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Manga Answerman - What Makes A Great English Translation?


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Yuvelir



Joined: 06 Jan 2015
Posts: 1558
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 7:14 am Reply with quote
Speaking of 90's localizations, in my country Doraemon was localized back then and they didn't shy away from Japanese culture and references, including yen (the Golden Week episode was quite a learning experience).
Then the license changed hands or whatever and, on top of a couple of voices changing, the localization was much heavier. The currency going from yen to pesetas was quite jarring.
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Fluwm



Joined: 28 Jul 2009
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 12:21 am Reply with quote
Shiflan wrote:
That said I agree with Hiroki not Takuya that having Osaka speak with a southern or Texan sort of accent was a great choice.

True. Thing is, w/ anime you've got to account for both what is said and HOW it's said. And accents are a great way to convey a lot of cultural information quickly and smoothly.

But it can be overdone. Make the accent too strong, and it can feel like a (very bad) parody. See Kitsune's voice in the English dub of Love Hina.

leafy sea dragon wrote:
What is the context behind "first-string," "second-string," and so forth?

Only 9 people can play baseball at a time, but baseball teams typically have more than 9 people. The team can loosely be divided into tiers based on skill, or other factors, and also divided into sub-teams for practice games.

EG say a team has 18 people on it; the 9 best players would be 1st string--the ones who would regularly play in real games. The other 9 would be 2nd string, and would play less often and less frequently in real games.

Using numbers to differentiate tiers is simple, succinct, and direct; using nouns unique to a very specific subculture is none of those things.
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leafy sea dragon



Joined: 27 Oct 2009
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 3:59 am Reply with quote
Fluwm wrote:
Only 9 people can play baseball at a time, but baseball teams typically have more than 9 people. The team can loosely be divided into tiers based on skill, or other factors, and also divided into sub-teams for practice games.

EG say a team has 18 people on it; the 9 best players would be 1st string--the ones who would regularly play in real games. The other 9 would be 2nd string, and would play less often and less frequently in real games.

Using numbers to differentiate tiers is simple, succinct, and direct; using nouns unique to a very specific subculture is none of those things.


Ah, I thought it was something specifically about Azumanga Daioh. Thanks. I know the meaning of the idioms, just was wondering how "first-string," "second-string," etc. was an Americanization and that the statement overall didn't really make much sense to me (hence why I mentioned if I was missing any context).
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Aca Vuksa



Joined: 22 Mar 2018
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 12:27 pm Reply with quote
Why is this artlce popped up on Febuary 1, this article 3 month old already.
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AksaraKishou



Joined: 16 May 2015
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 12:32 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
r 3) omitting the reference to brother / sister and replacing it with just the character's first name or nickname. I tend to think option 3 is more natural in English, since I personally *never* refer to my siblings as “bro” or “sis” in conversation, but instead call them by their first names. But maybe that's just me?


This reminds me of the Mahouka debacle... i wonder who decided that having Miyuki call him by his first name was a smart decision...
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor


Joined: 05 Jan 2002
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 12:49 pm Reply with quote
Aca Vuksa wrote:
Why is this artlce popped up on Febuary 1, this article 3 month old already.


Manga Answerman is on hiatus this week, we usually run a repeat in those instances.
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Aca Vuksa



Joined: 22 Mar 2018
Posts: 643
Location: Nis, Serbia
PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 12:51 pm Reply with quote
Zac wrote:
Aca Vuksa wrote:
Why is this artlce popped up on Febuary 1, this article 3 month old already.


Manga Answerman is on hiatus this week, we usually run a repeat in those instances.


Oh, i see. Thanks for letting me know.
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Dark Mac



Joined: 17 May 2008
Posts: 313
PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 2:27 pm Reply with quote
Sometimes I feel like literal translations that have unexplained Japanese references aren't a bad thing, since I've gotten used to Japanese culture after so many years of reading manga and watching anime. But then I'll go and read a translation of a Korean or Chinese manga that does the same thing and be utterly confused. By all means, leave in Korean currency and such, but please don't use honorifics. It's just painful to read.
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shabu shabu



Joined: 25 Jan 2019
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Location: Tokyo
PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:36 pm Reply with quote
Translations of foreign works in Japan generally have very precise and straightforward translations. Sometimes it leads to some people not understanding things like American sarcasm, but I think it is a good way to keep true to the culture and style of a country's work which is what a lot of people look for when consuming foreign media.
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Juno016



Joined: 09 Jan 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:35 am Reply with quote
I do contract work as a Japanese translator (I translate both ways, since I'm fluent in "professional" Japanese) and I have had my own personal hangups about a lot of translations over the years, both fanmade and official.

My personal favorite format used to be Del Rey's English. They were known for giving their manga dedicated pages for translation notes AND honorifics at the front, so the reader can grow accustomed to them. Of course, I heard complaints from people who thought it took them out of the work, but on the other hand, a lot of people really liked it because it didn't just expose them to the original intent--it also prepared them for other anime/manga. They did it to all their published manga, so it was consistent and allowed people to get invested in their brand. And ever since, the "literal vs direct" war has always been on my mind in my work.

In regards to that conflict, I always boil it down to one thing:

Who is my audience?

I've translated both anime and manga unofficially for small audiences online, translated official essay works, literary novels, non-fiction documentaries, and most recently (my personal favorite because it's waaaaay up my alley as an illustrator), eroge. In both the manga I translated and the eroge, my audience is very clearly other otaku--people who are very used to otaku-cultured language. I've literally stuck in "baka", "onii-san", "kawaii" and other weeb-celebrated terms in my translation because I had full trust that my audience would understand and get the particular nuance of using "baka" over "idiot" (I often use "baka" only in tsundere context). I've yet to use "nakama" in a translation, mostly because it sounds awkward in every context except One Piece (where the word is the series' entire theme), and I honestly do not see any reason not to translate it, as long as I'm sticking to a consistent group of words to allow the reader to recognize the connection between them.

For anime, you can also take into consideration that your audience can also hear the characters speak. You can still use otaku-centric terms, but in a lot of cases, you don't need to because you know that those who know the terms will pick them up from the audio and subconsciously match it with the script, while those who don't won't feel left out for it. If you're translating for a more mainstream audience, it's better to avoid otaku-centric terminology anyway. If your audience is exclusively otaku, then go wild. =P

On the flip side, most of the work I do is centered toward a more general audience, so I do not have that luxury. In those cases, though, you rarely come across all-powerful otaku characterizations like the tsundere or excessive dialogue with intricate boundaries. Rather, the focus of translation is often on class markers and honorifics. I've kept fluid on this myself, having given a translation for things like "-sama" (Lord, Master, Mr., etc.) occasionally, and other times, dropping it completely if I felt it didn't represent the work or characters well. Other things, such as the humble but inviting way a bar hostess speaks to her customers, is where most of my personal conflicts arise. I often have to sacrifice one part of the meaning or intent in order to bring another part of it out, and I can sometimes translate the same thing in the same work two different ways, depending on the context. Again, the biggest point is knowing your audience.

On a final personal note, I'm not a fan of works that completely mess with the Japanese translation to the point it becomes unrecognizable. For instance, both Fire Emblem Awakening and Fire Emblem Fates had a separate translator and writer and while I don't know what page the translator was on, the writer had a specific agenda (possibly directed by management) to try and re-write multiple characters to seem more interesting to a Western audience. In some cases, this was to avoid common issues with Japanese works being tranlsated (Japanese women tend to be more humble, which is hard to translate into English without making them seem subservient or weaker as characters), while in others, it was to make the work more friendly to a more sensitive audience (I don't approve of censorship, but I also don't approve of inconsequential date rape, accidentally implied or not). The fan reception was split, so a lot of people uncaring of the Japanese intent were actually very happy with the work, but it ended up causing a lot of inconsistencies with characters and unintentionally made a lot of people hate well-written characters whose newly-found attitudes in English were a bit... annoying? Obtrusive? Unattractive? The revelation to the public that the work was hardly dedicated to the author's intent made a lot of fans angry, to the point that death threats were thrown around and staff were [hastily and, as we eventually learned, wrongly] accused of doing things for some sort of political agenda. The trade-off, in my opinion, was pretty severe. I think a more dedicated script would have been far less risky to use and, having played both games in both languages, I highly doubt it would have alienated as many people as the current result did.

My opinion is still mine, though. I may have a lot under my belt, but I do not speak for every work and I think a flexible mind is a healthy one for translation. There is no one better way to translate a work and I'm bound to find a lot of imperfections in professional work in the future. My only hope is that, no matter what path any translator takes, they learn from mistakes and pay attention to their audience. We're not the author and we can only presume what the author wanted to convey, but we have a lot of power, so we should be as careful as possible. Buuuut don't lose sleep over it. Seriously. Translating is stressful. Never translate while tired or "That noise around here kinda sounds like a Heatran's cry" will turn into "I heard someone saw a Heatran around here" and cause a bunch of lovable turds to conjure theories about where mythical Pokemon live. --Pokemon XY, Miare/Lumiose City Plaza denizen.
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leafy sea dragon



Joined: 27 Oct 2009
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 1:09 pm Reply with quote
Juno016 wrote:
On a final personal note, I'm not a fan of works that completely mess with the Japanese translation to the point it becomes unrecognizable. For instance, both Fire Emblem Awakening and Fire Emblem Fates had a separate translator and writer and while I don't know what page the translator was on, the writer had a specific agenda (possibly directed by management) to try and re-write multiple characters to seem more interesting to a Western audience. In some cases, this was to avoid common issues with Japanese works being tranlsated (Japanese women tend to be more humble, which is hard to translate into English without making them seem subservient or weaker as characters), while in others, it was to make the work more friendly to a more sensitive audience (I don't approve of censorship, but I also don't approve of inconsequential date rape, accidentally implied or not). The fan reception was split, so a lot of people uncaring of the Japanese intent were actually very happy with the work, but it ended up causing a lot of inconsistencies with characters and unintentionally made a lot of people hate well-written characters whose newly-found attitudes in English were a bit... annoying? Obtrusive? Unattractive? The revelation to the public that the work was hardly dedicated to the author's intent made a lot of fans angry, to the point that death threats were thrown around and staff were [hastily and, as we eventually learned, wrongly] accused of doing things for some sort of political agenda. The trade-off, in my opinion, was pretty severe. I think a more dedicated script would have been far less risky to use and, having played both games in both languages, I highly doubt it would have alienated as many people as the current result did.


I always found that to be an interesting case. I know almost no Japanese whatsoever (even when I'm watching something subtitled, I don't really pay attention to the words they're saying, and I can't parse out words anyway--every sentence to me sounds like a single very long word), but I do know that Nintendo Treehouse has always played fast and loose, and I found it odd that Fire Emblen Awakening was where people started making a fuss out of it rather than sooner.

They have their reasons too. As far as I know, it began with Paper Mario (for the Nintendo 64), in which their translator was not very good at English and gave out strange, mostly nonsensical and incoherent text, and Nintendo needed someone to take that and make it into something readable. To that end, they hired freelance novelist Nate Bihldorff, and his interpretation of it was so well-liked in English that the game became more popular in the Anglosphere than it was in Japan. (From what I hear of those who played it in Japanese, the dialogue is relatively plain and direct in Japanese, whereas Bihldorff's dialogue is quite flowery and added in many, many subtle references to things, both Mario-related and outside. An interview with Bihldorff in Nintendo Power showed that he repeatedly spoke every line in Paper Mario to himself at his home to make sure each character sounded consistent.) Paper Mario is rewritten so heavily that it's about as far as you can get without changing the core story, and this is something that has applied, more or less, to every Mario game since that has a lot of dialogue. (It is possible that it happened even earlier with Pokémon Red & Blue. Don't quote me on this, but I think they had the same translator for that, Nob Osagawara, and they needed the help of Teresa Lillygren to write the English text.)

But I guess it comes down to what you said, that it's all about your audience. That's probably where the difference lies. Games in franchises like Mario, Zelda, Pokémon, and Smash Bros. have wide mainstream appeal, and your non-otaku (or even anti-otaku) audience won't give one flying finger about what the original Japanese was like, as long as the English version is consistent, easily understood, and compelling. Franchises like Metroid, Punch-Out!!, and Kid Icarus have next to no Japanese appeal at all. These games may even be less popular if the translation/localization was faithful. (I've heard plenty of times from various people I explain the Japanese Pokémon names to who told me they wouldn't play the games if they kept them, for instance.) Fire Emblem is aimed at those who consume a lot of Japanese media, though I have to wonder how intentional that was, considering Awakening sold a lot more than its franchise's predecessors did and I also wonder if Nintendo wanted to strike that mainstream chord they do with their other franchises.

As for me, I don't care if it's faithful or liberal. To me, the best ones are those where, as I'm consuming it, I forget the work was ever translated in the first place because everything comes together and flows together so naturally. The Paper Mario franchise is one of my favorite at Nintendo because Bihldorff pulled that off beautifully. From what I hear, the Trigun anime is of the very faithful sort (and would be an early example of that approach), but I feel the same way.
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Juno016



Joined: 09 Jan 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 4:29 pm Reply with quote
leafy sea dragon wrote:
Fire Emblem is aimed at those who consume a lot of Japanese media, though I have to wonder how intentional that was, considering Awakening sold a lot more than its franchise's predecessors did and I also wonder if Nintendo wanted to strike that mainstream chord they do with their other franchises.


To be honest, that's definitely the case, since the game itself was made to appeal to a wider audience, even in Japan. IT made the difficulty level and design so that Awakening could appeal to both newcomers and to old fans, giving everyone a chance to play. People could play more leisurely if they wanted (by bringing back characters defeated in battle) or do it the classic way (with characters staying defeated for the rest of the playthrough). The original intent was to go out with a bang for the supposed last iteration, but the popularity of the game caught on with a lot of different people, including anime otaku who bought it for the "relationship" aspect of the game. Basically, it was supposed to have something for everyone and it succeeded.

In line with that, the English release was probably made to appeal to the mainstream more, since strategy games like Fire Emblem don't often make that much of a stir in the public. To that extent, it was a success, but I'd argue that had more to do with marketing than the localization, since it also received the greatest marketing the series ever had in the West and a lot of people bought it blind due to the hubbub and slight familiarity from Smash Bros. Still, trying to pull reasons for the numbers would just end as a guessing game. The game and its release was just so different from its predecessors on many levels, so it's hard to say exactly why it sold as well as it did. Fire Emblem Fates' sales are probably more reflective of whether Awakening's game appealed to those who played it than Awakening's own sales.

Still, the way I see it, the translation didn't just change characters or aspects of their past and the story--it also opened up a lot of weird side questions and brought in a few character inconsistencies that hawk-eyed fans jumped on pretty quickly. It may have allowed us to have more appealing characters to the mainstream, but at what cost? Some of the changes were unrelated to appealing characters and were a bit boggling (the most standout example being Fates' infamous "......" support conversation). With my own values as a translator, I just can't see past that. I don't think it opened the game up to more people so much as it tried to make the experience itself better for some while excluding others.

Again, though, I cannot speak for everyone. I have the fortunate luxury of being able to play the games in Japanese, and a lot of the specific changes made affected characters and features I personally enjoyed a lot, so there's nothing strange about the discomfort I felt when these things were changed or removed. There may be others who, if those same aspects were kept in the game, may not have had as enjoyable an experience due to cultural or personal reasons. It's like the old Woosley game translations people still argue about to this day (ie. FFVI). If there is a fun writer aboard the localization, that writer may add to or change the experience for the audience in a way that may improve upon the work for some people. I just don't like it because it ultimately excludes people more interested in the original work who do not find the exotic direction of the translator/writer to be an improvement.
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R315r4z0r



Joined: 30 Aug 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 5:03 pm Reply with quote
You cannot create a standard for a "good" translation.

What makes something a good translation is that it takes the work into consideration.

The genre is the most important thing to consider, followed closely by the setting. And then beyond that, who is watching? Basically, the mood of the series should define what is acceptable as a translation.

For instance, for an anime like Fullmetal Alchemist, you want to try and stay away from Japanese linguistical customs because the setting doesn't take place in Japan. A good translation here would attempt script dialogue that would fit the era (1910 European).

The same is true for something like Cowboy Bebop or Black Lagoon. In those particular cases, something more 'American' makes sense.

On the other hand, you have anime that are very "weebish" in nature (for lack of a better term). A lot of idol anime or cutsie slice-of-life anime. For series like this, I think keeping as much as the Japanese nuances as possible is best. Honorifics, cultural jokes/puns, etc.

Now, there are always exceptions. There are a lot of Japanese set anime that I don't think benefit from a literal translation. In such cases, I think that it takes away from series. For instance, in the Accel World dub, I found it highly annoying that Haruyuki kept calling Kuroyukihime "senpai," simply because of how out of place it felt. However, another example on the opposite side of the fence is the Angle Beats dub where Yui keeps calling Hideki "Senior."

So, it's really just a case-by-case thing.
-know the genre
-know the setting
-know the characters
-know the audience (Edit: This means the people interested in watching, not the people you want to be watching)
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