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whiskeyii



Joined: 29 May 2013
Posts: 1525
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:46 pm Reply with quote
The way I feel about the ending of Rebellion is about the same way I felt about the poorly received Fatal Frame 5 twist. Both series ended on a firmly conclusive note with all the characters more or less content with their situations. And then the writers wanted to make more content and realized they wrote themselves into a thematic corner, so they basically did the literary equivalent of blasting a hole in the wall to escape. And the characters themselves seem to really suffer for it. :/
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jenthehen



Joined: 23 Dec 2008
Posts: 642
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:57 pm Reply with quote
I haven't listened yet, but I really have to look askance at criticisms of rebellion. I can never imagine Homura being happy or even content with the ending of Madoka. She was too obsessed and too upset about what Madoka became and missed her too much. It seems pretty obvious to me that Rebellion is the logical next step / conclusion. While I don't think the Rebellion sequel was NECESSARY (Madoka works well enough as it is, of course - it doesn't feel "incomplete"), I certainly don't think it changed any characterization that was already set up. It's completely understandable, believable, and fits with the story. Rebellion was also well-done and entertaining, so even if you disagree with the characterization, it wasn't a waste.
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immblueversion



Joined: 02 May 2010
Posts: 201
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:07 pm Reply with quote
I'm just wondering why they used a header image with Homura and Goofy. Who turned Madoka Magica into Kingdom Hearts?
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wolf10



Joined: 23 Jan 2016
Posts: 312
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:38 pm Reply with quote
Please reflect on what you were saying about Homura in the Madoka TV series when you finally finish Higurashi.
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lossthief



Joined: 14 Dec 2012
Posts: 475
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:42 pm Reply with quote
immblueversion wrote:
I'm just wondering why they used a header image with Homura and Goofy. Who turned Madoka Magica into Kingdom Hearts?


It's actually a reference to one of the best tweets ever made
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H. Guderian



Joined: 29 Jan 2014
Posts: 1105
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:43 pm Reply with quote
The problem with Homubellion is Homura. While much of the franchise relies on suffering of all cast members in fairly even amounts, Homubellion Flanderizes all of the other characters. Sayaka and Kyouko, my two favorites, have pretty much no point in the story. Charlotte? Seriously? That weird role could have been filled by a new character.

So yeah, Homubellion takes the suffering of everyone in equal, and then lets Homura be the old one to suffer, doubles down, nay triples down on it, and THEN makes it into a superpower.

If you think Homura being a anti-Mahou Shoujo is the best thing ever in the genre, those folks tend to like Homubellion, the character fanfiction that it is. If you were attached the the complete original series and/or any of the other character's stories, it is disappointing.
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Zin5ki
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Joined: 06 Jan 2008
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Location: London, UK
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:45 pm Reply with quote
Gawrsh Homura has finally found a home on ANN. It feels as if worlds are colliding.
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BodaciousSpacePirate
It's Over 9000!It's Over 9000!


Joined: 17 Apr 2015
Posts: 2438
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:27 pm Reply with quote
So, now that we know that we're getting a new Madoka TV anime in 2019 - an adaptation of the plot from the RPG, which by all accounts has a really decent story, but also purportedly goes out of its way to explain why it isn't in continuity with the show or movies - I wonder whether there's going to be any attempt by SHAFT to tease the possible (but unlikely) continuation of the films.
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Greed1914
It's Over 9000!It's Over 9000!


Joined: 28 Oct 2007
Posts: 3070
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:34 pm Reply with quote
On the one hand, I'm glad to finally have the answer to the biggest question I had after watching Rebellion, which was, "Why would you do that?" I can't say I'm too happy to find out that the answer was an effort to make sequels that didn't pan out. I can get behind the idea of just watching the series and leaving it there because I came away from that completely satisfied.
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Sahmbahdeh



Joined: 05 May 2015
Posts: 678
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:07 pm Reply with quote
jenthehen wrote:
I haven't listened yet, but I really have to look askance at criticisms of rebellion. I can never imagine Homura being happy or even content with the ending of Madoka. She was too obsessed and too upset about what Madoka became and missed her too much. It seems pretty obvious to me that Rebellion is the logical next step / conclusion. While I don't think the Rebellion sequel was NECESSARY (Madoka works well enough as it is, of course - it doesn't feel "incomplete"), I certainly don't think it changed any characterization that was already set up. It's completely understandable, believable, and fits with the story. Rebellion was also well-done and entertaining, so even if you disagree with the characterization, it wasn't a waste.


This basically sums up my thoughts about Homura's character in the film. Well said.

I do have to admit, it is a pretty transparent cash-grab, so if one is against that kind of thing on principle, I can understand disappointment, but I think it handles it better than most such examples of that.


With regards to the movie as a whole, I think I have a different, more positive reaction to it because of the way I think about and consume media. I genuinely do not care very much at all about whether a continuation to a piece of media is considered canon or not. I tend to view each piece of media I consume as it's own separate work; in this case, I consider Rebellion a possible/alternate future to the main series, not the definite one. That is, the "Madoka Magica TV series" is one distinct work of art to me, and the "Madoka Magica TV series + Rebellion" is another. So it doesn't really ruin anything for me. Combined with the fact that I find Rebellion to be a thematically valuable and meaningful addition to the story and characters, I really don't have any problem with Rebellion, and find it a really good movie. That said, if I have one major complaint, it's that the ending leaves itself open for a sequel that (up to this point) has never happened, which is disappointing.
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Zeino



Joined: 19 May 2017
Posts: 503
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:32 pm Reply with quote
Put me down in the "Madoka Magica: Rebellion was a mistake." faction. Some anime/manga, you can always do a bit more with but Madoka was defiantly not one of them. The series was a complete and perfectly-crafted circle of a story. A compelling tale of hope overcoming tragedy that deserved every bit of it's popularity and acclaim. Rebellion was a cynical cash grab that broke so much in the desire to simply have more.

It pisses on it's own thematic message, character assassinated Homura (No, I don't buy all those fan analysis rationalizing her decisions here as perfectly in-character.) and ultimately led to nothing in the end. I think it's telling that Studio Shaft have basically done little with it after 2013 and that Urobuchi has very much moved on to other things. They basically have no real ideas left for it.

So yeah, I hate Rebellion.
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Ethe



Joined: 10 Jun 2017
Posts: 112
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:04 pm Reply with quote
I liked the narrative shift in Rebellion. Whereas the TV series was predominantly story-driven, the movie has a character driven story, and as an exploration of Homura's character, it accomplished what it set out to do wonderfully.

Let me just say this right off the bat: I loved everything about the ending of Rebellion. Most people who dislike the movie seem to agree that the twist came out of nowhere, but not only was it foreshadowed in the movie itself (as Jacob points out at 9:45), but it was also foreshadowed by everything we know about Homura's character from the TV show, namely her mental state: this is a girl who went trough countless timelines to try and save the one she loves, but every single time she failed and had to see her loved one die right in front of her because of her inability to change her fate no matter how hard she tried. Heck, one time she had to kill Madoka herself. To go through that ordeal over and over again (almost a hundred times, to be precise) ...it makes you wonder just what kind of psychological impact that might have on Homura. I honestly finished the show amazed by the fact that she didn't lose all sanity after everything that happened.

But the movie doesn't forget about all that Homura had to go through and pretty much confirms that she's indeed a mentally unstable individual (understandably so), which is why everything in the ending just clicked for me. And it would've been so easy to portray Homura as outright crazy for the shock of it, but I'm glad they didn't go that way. Instead, they make sure to show us the reasoning behind Homura's actions and the fact that she knows what she's doing isn't right (or is it...? more on that in a second).

That's where the hair-braiding scene comes into play. We all know what happens in that scene, but what I'd like to point out is the fact that, when Madoka confesses to Homura that she would never do something as selfless as sacrifice herself for the greater good, Homura doesn't take Madoka's confession as a way to convince herself that what's she's gonna do at the end of the movie is justified. On the contrary, she outright disagrees with Madoka and assures her that she's stronger and kinder than she think she is. She knows Madoka knew what she was getting herself into when she made her wish, and she knows she would never regret that wish, but in the end she decides to bring her back fully aware that what she's doing goes against what Madoka truly wanted. She's not ignorant or in denial.

And here's where love to take sides: on one hand, you have the "Homura's a terrible person" faction, and on the other hand you have the "Homura did nothing wrong" faction. In reality, things aren't so black and white, and that's the point that I believe the movie is trying to make. We know that Homura brings Madoka back because she thinks no one should have to shoulder such a heavy burden. But even if she brings Madoka back out of selflessness, and even if she kept the Law of Cycles intact, at the same time we know this girl is just so terribly damaged and unstable that you can't help but question her every action and the true nature of her "love", and at the end of the day it is undeniable that she is going against Madoka's will and wishes. Homura's decision is both incredibly selfless and incredibly selfish, and this, at least to me, makes her character and the ending as a whole fascinating.

(I've seen some people argue that Homura is evil and there's no other way around it because she herself says so at the end, but I think that line shouldn't be taken so literally. She's pretty much telling Sayaka "Wanna know what I am? Since I took down a god, I guess you'd have enough of a reason to call me "evil" if that's what you want. Not that I care")

Anyway, so where do things go from here? I have no fricking clue, and I love that. I love not knowing where this story is headed, but I'm more than eager to find out.

This doesn't mean I don't have my complains about the movie. Like most people, I thought Nagisa was a pointless character, and I never bought the reason they gave us for her inclusion in the story. They simply added her because people kept shipping Mami and Charlotte and they needed new merchandise to sell.

I also thought that, story-wise, the fight between Mami and Homura was unnecessary. Don't get me wrong, it was absolutely badass and all that, but every time I rewatch Rebellion and I get to that part, I ask myself "Are these two really trying to kill each other over a dumb misunderstanding?". You know the only reason that fight exists is because they wanted a cool action sequence at the middle-point of the movie.

Despite these complaints, I love Rebellion to bits. Yes, the TV series wrapped up perfectly and the movie didn't need to exist, but I'm glad it does and that it further consolidated Homura as my absolute favourite anime character of all time. Similarly...

lossthief wrote:
immblueversion wrote:
I'm just wondering why they used a header image with Homura and Goofy. Who turned Madoka Magica into Kingdom Hearts?


It's actually a reference to one of the best tweets ever made


...this is now my new favourite thing on the internet. Right next to this.
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OtherSideofSky



Joined: 19 May 2016
Posts: 46
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 11:18 pm Reply with quote
What's the point of discussing Urobuchi's evolution as a writer if you don't talk about any of his novels or his hilariously trashy VNs?
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Dragonsandphoenix



Joined: 21 Jan 2015
Posts: 59
Location: Malaysia
PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:18 am Reply with quote
lossthief wrote:
immblueversion wrote:
I'm just wondering why they used a header image with Homura and Goofy. Who turned Madoka Magica into Kingdom Hearts?


It's actually a reference to one of the best tweets ever made


I thank you from the bottom of my heart for reminding me that this exists.
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Kicksville



Joined: 20 Nov 2010
Posts: 566
PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2018 3:22 am Reply with quote
whiskeyii wrote:
The way I feel about the ending of Rebellion is about the same way I felt about the poorly received Fatal Frame 5 twist. Both series ended on a firmly conclusive note with all the characters more or less content with their situations. And then the writers wanted to make more content and realized they wrote themselves into a thematic corner, so they basically did the literary equivalent of blasting a hole in the wall to escape. And the characters themselves seem to really suffer for it. :/

If I may, I'd like to suggest that even if it is disliked, the Rebellion ending is at least better than what Fatal Frame 5 did, seeing as how that involves spoiler[GHOST INCEST MARRIAGE WITH GHOST INCEST BABIES WHAT THE HELL WHAT THE HELL WAS THAT OH MY GOD]
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