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Answerman - Are Artists Apologizing and Self-Censoring More These Days?


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Chrono1000





PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2018 1:51 pm Reply with quote
There is an important difference between changes that are done by the author to make the fans happy and the censorship that is imposed on them by people that care nothing about their work. I think what is most spiteful is the censorship that is imposed by people who would never watch a show but still want it censored because it contains things that they dislike. I have seen people on social media say that they want Sword Art Online Alicization to be more censored while also saying that they would never watch an episode of it. I used to see this fake moral outrage only with ecchi shows but recently violence is also sufficient for some people to demand censorship. With the thousands of animated kids shows made every decade in the western world there are already plenty of shows that are family friendly.
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nargun



Joined: 29 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2018 5:52 pm Reply with quote
I mean, we've got an author saying "my early work contained too much rape: I'm a better author now, and can get the dramatic effects I was trying for without rape, which is good because rape has narrative/enjoyment side-effects that I don't like"

And people are complaining.

This isn't support for author autonomy, is it? Quite the reverse: It's support for books that have rape scenes: the author wants to write less rape and they want him to write more, his own wishes be buggered.

One might conclude that these are two sides of the same coin: that their lack of concern for authorial autonomy is of a piece with their lack of concern for bodily autonomy in their fiction, that really all that this is about is their own personal desires and pleasures without regard for the wishes of anybody else, in sex and writing alike.
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Juno016



Joined: 09 Jan 2012
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2018 10:59 pm Reply with quote
Frog-kun wrote:
I think Kawahara's apology to the voice actors was primarily motivated by his personality rather than external pressures. In the latest Newtype interview, a producer described him as the kind of person who is "always considerate of others", which lines up what a lot of people say about him, including his editor and the fans who meet him in person. Kawahara has also been on record criticising certain aspects of his work in the past, such as Asuna's role in the Fairy Dance arc and the pacing of the Aincrad arc. He's the kind of person who is frank about where he believes he can improve, although I wouldn't go far enough to say that he expresses "shame" about his old work.

It feels to me that Kawahara's apology to the voice actors was unprompted. He wrote a string of tweets preceding the apology saying how much he respects the anime staff. Read in that light, his comment about the anime having more impact than his novels is not criticism of the rape scene. He was doing that typical humble author thing of praising others by lowering himself.

So yeah, I wouldn't say that this case is a good example of the trends being talked about in this article and thread.


I was hoping someone might pick up on this. Thank you!

I'm completely against full censorship (I support limited censorship toward particular audiences--ie. censoring certain broadcasts where something might not be appropriate for the typical audience viewing it, but leaving the market release uncensored). This applies to apologies by creators who feel pressured to apologize for things they may have had purpose behind.

But in many cases, these apologies come out of self-reflection of their own values, not solely because people freaked out and they feel bad. When I made a joke about autism and vaccinations meant to make fun of anti-vaccine groups a few years back, I found out one of the recipients of the joke actually had a brother with autism. He got upset and I apologized, but then a friend of mine jumped in to defend my joke anyway, saying I shouldn't have to apologize for it since it was funny. It's true. The joke could be funny in certain contexts, but in this situation, even I felt it lost its humor. It simply wasn't funny anymore and my other friend deserved an apology. I made that decision myself. It wasn't censorship of my joke.

Frankly, as an artist who draws erotic content that sometimes involves non-consensual sexual interaction, I do not like the censorship of my work (or my person), but I also do not want people viewing my work to feel uncomfortable with what they see. I warn people of the content first because I want to make sure they know what they're getting into. Comfort is relative, so I'm not going to stop just because some people don't like what I draw or think its unethical, but I am going to respect my audience and their comfort level because I do not want my artwork doing the opposite of what I intended it to do in the frst place.
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Actar



Joined: 21 Nov 2010
Posts: 1074
Location: Singapore
PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 4:22 am Reply with quote
samuelp wrote:
I think you're underplaying the Olympic factor actually. TV, government and other more obvious media definitely have it forefront on their minds, but that (and the pervasive media propaganda about it) seep into the general population, and there is definitely a general "we are being watched by the whole world now" sentiment that is growing ever stronger.
It was there beforehand, sure, but the Olympics have hightended it considerably.


Agreed. The exact same thing happened the last time the Olympics were held in Japan.
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Sakagami Tomoyo



Joined: 06 Dec 2008
Posts: 940
Location: Melbourne, VIC, Australia
PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 8:13 pm Reply with quote
Justin wrote:
And it's relatively common for an artist to look over an old work and think that, in retrospect, they may have pushed things too far. Satoshi Kon has said as much about the simulated rape scene in Perfect Blue. ("I think I overdid it," he says in an interview.)

I'll say. I remember a young lady from the anime club I attended being pretty damn shocked by that scene. It's certainly well executed, but it was definitely pushing it way too far.
Marzan wrote:
I think artists should stop apologizing for everything under the sun. It seems to me that the new puritanism we see developing and spreading through social media is not a Western only phenomenon. Sad days when artists feel they have to apologize to appease the loudest screamers online.

One the one hand, I do agree that modern puritanism is not a good thing, and pandering to that will not lead anywhere good. On the other hand... I don't think it's especially puritanical to say "hey, let's cut back a bit on the pedophilia and rape on broadcast TV and easily available magazines, yeah?".
nargun wrote:
I mean, we've got an author saying "my early work contained too much rape: I'm a better author now, and can get the dramatic effects I was trying for without rape, which is good because rape has narrative/enjoyment side-effects that I don't like"

And people are complaining.

This isn't support for author autonomy, is it? Quite the reverse: It's support for books that have rape scenes: the author wants to write less rape and they want him to write more, his own wishes be buggered.

One might conclude that these are two sides of the same coin: that their lack of concern for authorial autonomy is of a piece with their lack of concern for bodily autonomy in their fiction, that really all that this is about is their own personal desires and pleasures without regard for the wishes of anybody else, in sex and writing alike.

Hammer, right on the head of the nail, right there. Fans who are complaining about censorship this, artistic integrity that, always seem to be the people most demanding that the creator of a work pander to them. They're not upset that the author's intentions are being trampled on when the author cuts back on the rape scenes, they're upset they're not getting the rape scenes they want. In the SAO example, cutting back on them is the author's intentions.
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ninjamitsuki



Joined: 15 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 9:13 pm Reply with quote
Finally some people with common sense. Willingly changing your work for the better because you realized you've improved is not "censorship". [/u]
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dambuilder



Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 42
PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2018 9:24 am Reply with quote
It's worth pointing out that, contrary to what a significant chunk of people on the Internet seem to believe, Japan isn't some "censorship-free Wonderland" or that there haven't been major moral scandals rocking the anime & manga world before the dawn of Twitter hot takes. (Not saying, Justin's wrong though. I pretty much agree with all that he wrote - the immediacy of communication certainly has changed the way these things are handled.)

First off, let me say that this whole talk about letting authors write what they want, yadda yadda, has always been bunk. Whether it's in Japan or the West, the *vast* majority of commercial works are produced under strict editorial oversight. You rarely get to see the creator's "pure vision" in mainstream media, unless the creator has reached a significant amount of popularity. The majority of creators however have to make many concessions to their publishers to get published in the first place. This ranges from story issues such as pacing or plot holes to restrictions on what stories you can tell. Many publishers are averse to stories about WWII war crimes - Motomiya Hiroshi wasn't allowed to write about the Nanking Massacre for example. Recreational drug use is another thing you can't have in your manga as Sonoda Ken'ichi complained back in the 90's (he also complained about not being allowed to use the n-word).
So yeah, there's always been a significant amount of "self-censorship" in manga, as is in virtually every mainstream media. Being flexible is one of the main conditions if you want to be commercially succesful.

The other thing is that Japan has had more than it's share of controversies over manga content in the past. The outrage over Nagai Go's Abashiri Ikka should be widely known. But there's more, much more: In the 80's, shounen magazines such as Magazine, Jump and Sunday and shoujo magazines like Gals Life and Popteen all received significant pushback for serializing a bunch of borderline pornographic manga. Gals Life and Popteen didn't survive this pushback. And while Jump cut back on it's graphic content, it made major headlines again in the early 90's, when they had to recall volumes of Bastard!! and Video Girl Ai for lewd content. The much bigger scandal of the 90's however was the "Angel affair", concerning U-Jin's porn manga Angel (which was serialized in Young Sunday back then) which led to all pornographic manga to be visibly labeled as such, effectively scaring the big publishers off of hardcore manga. And in the mid-2000's ShoComi came under hefty fire for it's smutty content (think Kaikan Phrase and the like) - as a matter of effect this affair even made it into congress and Shogakukan had to scramble to get rid of all the smut that made the magazine so popular at the time.

So, there you have it. While the form of communication might be new, the content sure isn't. And it sure hasn't destroyed the medium of manga and anime, nor any other medium for that matter. As a matter of fact, these days we get *more* of *any* medium than ever before and there's no sign of slowing down. All while having easier access to older media than ever before. So, yeah, given these circumstances it's hard for me to take all these doomsday sayers too serious.
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Lord Oink



Joined: 06 Jul 2016
Posts: 876
PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2018 3:43 pm Reply with quote
lossthief wrote:
I've yet to see anyone in this thread (or any of the numerous thread surrounding this topic, be it SAO, Goblin Slayer, or any other show or game in the last few months that made the subject relevant) insist that sexual assault should never be portrayed in fiction. I've seen people argue that it's a far too common plot device. I've seen people criticize specific examples as tasteless or poorly done or outright exploitative. But if you think people are insisting that rape should never, ever be used in a work of fiction, you're tilting and windmills.


Saying "I'm not against this type of content in media, so long as it's handled in this specific, certain way I approve of" is definitely something that's been said though, and essentially means the same thing. It's still insisting a type of content they don''t like not be present in media.

And hey, with Shield Bro about to air in a week, we have the prime opportunity to test this theory.
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NeverConvex
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Joined: 08 Jun 2013
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2018 4:52 pm Reply with quote
What leads you to believe the folks complaining expect a very narrow set of artistic choices to be available to creators for 'this type of content'? I think there's a pretty wide range of choices available while still remaining tasteful and effective.
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Haterater



Joined: 30 Apr 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2018 4:57 pm Reply with quote
Also feel like its a stronger push due to the Olympics. Once its all over, it can be a toss up of things being back to how they were before or sticking to this "censorship". Curious with the Sony game division situation though.
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Chrono1000





PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2018 5:11 pm Reply with quote
nargun wrote:
I mean, we've got an author saying "my early work contained too much rape: I'm a better author now, and can get the dramatic effects I was trying for without rape, which is good because rape has narrative/enjoyment side-effects that I don't like"

And people are complaining.
I think people are mostly commenting on the pro-censorship movement and the people that would censor Goblin Slayer, Sword Art Online, and every single ecchi show if they had the power to do so. Also what Kawahara Reki said was more along the lines that now that Sword Art Online has gone mainstream he would tone down the violence in future light novels which is fairly typical. Just two weeks ago Type-Moon announced a Fate light novel that somewhat looks like an otome game so most franchises try to expand their audience.

nargun wrote:
This isn't support for author autonomy, is it? Quite the reverse: It's support for books that have rape scenes: the author wants to write less rape and they want him to write more, his own wishes be buggered.
I have read hundreds of posts about this topic and I have never seen any post that wanted that. Also if someone is against censorship than they are standing for the rights of the author.

nargun wrote:
One might conclude that these are two sides of the same coin: that their lack of concern for authorial autonomy is of a piece with their lack of concern for bodily autonomy in their fiction, that really all that this is about is their own personal desires and pleasures without regard for the wishes of anybody else, in sex and writing alike.
A person can make a pro-censorship argument about drugs, robbery, sexual assault, murder, or any other crime with the argument that only nice things should be put in fictional stories. Personally I think that mature shows can deal with mature subjects.
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NeverConvex
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2018 5:18 pm Reply with quote
Chrono1000 wrote:
Also what Kawahara Reki said was more along the lines that now that Sword Art Online has gone mainstream he would tone down the violence in future light novels which is fairly typical.


I don't recall the tweet saying anything about the series having 'gone mainstream.' Could you point out where that was said?
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zrnzle500



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2018 5:40 pm Reply with quote
Chrono1000 wrote:
A person can make a pro-censorship argument about drugs, robbery, sexual assault, murder, or any other crime with the argument that only nice things should be put in fictional stories. Personally I think that mature shows can deal with mature subjects.


An argument that no one here has made and only exists in the mouths of strawmen. Devilman Crybaby has just about all of that, and that has not prevented it from being considered one of the best, if not the best, anime of the year. And it is far from the only critically acclaimed series that deals with any number of those or any other mature subject. Yes, mature shows can deal with mature subjects, but just because a show deals with a mature subject does not mean that a show is itself mature or approaches the subject with the care needed. When a show fails to give the subjects the appropriate care, they will be criticized, as with any other aspect of creating a story or work of art that is not handled well, and not matter how much some seek to conflate the two, criticism is not censorship, not even the kinds of criticism one disagrees with, not even when the creator hears these criticisms and decides to adjust accordingly.
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configspace



Joined: 16 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 12:20 pm Reply with quote
I want to know the author's id, not ego which is influenced by social pressure. I want to know what he feels deep down, his impulses, impressions, cravings and desires. I want the author's honne, uncensored, not tatemae, lol.
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Vadara



Joined: 20 Jun 2018
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 12:27 pm Reply with quote
Anybody who thinks that artists just pull stories directly from their heads and never ever criticize their own work, go "maybe I should have done something else", or take criticism into accountm, has never actually made a single creative work in their life. As dambuilder said, you are never getting the original "uncensored" version of whatever the artist created: you're getting the version they've made after months or years of careful adjustment, tweaking, and even often complete remaking of whatever original idea first came to them. An artist changing something or regretting something they did after being criticized for it is not "censorship".
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