their subs have left plenty of words and terms untranslated. It's funny to go back and watch those old fansub documentaries by Otaking on YouTube because Crunchyroll effectively breaks every single rule he complained fansubs broke back in the day that "official subs would never do". My what a difference 10 years makes. Laughing
[/quote]
Well, I mean, I am talking about the word nakama specifically here--it always has at least one clear English analog depending on context. The only (justifiable-ish) reason I can think of to leave it in would be to parody bad translations (we've all seen the meme). But even then, you're injecting something into the media that wasn't there originally, which is pretty unethical. Maybe manga and anime is just more liberal about these things? But every word is different (duh) and so is every context, so there are plenty of potential reasons to leave certain words untranslated.

Generally speaking there's an exception to every rule (or, rather, there are no hard and fast rules beyond "be fluent in both languages" and "respect the original media") so it can be acceptable to leave certain words untranslated. But it's definitely something to only ever do infrequently--you don't want to constantly be bombarding the audience with new words.

Japanese suffixes, for example, have no clear English analog, and rendering them as titles, while technically accurate, robs the language of its cultural nuance, because in English titles are only used in formal contexts. And also, adding suffixes to the English translation does not affect the rhythm much (on,y 1 or 2 syllables) and are frequently attached to names, so there's little danger of the reader getting confused. EG if you know there's a character named Takemikazuchi, readers will still recognize the name written as Takemikazuchi-kun.

Anyway, if you happen to remember what those old rules were, I'd love to hear them. Generally speaking (still) the more specific a rule of writing is, the less valid it is, but sometimes they can be amusing.

Quote:
I Perhaps the worst official sub I ever saw was Steins;Gate, which was filled with localized geek references like RickRoll'd and Epic Fail and other mid 2000s memes and references. You definitely needed the fansubs/rewrite-subs for that series.


Yikes. That's disappointing. Guess I'll be removing the BD from my Amazon wishlist. Shame, I really loved the game.

....

Oh, and I know it's a bit old, but y'all familiar with the first translation of Azumanga Daioh? What do you think about their decision to change English language/classes to Spanish? While not as drastic as Phoenix Wright's donuts, it's the same kind of thing--trying to make the subject matter more "relatable" to American audiences?

It was a choice I can understand, professionally, but it's really annoyed me for a long time (and still annoys me as I've still got the books). Similarly the "varsity" terminology in the Cross Game series. In both cases, I (part of the intended American audience) was *more* confused simply because I couldn't relate. I never learned Spanish in school, and I could imagine that many Japanese schoolchildren would be interested in Spanish, either; and not being crazy into sports, I wasn't familiar with the varsity terminology (whereas the Japanese terms more directly translated to things like first-string, second-string, etc. whose meaning is rather self-evident). At what point does Americanization go too far?
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Hiroki not Takuya



Joined: 17 Apr 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 11:59 pm Reply with quote
^^Referring more to the anime, it was one of my first experiences seeing difficulties in translating Japanese played out, but thought it was absolutely brilliant that they had "Osaka" speaking with a Southern American accent! The decision to not confuse US audiences having Miss Yukari teaching English but substitute Spanish I can see making sense at the time but did not really have to be done. Overall, it didn't detract much IMO as having her teaching any language other than Japanese (or German which comes later) functions the same in context. Seeing one anime where the students were in Japanese class was a head-scratcher.

I'm with you that Americanization can do violence to the Japanese text sometimes needlessly and that one should be very careful and sparing with it. Where it goes too far IMO is when the translator consciously tries to make the speakers sound American by inserting phrases or references or insert jokes that certainly wouldn't have been in the Japanese. Readers in the US are aware that they are reading something from Japan and it is distracting at a minimum. I'm with another commentator that a version of the original phraseology can be left approximately translated and if needed, margin notes can explain. I appreciate that approach as I wind up learning.
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Kadmos1



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 2:12 am Reply with quote
On the omission of honorifics or their equivalents in an Eng. translation is perhaps justified, here's an example: if you have an 1880s Victorian England story and all the characters are British, using "onee-chan" is perhaps inappropriate to the story's essence.
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Actar



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 2:27 am Reply with quote
One of the reasons I'm not a fan of omitting Onee-chan is that it signals to the viewer that the character is talking to his sister. If you just use the name, that nuance (or sometimes important info) is lost.
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Lord Oink



Joined: 06 Jul 2016
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 4:18 am Reply with quote
Fluwm wrote:
Well, I mean, I am talking about the word nakama specifically here--it always has at least one clear English analog depending on context. The only (justifiable-ish) reason I can think of to leave it in would be to parody bad translations (we've all seen the meme). But even then, you're injecting something into the media that wasn't there originally, which is pretty unethical. Maybe manga and anime is just more liberal about these things? But every word is different (duh) and so is every context, so there are plenty of potential reasons to leave certain words untranslated.


True, but I meant in the "keikaku means plan" kind of untranslated. Not honorifics of Japanese food/terms.

Quote:
Anyway, if you happen to remember what those old rules were, I'd love to hear them. Generally speaking (still) the more specific a rule of writing is, the less valid it is, but sometimes they can be amusing.


The documentaries are still up on his YouTube page so you can watch all of them yourself if you want. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUYlqLlbix0 But basically "fansubs should always translate honorifics, attack names, never leave a single word in Japanese like professional companies do" but since the rise of Crunchyroll professional companies do a lot of that now. This is an official Crunchyroll translation Laughing Not that I mind, but it's funny seeing how things change.

Quote:
Yikes. That's disappointing. Guess I'll be removing the BD from my Amazon wishlist. Shame, I really loved the game.


I don't know if the CR subs were kept for the BD or if they did new ones, but CR's translation was vastly different than the game's official English version if that's what you loved.

Quote:
Oh, and I know it's a bit old, but y'all familiar with the first translation of Azumanga Daioh? What do you think about their decision to change English language/classes to Spanish? While not as drastic as Phoenix Wright's donuts, it's the same kind of thing--trying to make the subject matter more "relatable" to American audiences?


I remember stuff like that, but to be honest I don't watch dubs so it doesn't really affect me. It might be getting into 'dub hater' territory but stuff like that is an inherent flaw with dubs I would say. Shows where one character is an American exchange student and speaks in constant English you might be able to flub by changing the language (though they're usually blonde hair and blue eyed so you can't convincingly say they're Mexican or Spanish) but in cases where the characters go overseas it wouldn't work, like the London arc of Detective Conan. If they changed it so the English couple who invited Shinichi to London were Spanish, well, they'd have a hard time explaining all those London landmarks like Wimbledon Stadium being elsewhere. They kind of already did that in the Case Closed dub when they said Osaka was Canada and Hattori was Canadian... and they go to Osaka plenty of times throughout the series. That's pretty much Ace Attorney levels of "shinto temples in California" right there Laughing

But if I was in charge, I would probably do everything in English, but leave the Engrish as Engrish so it's obvious they're supposed to be foreign. I'd use the original Japanese actor speaking Engrish to make it more obvious rather than dubbing over it.
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Shiflan



Joined: 29 Jul 2015
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 7:52 am Reply with quote
Actar wrote:
One of the reasons I'm not a fan of omitting Onee-chan is that it signals to the viewer that the character is talking to his sister. If you just use the name, that nuance (or sometimes important info) is lost.


I agree that often times the family connection is important to convey, but it's far from a hard-and-fast rule. It's common for characters to use words like "onee-chan", "nee-san", "oba-san", or "aniki" to refer to others characters who are not related by blood.


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ninjamitsuki



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 8:33 pm Reply with quote
I think taking liberties can be a good thing if the work in question doesn't take place in Japan. For instance, Chrono Crusade, Black Butler and Baccano's dub used period appropriate slang to great effect. And it's downright weird to hear people in a medieval European setting or whatever calling each other "senpai" or whatever. On the flip side, making Japanese characters in Japan talking like full-blown Americans is jarring.
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