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invalidname
Get off my lawn!Get off my lawn!


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:35 pm Reply with quote
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As their intent was to make a very mainstream product for American release

And it apparently worked. Kiki's Delivery Service would be named the best video of the year in a year-end article in Entertainment Weekly magazine.

(Of course, that's the same magazine that a few years later would declare that anime "is not about story" and that you should not "expect it to make much sense", in their review of the first Fullmetal Alchemist movie, so I don't know how I feel about a compliment from them.)
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Shiflan



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:45 pm Reply with quote
invalidname wrote:

(Of course, that's the same magazine that a few years later would declare that anime "is not about story" and that you should not "expect it to make much sense", in their review of the first Fullmetal Alchemist movie, so I don't know how I feel about a compliment from them.)


While I do disagree about a claim that "anime is never about the story", I don't take that as putting down anime either. I think a great deal of anime can provide a lot of enjoyment as well as profound insight from things which have nothing whatsoever to do with the plot. Plot is just one of many aspects of anime (or movies, TV, books, etc), and often times the plot really doesn't matter at all. That's not a pejorative, it's just a fact. Sometimes the journey is more important than the destination.
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Cardcaptor Takato



Joined: 27 Jan 2018
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:57 pm Reply with quote
Shiflan wrote:


It's meant to be symbolism for the fact that she is growing up, which is the whole point of the movie's plot. It's a rite of passage to adulthood.

I can't speak for everyone of course, but I find that I like movies with either sad or bittersweet endings better than happy ones. Don't get me wrong: happy endings are happy, and that's nice. But that emotional impact is short lived. Once it's made clear that "everyone lived happily ever after" there's nothing to be concerned about anymore. But when there's a bit of bittersweet to it that makes the impact linger a lot more.
I understand it's supposed to be symbolic. I just feel like I don't understand why it needs to be symbolic. Kiki's is one of my favorite Ghibli movies but making Kiki choose between her romance with Tombo or being able to talk to Jiji seemed like an arbitrary sacrifice she shouldn't have had to given up. Apparently the author of the original novel wasn't too pleased with this decision either, so in this regard, Disney's first edition of the dub was actually more faithful to the author's vision. it also doesn't make sense to me why Kiki would lose this one aspect of her powers as opposed to all her magic and why no one in her family told her this is something that would happen.
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willag
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:28 pm Reply with quote
I've refused to buy the blurays of Kiki's Delivery Service and Castle in the Sky because they don't have the original Disney tracks. I understand wanting to keep with the spirit of the original, but I want to at least have the option to watch the version I fell in love with.

With Kiki, I love Phil Hartman's Jiji, and removing any of his ad-libbed lines is what most disappoints me. Especially since he passed away soon after recording and the movie was released posthumously. His version of Jiji is my favorite character (I own a decent amount of Jiji merch). And I personally prefer the ending where Kiki can still hear him - I don't think it takes away from the message about growing up, and I feel the mood better fits with the rest of the film (also, if Jiji was my cat and I lost the ability to talk to him, I'd find that an utter travesty to not be able to listen to his wise cracks again).

I also love Sydney Forest's songs and the additional changes to the soundtrack, as well. I've since listened to the Japanese dub, and while I can appreciate it and Miyazaki's vision, Disney's original dub will always be my favorite.

As for Castle is the Sky, the re-orchestrated score from Joe Hisashi in the 2003 DVD is f**king gorgeous. I also enjoy the added humorous lines from the pirates. But the 2010 rerelease removed all of that. However, while Disney's blurays never added the scores back in, GKIDs' recent bluray release includes the re-orchestrated score from Joe Hisashi as a 2nd dub track. The dialogue was never changed back, but at least they added the music back. Despite the release not being what I prefer, I'm willing to buy GKID's bluray release of Castle in the Sky since the score change was what most bothered me.

Regardless, I'm not going to be parting from my 2003 DVDs until a bluray release comes out that includes the versions I love.
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ZeetherKID77



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:58 pm Reply with quote
I didn't mind most of the new music for Laputa (I saw the Fathom screening before Thanksgiving) but I want to see it with the original score, because the rerecorded score actually got a little too bombastic at times and occasionally felt like every scene had to be punctuated by some form of music. It wasn't bad, just a little overbearing at times.

Guess I have to get that GKIDS bluray at some point.
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FLCLGainax



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:06 pm Reply with quote
I was under the impression Disney's music additions could have also been reversed due to it being easier for Ghibli to clear the dub for other territories. While some of the music used may be public domain in the US, like "In the Hall of the Mountain King", there's no telling whether its use would run into problems elsewhere. It's best they control all the music.

Personally, I prefer Kiki's dub with minimalist music and atmosphere. The only issue with Disney's re-release is the tinny audio quality, which hasn't been fixed (it also appears on subsequent and overseas releases). What's up with that? It sounds like they ran the voices through filtering software. Confused


Last edited by FLCLGainax on Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:12 pm; edited 1 time in total
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getchman
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:10 pm Reply with quote
Zof wrote:
Another Example:

If you watch Sakura Quest in Japanese, you get the amazing ending song that makes tears stream out of your eyes when she's leaving on the train. If you watch the English version, you get a shitty pop sounding shit song that ruins the ending.


Just checked both audio tracks on my BD for part 2 and flipped between the simuldub and finalized uncut English option on Funi's website, and its the same song for all of them. Nothing at all what you saying you heard
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Shiflan



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:24 pm Reply with quote
FLCLGainax wrote:
The only issue with Disney's re-release is the tinny audio quality, which hasn't been fixed (it also appears on subsequent and overseas releases). What's up with that? It sounds like they ran the voices through filtering software. Confused


Yes, I heard that too. Awful. I couldn't tell you what they did to it exactly, but it's clearly been processed at some point. 3 guesses:
-dynamic range compression and/or compression both can cause that sound, and both are often used.
- and poor quality encoding somewhere along the way.
-bad EQ

The low end is not as good as the Japanese audio either. At least that's what I hear. And it's just as clear on cheapo computer speakers as it is on my high end system.
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FLCLGainax



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:24 pm Reply with quote
Shiflan wrote:

Posts Sometimes wrote:
There's also the even older English dub from Streamline Pictures, which was never officially released outside Japan. Supposedly Disney used that script as the base for their dub rather than doing their own translation, which ended up backfiring on them when they later reused it for their subtitled releases and didn't notice that it had changed several minor lines throughout the film.


I'm surprised to hear that. Streamline was infamous for changing dialogue among fans, so it's shocking that someone in the business wasn't aware of that sort of thing.

I've seen the Streamline dub and it's closer to the Japanese version compared to Disney's. However, Carl Macek made adjustments to better fit the lip-flaps which do not work as a subtitle translation.
Specifically the scene where Kiki is bored in the cafe and describes working there "day after day" in the Japanese version. In the dub, she says "Pancakes will make me fat, fat, fat!!". This works for the lip sync, but looks awkward when being used as an aid for the Japanese audio.
I was surprised GKIDS was not able to get Ghibli to commission a fresh subtitle translation. It would have had been a reason to upgrade!


Last edited by FLCLGainax on Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Shiflan



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:34 pm Reply with quote
FLCLGainax wrote:

I've seen the Streamline dub and it's closer to the Japanese version compared to Disney's. However, Carl Macek made adjustments to better fit the lip-flaps which do not work as a subtitle translation.


I don't know how well today's fans recall Macek, but he was known as "Carl the Butcher" for a reason back in the 90's (and probably before then). You would think his reputation would proceed him among industry professionals and someone would have checked for these sorts of things. Honestly I can't complain about that change very much, it's far less than expected.
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PurpleWarrior13



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:39 pm Reply with quote
Castle in the Sky's revised score was used for the recent Fathom Events screenings and is an alternate audio on GKIDS/Shout! Factory's new Blu-ray (Disney's edition only has the original score). All of the extra lines added to that dub are still missing though.
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FLCLGainax



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:43 pm Reply with quote
Shiflan wrote:
FLCLGainax wrote:

I've seen the Streamline dub and it's closer to the Japanese version compared to Disney's. However, Carl Macek made adjustments to better fit the lip-flaps which do not work as a subtitle translation.


I don't know how well today's fans recall Macek, but he was known as "Carl the Butcher" for a reason back in the 90's (and probably before then). You would think his reputation would proceed him among industry professionals and someone would have checked for these sorts of things. Honestly I can't complain about that change very much, it's far less than expected.
Putting his localization choices on other anime aside, I thought his work on Kiki was pretty much a straight dub as far as early '90s dubs are concerned.
It's kind of a mystery why his dubs of Totoro and Kiki were more faithful than a lot of Streamline's other dubs.


Last edited by FLCLGainax on Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:59 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Posts Sometimes



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:52 pm Reply with quote
Shiflan wrote:
FLCLGainax wrote:

I've seen the Streamline dub and it's closer to the Japanese version compared to Disney's. However, Carl Macek made adjustments to better fit the lip-flaps which do not work as a subtitle translation.


I don't know how well today's fans recall Macek, but he was known as "Carl the Butcher" for a reason back in the 90's (and probably before then). You would think his reputation would proceed him among industry professionals and someone would have checked for these sorts of things. Honestly I can't complain about that change very much, it's far less than expected.

To be fair, Disney probably wouldn't have had many anime industry people on staff (this being their first anime dub), and Macek's Ghibli dubs are pretty good work for the time. Besides, they may not have even known Streamline did that translation; most sources say Disney got it directly from Ghibli.
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jsevakis
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:11 pm Reply with quote
EricJ2 wrote:
The '98 VHS dub predated the entire '99 Ghibli deal, and that and Castle in the Sky were originally one-offs for Disney. (Hence the use of standard anime-dub director Jack Fletcher, who'd dubbed Pioneer's Tenchi titles, rather than John Lasseter's labors-of-love after the deal.)

I’m sorry, but that’s simply not true. I was around (and was just starting ANN) at that time, and the Disney-Ghibli overall deal was announced over a year before anything came out. And to prove it, Mononoke’s dub was also directed by Fletcher, and that didn’t come out for another year and change after that. Miyazaki doubled down on the “no cuts” rule at that point because Mononoke’s release was put under Miramax, which was owned by Disney but run by a certain Harvey Weinstein. At the time, he was known as “scissorhands” because of how he insisted on recurring the foreign films he released.
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EricJ2



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:35 pm Reply with quote
willag wrote:
I've refused to buy the blurays of Kiki's Delivery Service and Castle in the Sky because they don't have the original Disney tracks. I understand wanting to keep with the spirit of the original, but I want to at least have the option to watch the version I fell in love with.
Regardless, I'm not going to be parting from my 2003 DVDs until a bluray release comes out that includes the versions I love.


And you're NOT GOING TO GET ONE, because, as we've spent the entire article and thread saying, the decision was Ghibli's, not Disney's.
Which precludes the idea that "Maybe they'll allow GKids to use it!"...Or maybe they won't. For the same reasons.

Hey, I liked it better too. And Discotek can use both the Manga and the Streamline dub of "Castle of Cagliostro" on their Blu-ray because it wasn't a Studio Ghibli film--
But if you're going to be Loyal to Ghibli, that's going to have to mean playing by the rules.

FLCLGainax wrote:
Quote:
Streamline was infamous for changing dialogue among fans, so it's shocking that someone in the business wasn't aware of that sort of thing.

I've seen the Streamline dub and it's closer to the Japanese version compared to Disney's. However, Carl Macek made adjustments to better fit the lip-flaps which do not work as a subtitle translation.
Specifically the scene where Kiki is bored in the cafe and describes working there "day after day" in the Japanese version. In the dub, she says "Pancakes will make me fat, fat, fat!!".


Or the scene where Kiki and Jiji are arriving into town by train, she wonders if the town already has a witch of its own, and in the Japanese, Jiji replies "Maaaa nee." ("Mayyy-be.") The undiscriminating Carl changed it to "Howww should IIIII know?"
Well, at least it fit.

jsevakis wrote:
And to prove it, Mononoke’s dub was also directed by Fletcher, and that didn’t come out for another year and change after that. Miyazaki doubled down on the “no cuts” rule at that point because Mononoke’s release was put under Miramax, which was owned by Disney but run by a certain Harvey Weinstein. At the time, he was known as “scissorhands” because of how he insisted on recurring the foreign films he released.


Oh, right, darn, forgot about Fletcher dubbing Mononoke. (But then, I've tried to forget about Mononoke and its theatrical run in general. Razz )
The Lasseter Labors of Love didn't start until "Spirited Away", after the Japanese box-office "convinced" Disney to get back in on the deal after Mononoke's bad US theater run, and the US Ghibli loyalists were all in for pushing Disney back onto the horse.

And yes, Miramax was pretty infamous for the US cuts, as the fans of Stephen Chow's "Shaolin Soccer" also had some complaints about Miramax's stateside version two years later.
Still, the Roger Corman/"Warriors of the Wind" story makes better copy.


Last edited by EricJ2 on Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:30 am; edited 1 time in total
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