Forum - View topicI am an Anime Feminist. Ask Me Anything
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SailorTralfamadore
 Posts: 499 Location: Keep Austin Weeb |
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I mean, "Love Potion no. 9" in its very first verse reflects cultural attitudes about Romani people and uses a racial slur to refer to one of them ("g*psy") so there you go.
Teddy bears themselves are named after an American president, Theodore Roosevelt. I could do this all day, but like I said above, I think you guys are missing that there's a difference between "being offended and upset by everything and reading too much into things" and doing what we're doing which is insisting that all things have a historical and cultural context... which is the basis of entire academic fields, for one. As I explained, this is basically the whole reason that we teach music history and other forms of art history the way that we do. The idea that people are products of their times and places is also a pretty well-accepted way of approaching history by historians across cultural fields. Also like, some of us find discovering and discussing the social and political contexts around works of art enjoyable, like any other art analysis. I get frustrated by the assumption that it naturally follows that if you notice this you're "offended" by it. As well as the assumption that if you are, that automatically makes your criticism less worthy or valuable. Anyway, I think the two links that I provide in the previous post explain all this better than I could. |
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louis6578
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Well, okay. This clarifies things, but I still think it's understandable that people would misunderstand what she meant at first when she said all art is political.
All art is certainly a product of the culture surrounding it. That much is obvious. Politics is part of that culture, so yeah. All art is political. But if that's the point we're getting across, and not "all art is pushing an agenda," then doesn't it feel a bit redundant and obvious in retrospect, or am I missing something? |
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all-tsun-and-no-dere
ANN Reviewer
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My good dude, I quite literally said exactly that in my first post on the subject. I spent an hour writing that post and you didn’t even read it. (I will edit this with more soon but just. Are you serious here.) |
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lossthief
ANN Reviewer
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I get where you're coming from here, but I think it's important to compartmentalize this stuff sometimes. Art is political by its nature, but that doesn't mean you have to engage with every piece of art you encounter through every possible political lens. To use a personal example, there's been some talk online about Captain Marvel having a very blatant advertisement for the US Air Force attached in front of its theater showings, and how that informs/connects with the film's portrayal of the US military within itself and the larger MCU. And while that is a totally valid discussion to have, it's also one I have basically 0 interest in contributing to. I'm here to watch Brie Larson shoot lasers out of her hands set to No Doubt and Garbage songs. I also think it's worth mentioning that being aware of a piece of art's politics isn't the same as condemning it. I love the Macross franchise in part because of its (sometimes implied, sometimes overt) political themes and how it grapples with them. It's fun to sit down with a piece of work and try to figure out what it has to say about its subject matter. How does it frame or portray different conflicts or dilemmas? How does it feel - and consequently, how does it want me, the viewer, to feel - about the building blocks it's used to construct itself? There's nothing wrong with a more passive viewing experience, but I think there's a tendency when having these discussions to conflate criticism or analysis with purely negative engagement. |
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Alan45
 Village Elder Posts: 9839 Location: Virginia |
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@SailorTralfamadore
You are really reaching for those. Which is sort of my point. Essentially you are saying that all art is political because all human activity is political. At that point it ceases to have any meaning at all. I said nothing about being offended by political meanings, I just find it pointless. For most art, especially popular entertainment, trying to find a political meaning is just an exercise in futility. Once you have found it, what does it mean? If all you can come up with is trivia or that the author/artist's work is a reflection of his society, just what have you proved, that you can see further into a stone wall than others? |
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Redbeard 101
Oscar the Grouch
Forums Superstar  Posts: 16935 |
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It damn well better be No Doubt and not her solo stuff. If I see Cpt Marvel flying around to hollaback girl I'm walking out. Jokes aside (only half joking above, but I won't go off on that super OT tangent about No/Doubt vs Gwen solor or Black Eyed Peas vs Fergy solo) I get what you're saying about compartmentalizing more. To expand a bit more on what I said earlier about "everything being political" and just wanting to enjoy a movie for example, the thing that ruins so many pieces of art or entertainment for me are the uber aggressive and loud asshats. I obviously disagree to a point here with you guys, that's fine. I understand where your opinions are coming from and being reviewers/columnists you also have a different perspective I don't have to dissect things for my job. Well, not media anyways. I can deal with differences in opinion. What I am tired of dealing with are the preachers. These in your face aggressive tv evangelist like people who are determined to hammer some minute or obscure point down your throats. Then if you disagree you're either a brain dead neanderthal or some sort of pompous fascist. All because you didn't get the hidden meaning in your anime tiddies echi show for example. So yes, compartmentalizing more would be a good thing. Part of the problem for me I think is the phrase itself "all art is political". It sends (to me) a very definitive, and more curt, message. In my personal experiences the majority of people who have said that have used that phrase as a springboard to head into that aforementioned tv evangelist land. Perhaps the phrase could be re-worded to come off as not as aggressive. Perhaps I've just had enough bad experiences I'm quicker to assume the worst. Perhaps it's also just late and I am tired as hell so I'm stopping here tonight. |
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all-tsun-and-no-dere
ANN Reviewer
Posts: 605 |
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I'm so sorry! I actually wrote a whole response right after your initial post, but a forum error ate it and then I got swept up in this whole "art is political" thing. Anyway, yes, there is an interpretive element to it, but I don't think, "Would a child notice it?" is really an effective metric. You used Endro as an example, but Endro wasn't made for a young audience. It's a late-night series and thus is aimed at adults, despite the cutesy art, and their outfits are full of sexualized signifiers that adults would pick up on. Yusha's outfit is structured like something you'd buy from a lingerie store. Mei has stockings with garters. Their little hip... suspender... thingies wouldn't serve any practical purpose and mostly look like g-strings poking out from low-slung bottoms. (Interestingly, both character designers and the director are women, and I know Namori has plenty of female fans.) Your other example of .hack//sign is interesting as well, because I never thought of the series having fan service at all! While yes, Crim and Bear don't wear shirts and Mimiru has bikini armor, the framing around them is never sexual. The camera doesn't linger on their bodies, and since it's all pretty standard MMORPG character designs, it never really stood out in the same way Endro's designs do (though I haven't watched the show in about 15 years so I could be totally wrong). Now, you could say plenty about the context of bikini armor being so normalized that it didn't even strike me as sexual but calling it fan service on that alone is a stretch.
Media literacy - the ability to able to critically understand the nature, techniques and impacts of media messages and productions - is fast becoming one of the most vital skills in the world today, and very few people have developed it. It's not taught in most schools - at least, not in the US. This site offers a great primer on what it is and why it's important: http://mediasmarts.ca/digital-media-literacy/general-information/digital-media-literacy-fundamentals/media-literacy-fundamentals I have a panel that I do where I go into ways of examining how women are represented in anime and in stories in general, and I've had people tell me it really changed the way they look at fiction. But you want to know why I do it, more than anything else? The realest, truest, most genuine reason I keep doing it, day after day? Because I enjoy it. I was the big dork who enjoyed writing papers in college. I've always been good at critical thinking and I got 5's on my English Literature and English Language and Composition AP exams, and I took English classes for fun in college despite them not being related to my degree. I find analyzing narratives to be intellectually stimulating and gratifying, and I wanted an outlet for that after I wasn't in school anymore. Apparently, my work resonated with other people because it has opened a lot of doors for me. I've made a ton of like-minded friends, have a decent side income as a freelance writer and editor, and regularly travel to conventions to put on panels. I had coffee with Susan Napier, one of the top anime scholars in the US, because she enjoyed my panel. I've interviewed mangaka whose works I've enjoyed since I was a teenager and some of anime's top directors. All because one day I decided I needed a new project and that project would be a feminist anime blog. That's just kind of who I am. My bachelor's degree is in linguistics and I haven't used it professionally at all, but I love having the lens of understanding the building blocks of language as one way I experience the world. Critical thinking and intellectual curiosity can be its own reward. I don't approach every single thing I watch and read with the mentality of, "What is this really saying?" I'm enjoying the heck out of rewatching Toradora but I'm not really engaging in a close reading of it other than that I love the mild subversiveness of the nurturing, domestic boyfriend and the emotional disaster girlfriend. I don't feel the need to dig deeper. |
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Alan45
Village Elder Posts: 9839 Location: Virginia |
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@all-tsun-and-no-dere
That you like that sort of thing is fine, what ever floats your boat. I don't. My personal feeling at that too much analysis of genre fiction tends to suck all the fun out of it. The more light weight the entertainment the easier it is to ruin. Most manga, light novels and the anime based on them were intended to give the consumer a few hours of entertainment and the author a few bucks (and because writers can't help but write). I feel the same about English language genre entertainment but we are in an anime forum. It wasn't intended to be great literature and falls apart like a spider web if examined to closely. if you want to analyze the politics of some of the more egregious manga that is fine. There are some that are so obvious that even I notice. However, I think that sweeping statements like "all art is political" serves no useful purpose and tends to undermine your main purpose in analyzing works that need it. It is saying water is wet when you want to discuss the pollution of specific streams. I don't think it is required of everyone that they analyze everything they read or watch. That is not anti intellectual. It is possible to compartmentalize things to where you think deeply about some subjects and not about others. I come to anime and manga to get away from the world not to bring it with me. |
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louis6578
Posts: 1861 |
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^
This times a billion. Anime is something you consume when you're bored and have free time to burn. Even the ones that are highly acclaimed aren't necessarily for intellectual analysis. Cowboy Bebop is a fun action/comedy with relatable characters who fulfill a sort of wish-fulfillment for any aspiring cool adult. Ghost in the Shell has some sexual appeal fanservice and is a thrilling series/film about a cyborg fighting criminals with robot tech that outclasses her own, leaving the audience wondering how she outsmarts them and beats the bad guys. Legend of the Galactic Heroes is about attractive pretty boys sticking it to the establishment and rising through the ranks like crazy despite the aristocracy's attempts to undermine them, creating a sort of wish-fulfillment for anyone who hates being bossed around. These are just a few "intellectual" anime that I've thought of where, even if you're not really understanding the deeper themes, you can get something fun out of it that you often can't get from real life. Hell, an example of myself enjoying an anime whose themes and inner messages I hate is Naruto. I love Naruto's fights, its supporting cast, and a lot of the villains, but I utterly hate that it tries to make the audience feel validated in the message that "even a dropout can become the best at something if he works hard," yet constantly undermines this message through having Naruto be born the most privileged, predestined for greatness child in the universe. There are some anime where an intellectual lens might ruin your enjoyment of the simpler things, or one's own personal ethics could cloud their enjoyment of a series. |
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all-tsun-and-no-dere
ANN Reviewer
Posts: 605 |
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If you don’t want to engage on that level, that’s your prerogative. This isn’t school, I’m not your teacher, and no one is going to grade you on whether or not you understand the political implications of the work. Ultimately, I don’t care whether or not you’re interested in the kind of work I do, but I do find it a bit rude of you to come into the thread and tell me exactly how uninterested you are.
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Alan45
Village Elder Posts: 9839 Location: Virginia |
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@all-tsun-and-no-dere
Speaking for myself, I wasn't trying to be rude and I certainly wasn't trying to denigrate the type of work you do. I often find it interesting to read even if I don't care to engage in it myself. However, you made the some what provocative statement that all art is political. I was simply trying to emphasize that not ever one is the same at that many people don't see it that way. You laid that concept out there and asked for responses, this was mine. People that are into literary analysis tend to give off the vibe that this is the only proper way to approach entertainment and that there is something wrong or lacking in those who don't. It is likely unintentional but it is there. Your acknowledge that there are other appropriate ways of looking at entertainment is all I was trying to obtain. It is somewhat like higher mathematics, some struggle with it until they get out of school, others learn it and use it as a tool and later in life gradually lose those aspects that don't pertain to their employment or interests. For a small select group mathematics is an end in itself, something that (to use a current phrase) sparks joy. If I understand your prior posts, the analysis of media sparks joy with you. That is fine, but it puts you into a select group. For many others it doesn't. |
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all-tsun-and-no-dere
ANN Reviewer
Posts: 605 |
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I will admit, this discussion has become extremely frustrating for me in places. I created it because I wanted a place where I could engage in good faith with people who might or might not agree with me. I'm putting effort and thought into my posts answering questions, only for the people I'm responding to not actually reading my answers. @louis6578, I made a point of saying in every single post that "all art is political" does not mean "all art has an agenda" but it was only after several other (mostly male) people including writers for the site and forum moderators went over it, you called it "obvious" and talked about me in third person, implying that I never brought that up.
I'm going to assume this was all unintentional and not done specifically to make me feel ignored, but do you understand how infuriating that is? @Alan45 I don't think everyone has to engage in epistemiological debate over Foucaultian vs Lacanian readings of the text, but I do think the simple ability to notice patterns in media representation and bias is important, because that has echoes in real life. Media affects how we interpret the world, and everyone should have some basic awareness of that. To draw on your math analogy (which tbh I agree with), it's like being able to use ratios vs knowing how to... I don't even know what high level math does, I'm not a math person. Using ratios has a lot of practical everyday life functions. Media literacy is an essential skill, even if you're not actively using it all the time. Like.. just check out these slide from a panel I did as an example. They were meant to be accompanied by a presentation so they're pretty basic and it'll take you ten minutes to scroll through. https://heroineproblem.com/2017/04/19/is-this-feminist-or-not-ways-of-talking-about-women-in-anime/ |
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SailorTralfamadore
Posts: 499 Location: Keep Austin Weeb |
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Is it a reach? The "Love Potion no. 9" thing is exactly the sort of thing that I would discuss in my music history class if the song came up. (Full disclosure for those who aren't aware: I'm a Ph.D. student in musicology, and I work as a teaching assistant in college music history courses.) Also, its best-known version is by The Searchers, who were part of the British Invasion... there's definitely a political discussion to be had about the phenomenon of British bands at the time becoming popular in the U.S. through remakes of songs by American artists and songwriters (it was written by Leiber and Stoller, who most famously wrote a bunch of hits for Elvis. You can read about them here). There are definitely political dimensions you can take in analyzing the British Invasion and why it took off so dramatically when it did. Trivia isn't nothing, and in academic music analysis it's a huge part of how we discuss this stuff. After all, the way that a song is marketed, the cultural associations it draws on, etc. are a big part of why particular songs become popular and influential and others don't. It's impossible to discuss their impact without including those factors, including ones that might make it "political." Because as much as I also enjoy analyzing music for its musical features (I studied composition in undergrad for a reason), those often honestly have very little to do with why music -- especially popular music -- takes off compared to cultural factors. Just because you're not familiar with a particular kind of interpretation doesn't mean that it's "reaching." But these discussions are pretty standard for music critics and academics. That's also the place where Caitlin is coming from in discussing the political dimensions of anime and other forms of media. As she said, that doesn't mean that you have to be interested in doing that... but it's helpful for us if people would recognize that that's what we're doing when we do it, rather than have it dismissed as something that it isn't. |
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Alan45
Village Elder Posts: 9839 Location: Virginia |
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@all-tsun-and-no-dere
I realize that media does have messages, some intended and some not. However, unless they are hitting me over the head with it, I'll give it a pass. Unless the message is both toxic and influential I don't really feel it must be addressed. i looked at your slides and found them fairly unexceptional. With regard to your comment on Shirobaka, I think that reflects either anime artistic conventions or the artistic limitations of the character designer more than an attempt to say that all young women look alike. I have to admit that of the 28 anime listed on the final slide (you listed Utena twice) I've only seen ten. Eleven if you count Paradise Kiss which I read but did not watch. As to feminism as an issue, any interest I have is theoretical. I don't experience it as an emotional issue. As an older white male I have no opinions on the subject that I would be silly enough to express. @SailorTralfamadore My reference to Love Potion #9 was to the 1959 version by the Clovers, I was 13 or 14 at the time depending on what month it came out. Other songs I thought about citing were Charlie Brown by the Coasters or The Flying Purple People Eater. I'm certain there is a great deal to say about the British Invasion but I do think the Searchers would be more of a footnote in that discussion. I sort of missed the British Invasion myself. Maybe missed is the wrong word, it was everywhere, you couldn't avoid hearing it. However, I got into folk music about the time Tom Dooley by the Kingston Trio came out. By the time the Beatles and company showed up I was heavily into folk. The stuff I bought and voluntarily listened to was people like Tom Rush, Ian and Sylvia, Judy Collins, Bob Dylan and Joan Baez. And yes, a lot of that was political, overtly so, but the songs that have stuck with me were the old ones. I eventually tapered out of that scene with people like Simon and Garfunkel, The Lovin' Spoonful and Linda Ronstadt. Now I mostly listen to the ringing in my ears. 
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Redbeard 101
Oscar the Grouch
Forums Superstar Posts: 16935 |
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About as much as being referred to by my gender (and also in the 3rd person technically as well) in such a manner as if that has a single thing to do with my responses and thoughts on this current topic. Anymore than yours does as a woman, as opposed to simply being a writer/columnists answering questions. edit: To provide an example...if I had said something along the lines of, "the posters who agree with this (mostly female) yadda yadda yadda......" I bet I'd be hearing about it rather quickly. We're discussing art being political or not. Not anything related to gender. |
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