Forum

Dewey Donedidit wrote:

Are you certain about that? I only see 11 Tweets in October of 2017 from that account and none of them relate to Vic Mignogna at all. Was the story posted elsewhere perhaps?

The moderator who warned about suspicious Twitter accounts said nothing about the content of what entailed a suspicious account, just a general warning.

It might've been posted elsewhere, I did not dig through her entire twitter history. Either way, though, it's not "suspicious" that a woman who knew Vic over 30 years ago and otherwise isn't interested in anime beyond that her kids like it, wouldn't have posted about Vic before. It's also not suspicious that a middle-aged adult who doesn't use Twitter much other than for personal business doesn't have a lot of followers. You're really grasping at straws here. "Suspicious" Twitter activity is way more obvious than that. (Also, kind of rich for someone who only has a few posts here and whose account was created right in the middle of all this? Rolling Eyes

)

The mods might not have been explicit about it, but if you look at the context of their messages, and what they're responding to, they're clearly talking about a) pro-Vic conspiracy theorizing about the article that ignores the facts of what various ANN staff have pointed out in the thread and on social media, and b) obviously fake screenshots (there was a girl whom some YouTuber impersonated in order to claim she was making up fake stories on Facebook) -- with the common thread that both of these were used for harassment and brigading of victims and their supporters. It's not about people coming forward with allegations of abuse, and not to encourage victim-blaming or dismissing them. I think with all the various warnings in this thread so far, that should be pretty obvious.

Dewey Donedidit wrote:

SailorTralfamadore wrote:

Uh, this is not the type of thing they're talking about in terms of "suspicious Twitter accounts." Her Twitter account has been around for two years, she first told this story in October 2017 over a year before #KickVic, and you can clearly see that she and her story have had the support of several other victims and other people close to this story in the replies, as well as corroborating stories from other victims, also in the replies.

Are you certain about that? I only see 11 Tweets in October of 2017 from that account and none of them relate to Vic Mignogna at all. Was the story posted elsewhere perhaps?

The moderator who warned about suspicious Twitter accounts said nothing about the content of what entailed a suspicious account, just a general warning.

Since the question has been asked I'm just gonna answer it quickly right at the start: someone posted in her replies links to a forum, where a poster made accusations against Vic back in 2017 that were identical (at least as best could be told from the briefer account on the forum) to her story, and she responded that the forum post was actually her, working out some stuff.

Regarding moderator warnings, my warnings were specifically regarding accounts spreading unsubstantiated and/or debunked conspiracy theories. I see earlier in this thread erinnundra did make this warning,

"More reminders to people: don't disparage victims, avoid links to dubious twitter accounts and no conspiracy theories"

after having to delete a bunch of posts. I don't know the full context of his statement and what sort of "dubious" twitter accounts he was encountering (my first guess would be they were related to conspiracy theories, given the rest of the sentence, but I'm not gonna speak for him) but regardless, if you felt Aresef was violating the warning, the proper response would have been to report their post, not back seat mod.

This goes for everyone: the mods can speak for ourselves, we don't need a big back and forth argument about what we did or didn't mean.

ALSO REGARDLESS: This has gotten way, way off topic. We have four different Vic threads right now, and this thread is more specifically about Jamie Marchi's allegations. The tweets being discussed have nothing to do with Marchi's situation, nor do they describe a similar event with hair grabbing, so let's end that line of discussion now.

I met Vic at a convention and he struck me as... off. He was "fake nice" to a lot of his male fans, including me. Rushing through our questions, walking up to me and a few other con-goers in the middle of conversations with a sort of attitude that said he knew he was great... He was just different from the other voice actors from FMA. Aaron Dismuke was a real sweetheart, but Vic? Not so much to his male fans.

Females on the other hand... that's different. I had friends at the convention who, with varying levels of excitement and dread, told me how he was affectionate, huggy, and gave a lot of compliments. I didn't think much of it, or rather, tried not to. But I feel like deep down, I knew that Vic was this sort of person. At the very least, I knew it was a likelihood.

Reading the article and going through each and every post in this thread, painstakingly so for some of them, I have to say I'm not even surprised that this happened. Perhaps surprised that it took so long, but that it happened in the first place? Vic was always going to get in trouble one day because of his hands-on approach to women. When I read that he had been aggressive with his coworkers, I groaned. It's a weird feeling. Disappointed, but not surprised.

You can kind of tell the difference between a polite voice actor with positive love towards their fans, like a Crispin Freeman or a Chuck Huber, and a fame-mad narcissist who views his presence as something to bask in, like Vic Mignogna. It makes me shudder to think that Vic might have been doing this for decades. He might have been traumatizing people even before he voiced Edward Elric, and no one spoke out until recently. I can't even imagine how scared the young ladies he's approached were for years, but I'm glad they can have some degree of closure now.

I've never been the biggest Vic Mignogna fan, especially after meeting him in person, but it's hard to look back on some of my favorite anime with this news made public. Fullmetal Alchemist and several old ADV shows were favorites of mine and I just watched the new Broly movie with some friends. I'm usually good at separating the artist and the person's flaws, but this time I think the pedestal is far too broken.

SailorTralfamadore wrote:

Why does "helping Vic get better" have to happen in the anime industry though? That would mean that he has to be around his victims, and potential new victims, in order to get better. That means he continues to have the easy access to starstruck teenage girls he has at cons. (If you were a parent of a teenage girl who loved anime, would you be ok with cons letting him appear there and get catered to and stay in their hotel while knowing he had this kind of record of interactions with girls?) Instead of thinking about the burden on Vic, maybe think about the burden on his victims? Asking them to stand by and help along their abuser on the road to "redemption" is asking them to put themselves at continued risk and potentially re-traumatize themselves for his sake. I think that's much a bigger burden than him having to find a job elsewhere. Which he probably could easily, given that he's held other jobs before this (just look up his Wikipedia page).

Also tbh, I've seen this cycle happen too many times and for a guy with the lifelong pattern that seems to be emerging here, I'm not sure I'm convinced how much "better" they can get. If that means I'm not being sympathetic or forgiving enough, so be it, but I feel like I so often see men like this get infinite second chances that they just use to find new and more innovative ways to victimize people -- and meanwhile no one ever thinks about the chances and opportunities they took away from their victims. Someone has to look out for them. Might as well be me.

You make good points but I also think he should be allowed to prove he has changed. Let's face it, he's going to much more under the microscope and I'm guessing fewer people will line up to interact with him but for his more ardent fans. He's already said there will be no more physical contact and although feel he's not made a sincere enough apology he has issued one.

I don’t think anybody will line up for him because cons will stop inviting him.

So, serious question - what's the plan? What's the next step?

Arguing about this on this forum seems limited in scope. Our detractors - those who wish to normalized Vic's behavior, dismiss his victims, and celebrate their mysogeny while doing the very least possible to hide their bias and their hatred of those different from them - are already pretty well organized. Multiple Youtube videos. A strong coalition on Reddit and Gab, and their brigading on Twitter and Instagram isn't without merit either. Chan boards (which are still a thing! God am I old!) actively share their pooled research with instructions on how to be dismissive, how to "counter attack", how to "free Vic from the people who care about social justice."

Other than being supportive and making sure these stories are heard, while keeping a consistent narrative and continuing to pull up defunct communities (lost convention forum boards, etc) where these accusations where commonly made... what's the next step?

What do we do, not just to show the next generation of convention attendee that these kind of actions should not and will not be tolerated, but to ensure that as we focus on Vic others who have made similar choices don't fall through the cracks?

Last edited by Aresef on Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:27 am; edited 1 time in total

Sethimothy wrote:

So, serious question - what's the plan? What's the next step?

Arguing about this on this forum seems limited in scope. Our detractors - those who wish to normalized Vic's behavior, dismiss his victims, and celebrate their mysogeny while doing the very least possible to hide their bias and their hatred of those different from them - are already pretty well organized. Multiple Youtube videos. A strong coalition on Reddit and Gab, and their brigading on Twitter and Instagram isn't without merit either. Chan boards (which are still a thing! God am I old!) actively share their pooled research with instructions on how to be dismissive, how to "counter attack", how to "free Vic from the people who care about social justice."

Other than being supportive and making sure these stories are heard, while keeping a consistent narrative and continuing to pull up defunct communities (lost convention forum boards, etc) where these accusations where commonly made... what's the next step?

What do we do, not just to show the next generation of convention attendee that these kind of actions should not and will not be tolerated, but to ensure that as we focus on Vic others who have made similar choices don't fall through the cracks?

I think you're going to see conventions tighten their rules for both attendees and guests. One of the first cons to dis-invite him was Emerald City Comic Con, who coined the phrase "cosplay is not consent," and they have an expansive anti-harassment policy, one that also applies to guests. I think you're going to see a more comprehensive policy adopted at other cons, and you're going to see guests reminded that all these policies go for them too, and being reminded that just because they are a voice actor or writer or whatever, that doesn't mean they can get handsy with 13-year-olds. I can't think of anybody who is as infamous for this behavior as Vic is.

I also think it's on us--all of us--to be more vigilant for this behavior, and not to allow it to be swept under the rug.

Ashabel wrote:

HeWhoSlapsAll wrote:

Pretty much my view of the situation. Unless it comes out that he's committed crimes, at this point it can come across as piling on. He's lost credibility, two roles (aka, fired), is being ostracized and has been disinvited to multiple cons. He's apologized, and promises to change. Punishment and potential atonement. Isn't the point for people to change for the better?

Do we really want this man to completely lose his career forever and hit rock bottom? I just find this weird. Everyone is attacking just him, including other VAs accused of potentially worse actions.

At the end of the day, people should just stay decent.

Except I don't see a single decent thing about the behavior you propose with your argument.

Here is the thing - Vic Mignogna's behavior lasted for fifteen years. During that time, he apologized and promised to change multiple times, only to go back to his behavior as soon as it benefited him. He is outright legendary as a walking nightmare among convention staffers, many of whom have been looking for an excuse to stop inviting him to their cons for years. And thanks to the behavior of both his fans and the usual Neo-Nazi crowd who have become involved in this because they're eager to attack women at every opportunity, he has burned his bridges with an enormous part of the anime community.

With that in mind, what the hell is his career going to be in this industry going forward.

Convention staffers hated him for years, and now they have an excuse to not hold it in anymore.

Other voice actors, both male and female, largely cannot stand him because of a history of sexual harassment and power abuse, as well as the death threats they received from his psychopath fanboys over the last week.

Pretty much everyone in the community who isn't a member of the alt-right or a hardcore Vic fan, wants nothing to do with him anymore.

And yet by your logic, he should go back and work in this environment where he'll be surrounded by people who despise him and are unlikely to ever forgive him every day of his life, all because... IDK because he wasn't persecuted for his behavior earlier? Because he deserves a paycheck? Because you really want your favorite actor to keep getting roles? What?

I don't see a single decent thing about forcing someone to be exposed to a hostile environment in which he turned everyone against him as a result of his own and his fans' behavior. Do feel free to enlighten me.

1) I'm not defending him because he's my "favorite actor". I didn't even know he was Broly or Ed until this week lol. So there's no bias here.

2) So, since I'm not a fan, I must be a Neo-Nazi, or alt-right, correct? Isnt accusing people of being a Nazi/alt-right, aka bigot/racist/sexist, without proof attacking other people? Let me guess, you probably lthink I'm white, too? I wonder why this post hasn't been edited or deleted by the mods...

3) When I said decent I meant everyone should be professional and courteous to each other in general, so we don't end up with situations like this.

4) Yes, he should be allowed to continue his career, regardless if people still dislike him. Be a professional. Plenty of people work with other people they don't like. I don't know if all anime VAs hate him, as you say, but if he's good at his job and is changing for the better now that he's being punished and ostracized, yes, he should eventually be allowed to continue his career.

Unless he's committed a very serious crime.

HeWhoSlapsAll wrote:

4) Yes, he should be allowed to continue his career, regardless if people still dislike him.

If I were a gambling man, I'd take a look at other actors and actresses outside of this fandom who have dealt with similar allegations, then apply it here. You'll probably see less Mignogna at conventions while he continues to ply his trade on non-Union work, and he'll support himself further through his ministry and his side projects.

The truth of the matter is despite years of documented concerning behavior, this isn't likely to affect his bottom line all that much.

Sethimothy wrote:

HeWhoSlapsAll wrote:

4) Yes, he should be allowed to continue his career, regardless if people still dislike him.

If I were a gambling man, I'd take a look at other actors and actresses outside of this fandom who have dealt with similar allegations, then apply it here. You'll probably see less Mignogna at conventions while he continues to ply his trade on non-Union work, and he'll support himself further through his ministry and his side projects.

The truth of the matter is despite years of documented concerning behavior, this isn't likely to affect his bottom line all that much.

Yeah, I don't think all the anime companies get together and say "we'll give him 60 percent less work." They all decide individually, "yes, Vic Mignogna should be in our stuff" or "no, he shouldn't." So I'd go further and say he'll have trouble finding any kind of work in the business, and aside from Anime Matsuri, won't be invited to any events.

pirateaddict wrote:

You make good points but I also think he should be allowed to prove he has changed. Let's face it, he's going to much more under the microscope and I'm guessing fewer people will line up to interact with him but for his more ardent fans. He's already said there will be no more physical contact and although feel he's not made a sincere enough apology he has issued one.

I think the way he can "prove he's changed" is lying low and doing something else for a while, and then returning to the anime industry after he's redeemed himself. Letting him continue in the same pattern, even with some slightly raised scrutiny, when he's again shown no real remorse -- only talked about changing his behavior in a face-saving, reluctant, "I guess this is what I have to do now" sort of way -- is putting too much risk on and asking too much of the victims.

What frustrates me about this is as many people as are willing to give perpetrators "second chances," they never consider the ways that their behavior drums victims out of the industry and loses them second or even first chances. If you're a new voice actor and a well-known name sexually harasses you, speaking up or not is often the choice to continue to have a job or not, because you might be seen as more expendable than he is. Plus, you'll be seen as someone who "makes trouble" which is particularly risky in the freelance world of voice work, where a lot of how people get more work is based on reputation. So in the case where it becomes too much to bear, some women might just choose to leave the industry rather than deal with it anymore. When you're talking about someone who has a decades-long pattern of this like Vic seems to, that could be an incredibly high amount of talent that's been forced out of opportunities in order to give one creep "more chances."

We've seen concrete examples of this in Hollywood: There were a bunch of young actresses who looked really promising in the 90s who suddenly disappeared, and people had wondered for years: what happened? There was never some big bomb or personal scandal to explain their sudden career downturn; they just went away out of nowhere. We now know that it was because they chose to speak up about Harvey Weinstein rather than go along with it and/or stay silent, and he blackballed them from the industry as a result. But it happens in less obvious, more subtle ways, where the perpetrators might not even necessarily intend to drum these people out but do it anyway; here's a good article about how that happens to women in academia.

I sympathize more with the people who've been denied any sort of opportunity because they don't want to be victimized, or didn't get better opportunities because some powerful creepy man decided he didn't like them and didn't put them forward for something, or where it just became so much that going to work became unbearable and the enjoyment they got from doing their dream job was lesser than the violation of being constantly harassed. A lot of why #MeToo has grown is people realizing that our desire to give perpetrators infinite chances denies so many other, equally-if-not-more-talented people a first chance, and we need to uproot the whole system that allows that to occur. I, at least, don't feel like Vic Mignogna is talented enough to justify all the other talent from other VAs that's been squandered in giving him infinite chances.

Which he has already had! Monica Rial spoke up about her and others warning him about his behavior a decade ago and him continuing to do it. Just like now, he refused to believe it was wrong and showed no remorse. Why does he deserve any more, especially on the backs of the women and girls he's hurt with them?

Look everyone, the topic here in Jamie Marchi's claims. If you want to discuss the whole Vic saga in a more generalized sense please just use the original thread, not one of these more specific threads.

OK WTF... I have no idea which side to take or who to trust anymore. There are convincing stories on both sides regarding the allegations and frankly this entire controversy has erupted into the biggest clusterf**k that I've ever seen. I'm just not gonna pick any sides and just sit back and wait and see when and what the final verdict is.

BreathoftheWater wrote:

OK WTF... I have no idea which side to take or who to trust anymore. There are convincing stories on both sides regarding the allegations and frankly this entire controversy has erupted into the biggest clusterf**k that I've ever seen. I'm just not gonna pick any sides and just sit back and wait and see when and what the final verdict is.

I think it's easier to look at the accusers' stories, evaluate their specificity, commonality (similar MO), connections (that is, would they have any way of knowing each other and lining up these stories?), and corroborating accounts (to the extent they are available) and ask yourself "what would they have to gain or lose by lying?" Jamie Marchi and Monica Rial would be ostracized from their industry if they were lying. The woman from his church doesn't have anything to gain at all from telling us her story. Jessie Pridemore is invited to many of the same cons he would attend--and that's precisely the situation where her alleged assault took place.

The people who would deny, deny, deny, you need to weigh what they actually would or wouldn't know about what Vic did or didn't do. So that means dismissing YouTube conspiracy theorists and many others from outside the fandom who are parachuting into these discussions on ANN, Reddit and elsewhere.

Aresef wrote:

BreathoftheWater wrote:

OK WTF... I have no idea which side to take or who to trust anymore. There are convincing stories on both sides regarding the allegations and frankly this entire controversy has erupted into the biggest clusterf**k that I've ever seen. I'm just not gonna pick any sides and just sit back and wait and see when and what the final verdict is.

I think it's easier to look at the accusers' stories, evaluate their specificity, commonality (similar MO), connections (that is, would they have any way of knowing each other and lining up these stories?), and corroborating accounts (to the extent they are available) and ask yourself "what would they have to gain or lose by lying?" Jamie Marchi and Monica Rial would be ostracized from their industry if they were lying. The woman from his church doesn't have anything to gain at all from telling us her story. Jessie Pridemore is invited to many of the same cons he would attend--and that's precisely the situation where her alleged assault took place.

The people who would deny, deny, deny, you need to weigh what they actually would or wouldn't know about what Vic did or didn't do. So that means dismissing YouTube conspiracy theorists and many others from outside the fandom who are parachuting into these discussions on ANN, Reddit and elsewhere.

Not talking about anyone specific, but you don't know who is and isn't lying when it comes to everyone involved. Nor were we there, and thus don't know context. We also don't know everyone's intentions fully (the accused and the accusers). History shows that people have lied when it comes to these things for a multitude of reasons. That's why it's ultimately best to leave things for independent, non-bias parties to investigate.

I think it's fair to say that Vic has been an a$$ to lots of people to varying degrees and has made enemies. He does deserve consequences for that. However, we can't sit here act like groups and communities haven't gone out of their way to create scapegoats. On the other hand, maybe Vic is an immoral human being. We'll never truly know. I'm just of the mindset that based on current accusations, I think he should be allowed to eventually continue his career based on the discretion of any employers. So if someone gives him or denys him a role their should be little fuss. Of course I'll change my assessment of the situation if we find more severe actions of Vic.

Forum - View topic
INTEREST: Rosario + Vampire Dub VA Jamie Marchi Alleges Mignogna Grabbed, Pulled Her Hair

Voice Actor Takaaki Seki Dies at 54

The ANN Aftershow - Will You Watch Solo Leveling Season 2?

Dark Moon: The Blood Altar Volumes 1-2 Manhwa Review

Interview: Voice Actors Rika Hayashi and Hiroki Tōchi Talk About Their New Golf Anime, Tonbo!

Japanese TV Special Ranks Top Anime Songs, as Chosen by Foreign Fans

This Week in Anime - So, Is Sound Euphonium Queerbaiting or Not?

Wonderful Precure! Episodes 1-12 Anime Review

Dead Dead Demon's Dededede Destruction Part 1 Anime Film Review

Eiyuden Chronicle: Hundred Heroes Game Review

Forum - View topicINTEREST: Rosario + Vampire Dub VA Jamie Marchi Alleges Mignogna Grabbed, Pulled Her Hair

Forum

Forum - View topic
INTEREST: Rosario + Vampire Dub VA Jamie Marchi Alleges Mignogna Grabbed, Pulled Her Hair